Kuehne had a brother and I think sister all on tour. They all seemed to have fallen off the golf map. I think I read where Hank found some other lucrative business. He was on the Golf Channel a while back and could get the ball a long way.
Paul
that you can manipulate your hands just before impact at these kinds of speeds. You need the right downswing sequence and retention of angles to get in this impact position. The hands take care of themselves if you can manage not to release them early in the DS.
area of professional expertize makes me think you misunderstand my remarks (usually my lack of communication) -- I am still waiting for one of the forum Bertholyites to show me the "light " of the "correct" training using PHYSIOLOGY
When will the breakthrough of science occur----
is the answer to your question: How do you know....
Fortunately Bertholy works in a way that does not impinge on any physiological limits so you are 'barking up the wrong tree' looking for a 'physiological' explanation of Bertholy.
I think that it might be helpful for you to understand that Bertholy training is incredibly effective for those who are less blessed with physical ability. It can be very useful for someone who cannot naturally do anything very well, the sort of person who has two left feet and bonks themselves in the head while trying to change a light bulb. This sort of person who really could not break 130 without cheating has been able to shoot par after some time often years of Bertholy training. These cases are pretty well documented and render any argument against Bertholy training for the golf swing moot.
Now whether or not Bertholy training could take you from being a hotshot nothing golfer to pro tour level is another question. Maybe you should give it a shot? There is a lot of money out there in spite of the deepening depression!
far as this forum is concerned there dont seem to be any "exceptional" examples --- bertholy doesnt seem to result in improvement at a rate above any other legitimate method (given a person spends quality time applying it) except for the fact that there is no defined goal -- the bertholy proponents state they dont measure success with score --- so with no defined goal other than taking a photo of yourself swinging in your yard --how can you fail ?
with its perfect pysiology and lack of need for Exceptional coordination you would think somebody on here could play their way out of a paper bag . nuff said.
The only thing that Bertholy can truly promise is that if followed correctly and for a sufficient amount of time that you will:
hit the positions that all tour pro's hit
increase your club head speed from what it was
hit the ball first and take a post-impact divot
Now, logic dictates that if you accomplish these things that your score will improve. Does this mean it will happen? The game of golf is sufficiently complex that there is no guarantee of this. Does this mean that a Bertholy practitioner will suddenly become a tour player? Of course not ... that takes talent as well as proper mechanics. We all want to play better, and it is our sincere hope that the goals achieved above (proper mechanics) will lead to better scores. Logic dictates that it is much more difficult to become a better player with poor mechanics than it is with good mechanics. We also think that Bertholy is the best method we've seen to accomplish good mechanics in a reasonable amount of time ... and that it offers some benchmarks so that you can measure your success in achieving these specific goals ... something other than feelings, which is mostly what other teachers offer.
Unfortunately, you ask for the impossible as you seem to think that all Bertholy practitioners should be on tour, and the fact that they are not proves the method's failure. This is nonsense. You conveniently forget that many of today's top teachers were Bertholyites as well as Moe Norman himself, to whom this site is dedicated.
Personally, I've followed many of these other "legitimate" methods you talk about, religiously for years and with much effort. Yet my mechanics were a train wreck (minimal shoulder turn, little use of the lower body, coming over the top, casting, hitting most shots thin/fat, no divots, etc.) After five months with Bertholy I've stopped doing all of these things and my handicap has dropped by 33%. You can see why I hold the other methods with skepticism and am praising Bertholy. You are welcome to your opinion, but my results speak volumes.
measured reply without all the "your an idiot if you dont worship bertholy " baloney. I am glad you found your niche with bertholy , golf is too frustrating to not find some "method" of real improvement.
Since you are in "pro" positions why are you not striking the ball with "pro" results --- listen to my whole argument-- if the position creates the result why is the result not "pro" (not as in on tour but as in -- lots of greens in reg.) peters argument for score is better short game ---but Moe was hitting 18 in reg. all the time --the only short game he needed was putting his full swing was his bread and butter.
