none are 'officially' neutral (though with IMA you might be closer to it depending on your results in 'balancing' the club). Most would be considered 'closed' in CG terms (note that LPG top of swing has no direct comparison to CG).
if you are not 'toe up to toe up' you will probably not do the swing for very long because of damage to your wrist. The 'square' club face is only to just past impact then your lead arm needs to rotate as it reaches its limit of adduction. You would be shut at horizontal in the downswing but still somewhat toe up.
If you want a swing that really is different in this regard it would be the Blake swing.
The true Heard Super Swing (not Jerry's) is clubface square to the path on the back and downswing. The clubhead will not be toe up when the clubshaft is parallel to the ground on the backswing which is the normal check point. It will be closed or less then toe up unless the player deviates from the instruction. On the through swing the clubhead could be toe up at the shaft parallel point if the golfer holds off the release. In most cases the clubhead is rotated closed by that point.
You have an extreme forward bend ala Blake the club face will not be horizontal at club horizontal in the downswing and unless you want wrist pain it will not be a club horizontal in follow through.
I don't normally take 'toe up' to mean club face perfectly vertical. If that is the meaning for 'toe up' then none of the SA swings are necessarily 'toe up to toe up. In Moe's swing the club face is short of vertical when the club is horizontal in the downswing and past vertical when the club is horizontal in follow through. Give that so few have the club perfectly vertical I take 'toe- up' to be not horizontal in normal use.
that toe is not vertical but it is only 10-20 degrees away from Dolman's HSS position in the book and pretty close to Jerry Heard's club face position at the equivalent point in the back swing.
I don't know how many degrees it is 20 could be about right. At the top of swing the difference will be greater as the rotation continues in a 'normal' swing. There are a lot of complicated factors including the plane of the swing. With a very flat swing it is possible to get close to toe up at the parallel point with not rotation of the clubface relative to the plane. I looked at my own swing with a 9 iron and guessed the difference to be in that range maybe up to 25 degrees or so. If you use the Heard swing what difference do you see at the shaft parallel point compared to your IMA swing?
I think that a lot of folks develop hook problems after a period of time using HSS because they begin to to reverse rotate the clubface on the backswing due to getting used to the feeling of keeping it square and then in an effort to keep that 'good' feeling they begin to over do it. LOL something that happens with a lot of swing fixes...
The pros that I looked at appear to me more open at shaft parallel to the ground on the downswing then they are on the backswing. I am not sure if that is generally true or not but I suspect that it is.
I just found that this has been discussed mucho in the archives. The consensus was that only HSS and Mindy Blake swings were not toe up to toe up. (But there was dissent of course.)
It's funny, though, that in some of the earlier NG materials I've seen, even photos of Todd Graves in their book, the clubhead is shut at the top ala Mindy Blake. It seems to depend on the era and maybe even the instructor at NG?
To be that shut at the top, you'd not likely be toe up at the normal parallel checkpoint in the backswing.
I'm asking because I had a GREAT range session using the Mindy Blake swing (Version 1.0), and I was noodling on if and how that arm motion might have been incorporated into a regular SA swing. From the archives it sounds as if most who did something like that ended up fighting hooks.
Blake was specific about a more inclined torso and vertical swing plane. That is not the case with HSS so the club face is not horizontal in the downswing with HSS. Blake also has you keep your arms from 'rolling' in follow through ideally (per his demonstrations) until your arms are horizontal in follow through again keeping the club face horizontal. With HSS the distance past impact for a horizontal club face will depend on your max adduction bot it will not be more than about 20 deg past vertical.
![[linked image]](http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/slantdicular/jmToeUp.jpg)