That is my argument --if the Position creats the result why are we not seeing "pro" results. better than before is not "pro" When someone speaks of "talent" they usually mean better coordinated --so why not work on coordination instead of position ??
Why the push to get kids involved a early age except for well known ability to devolop at that age. you can show someone a position at any age.
Final question--when you are doing all the Bertrholy things right and still want to improve ---what then?/
thanks again
It does not matter how good your ball striking is if you can't line up straight. Distance control is next and no matter how good your stroke is being perfectly consistent is not such an easy thing to do and is indeed related to talent level. Then of course there is wind and terrain. Also course management knowing what shot to hit when and how to pull it off. Knowing when to play for the pin and when to leave it below the hole. The pro tour is not a pure ball striking contest it is a scoring contest and winning requires a great short game and yes that does include putting.
Ben Hogan is considered by many to be the best ball striker of all time and he did not loose his ball striking ability late in his career but he did loose the ability to win. He simply could not putt well enough. Heck the same happened to Harry Vardon he really had no peer as a ball striker but he did not win as much or as easily as he could have after his bout with tuberculosis because he could not putt like he did before.
It all comes down to talent level at some point. If you are an 18 handicap for 20 years and you study Bertholy for a year or two and drop down to a 6 then you are a mile from pro level but way better then you were before. So the Bertholy method though it failed in this case in your view was a rousing success by any other standard.
You are making a ridiculous judgement by saying that a person must be tour pro if he or she studies and applies the Bertholy method.
a view of how to achieve excellence in any sport or activity. All activities have fundamentals, as does golf. Having good fundamentals does not guarantee success, yet success is almost unattainable without good fundamentals. Let's use typing as a simple analogy to golf. I have friends who type very well with just their two index fingers (the hunt-and-peck method.) I am a touch typist (where every finger is assigned to a key.) Can a hunt-and-peck typist type 100 words a minute? This is very unlikely, but some skilled prestidigitator can probably accomplish it. Does being a touch typist mean that I can automatically type 100 words a minute? No, but back at the end of my touch-typing training, I could type 100 words a minute (I no longer can.) Does being a touch typist mean that I will automatically break the world record for speed typing? Of course not. Even though I have the fundamentals, I need lots of practice and talent to do that. I probably don't have the talent to do so.
Golf is no different. Can I be a good golfer without the fundamentals? Yes. Can I be a very good golfer .. unlikely. Can I be a great golfer ... absolutely not. But this is not a transitive property. Having good fundamentals is no guarantee for success, but to give myself the best chance at success I must absolutely have them.
There's more to talent than coordination. Do I have the talent to interpret course and weather conditions well and react to them appropriately? Do I have the genes which give me the optimum flexibility and strength to hit a ball well in all conditions, and to avoid injury? Do I have the mental toughness to not give up when my competitor hits an impossible shot and wins the hole, etc.
As to your questions as to how to improve once your fundamentals are sound ... maybe you should ask Tiger this question. Tigers fundamentals were probably sound by the age of 6. So how did he improve ... how does the worlds greatest continue to improve? Some ideas are: chipping, putting, mental game, strength training, flexibility, etc., etc., etc.
mcirishman57 (Login mcirishman57) SAGF Members 2001
McEnroe
July 10 2009, 2:13 PM
Back in my high school days I was a fairly accomplished tennis player and really began "working on my game". McEnroe, Connors, Borg era. Mac was my favorite. My dad, who was my coach, sensed where I was going ( where I thought I wanted to go ) and sat me down after practice one day - "You know, there are probably 1,000 players in the world that have the skills Mac does. ( pause for effect) The difference is Mac has talent." I looked at him funny..."Talent is here (points to head) and here ( points to heart ). I don't want to discourage you, but you don't have the skills, and you will never have the talent". It sounded harsh at the time but it was true. Still, I continued to develop my game, the highlight being when I became the only enlisted man to reach the semi-finals of the East Coast Regional All Navy Tournament. Then I had kids, began coaching and playing soccer, and blew my ACL out - end of highly competitive stop/start sports for me. Thank God for golf!
All tour pros can hit it well. Some pros rank higher than Tiger in most ball striking stats. But some go decades without winning, and some never win. Tiger is about 1 outa 3.
I do agree that I score better now than I did before I improved my ball striking, but I know that to get to scratch I must get way better with the putter, from 70 yards in, and around the greens - LOTS.
and fundamentals - many moons ago before bad knees I played tennis a lot. Flash forward 30 years and my son wants to play on his HS team so we start playing (me in a brace). He had almost NO fundamentals. So much for 3 years of tennis lessons and camps ($$). So I work with him on fundamentals - bend your knees, get the racket back early, watch the ball... So this year he made the JV team and had a 13-1 record. He will not be a pro nor a college scholarship player but he is far better than he was a year ago when he couldn't get high enough on the ladder to make the team.
Although I felt bad about the $$s and no fundmentals taught, I did not feel as bad a I would have with one of my son's friends who's parents payed $$$$ for private lessons and still didn't learn those fundamentals (and dropped trying for the team).
As Allen said ALL sports have fundmentals and while good fundamentals won't make you a star, bad fundamentals will always limit your ultimate level of achievement.
mcirishman57 (Login mcirishman57) SAGF Members 2001
Don't forget
July 10 2009, 3:50 PM
Michael Jordan didn't get serious til his junior year! You never know.
These f%^*%%ing "pros" in every damn sport they cheat their customers.
I have not played tennis for a long time, long before the current strong western grips and the loopy heavy top spin forehands...I played the Bill Tilden type of groundstroke - "traditonal" driving of the ball. One fundamental my dad hammered home to me constantly was "going down to the ball" and keeping the racket parallel to the ground, especially when volleying. Sigh, that type of tennis is a "young man's game". Tennis is like golf though in that it can be enjoyed pretty much til you drop. My dad is 85 and still plays three times a week - "friendly" doubles match. It does take at least one other player , or in my dad's case three, so golf has it over tennis in that regard.
I'm going to watch some tennis this weekend and see what fundamentals are still there from when I played. I know most players play with their lower body much more open to the line on their forehands, and it seems they are much more wristy these days. Perhaps can even load some youtube video in my golf software
how we parallel - My reference for Tennis which I got for my son is 'How to Play Better Tennis' by Tilden! His team is full of the strong western grip, loopy forehand and 2 handed backhand crowd. They all play the same and they are all used to playing against the same by and large. My son did not have the strong grip and by the time we'd finished he had a good basic drive but his shots (like mine) stayed low. That strong western grip is not so easy on low shots I think that was a big part of his record.
We did find a local tennis place that was better though they still did not focus on the basics to my satisfaction but he was getting those from me and the new place was more physically challenging.
mcirishman57 (Login mcirishman57) SAGF Members 2001
The Principles of Power
July 10 2009, 8:33 PM
Couldn't resist. Amazing footage of federer all over youtube, here's one:
Extreme "lag", head back, and weight forward at impact. Oh yeah, his "hitting" arm is still bent at impact..imagine that!
Common power dynamics across all sports? Yeah, that's the ticket.
Was so inspired went out and hit two shag bags thinking of nothing but maximum trail wrist bend and head back....100 yard gap wedges with a 1/4 back swing...different world living in the principles of power.
This message has been edited by mcirishman57 on Jul 10, 2009 8:35 PM
considerable flexibility is good not only in the wrist but in the shoulder and elsewhere. The external rotation of a pro tennis player's shoulder when serving (or a MLB pitcher throwing or a javelin thrower) is 'freaky' when you see it in slow motion but is what's required for that level of performance. This is why you need to train your body to accomodate easily the required positions for a golf swing.
What are you afraid of?
Aquire the Bertholy manual, read it, study it and live it. Take a chance on becoming exceptional instead of sitting around making up excuses as to why it wont work for you.
in fact it take NO hand/eye coordination to get in the position and keeping it on line is just a matter of setup. It is only those that attempt to achieve it with hand/eye coordination that have a problem with consistency and that is a necessary problem given the physiology of humans.
Peter - about the photo of Hank and your comment to IZZY that
July 9 2009, 11:26 AM
it takes NO hand/eye coordination to get in the position and keeping it on line is just a matter of setup.
------------------------------------------------
Hand/eye coordination- can that be called hand/arm coordination?
Can you make a good golf swing without trying to consciously
swing or manipulate your arms or hands?
Hank has a lean to the right with his upper body
Is that position easier to get into with a proper setup?
What is that setup?
Hank's trail elbow looks like it's poked into his body.
Does the lean of the upper body to the right make it easier
to tuck and poke the arm and elbow and retain the angle?
Can you make a good golf swing without trying to consciously
swing or manipulate your arms or hands?
The best swings ARE done without consciously trying to swing or manipulate your hands or arms. It is also possibly to make a good swing where you consciously set your arms early in the swing and do nothing else consciously with them after that. Not only have I done that but I've seen video of some others here that have tried it with similar results (hands well ahead at impact, clean contact, greater distance).
Hank has a lean to the right with his upper body
Is that position easier to get into with a proper setup?
I don't think it is. The lean away from the target requires you to either put your torso in that position in the backswing and not change it in the downswing or to get there in the downswing.
Hank's trail elbow looks like it's poked into his body.
Does the lean of the upper body to the right make it easier
to tuck and poke the arm and elbow and retain the angle?
The lean does not make it easier to get your trail elbow there but it does mean that when your trail elbow gets there is will be closer to the target than if you did not have the lean.
You might try taking some swings reproducing this:
I guess he gets the club face square for impact. Looks like that is going to take a lot of hands snap roll. Also looks like he has right wrist cocked. Thought right wrist cocking was a no no.
Paul
I created a drill based on this clip and have hit MANY balls this way. No hand action required at all to square the clubface. the continuation of the clip shows his trail elbow never leaves his trail side and his trail wrist is still bent at impact. All it takes to square he clubface is that your trail forearm continue it's path while pivoting on your hip. VERY simple and VERY consistent.
Hogan's grip was considerably different then your grip resulting in a different move late in the downswing. Otherwise you would not have your SA straight line motion advantage?
Hogan's trail wrist is cocked and there is going to be considerable rotation to square the clubhead at impact. Of course Hogan did things to avoid hooking that most folks don't need to be concerned with.
used the phrase 'arms of wood' to describe what would be ideal at the beginning of the downswing. Bertholy uses the term 'keystone' to describe the position and muscle action that should be maintained from early in the backswing. If you do what Bertholy describes you will also do what Dante says is best.
If you do either of these you will understand that 'hitting' and/or 'guiding' are not terms that are useful for describing to others what happens.
later on in the down swing, Dante says to
try to make your hands move faster as
you approach impact.
Do Bertholy's teachings concur?
I am hitting the ball good by swinging
with what feels like dead arms from start
to finish, and wonder if trying to "speed up"
my hands near impact is a good idea.
When i try to do it, it seems to interfere
with what the club wants to do on it's own.
Their speed adds somewhat [my emphasis] to the speed of the clubhead.
I think it is a mistake to consider this 'someewhat' to be more significant than stated given the preceding 16 pages! Bertholy also talks about a supplemental 'tug' of the lead shoulder that you might choose to implements but again not at the cost of any of the rest of what he says.
Note that Dante is specific that the point of moving the hands faster is to move the center of the 'secondary system of rotation'. An implication of this is that the hands move together - there is no 'hit'.
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You never know.
![[linked image]](http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k215/NotAGeek_2006/FedererlagandheadBack.jpg)
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