I didn't read the whole thread but I think I can offer something that might help. Dan Shaguer a Mike Austin student describes the wrist action like this:
Hold your right hand up fingers pointing to the sky. Flap your hand back and forth as fast as you can.
Now take your left hand and grab your right wrist. Make your right wrist go completely limp. Now use your left hand to "shake" your right wrist back and forth.
See how much fast it goes. by being relaxed and letting gravity from the swing release the wrist you will increase your swing speed not inhibit it.
Here is a look at me moving my wrist using muscle power vs. Tiger's wrist movement on a full swing.
It looks to me that my wrist is moving farther in the same amount of time meaning that somebody who is not very fast (me) can flex the wrist using muscle power faster then the wrist flexes in Tiger's swing. What do you think?
It is impossible to consistently cause a muscle contraction at the right time and, per Jorgensen, the advantage to be gained at the cost of consistency is minimal (because of the mass of the club so it's not just how fast the muscles can move).
Tiger's arm is moving and accelerating and
his wrist is releasing relative to a speeding arm.
You are just flapping your wrist. There are other
factors too. Try again.
LOL, my disagreement is with this statement by Peter:
That is an indication that anyone that uses their muscles to move the club in release would be necessarily producing a motion that is slower than it would be with correct (pro) technique.
My experiment shows that the muscles can move plenty fast enough which means that if they were fired at the precisely correct moment then clubhead speed would be increased...
"HRUMPH...take that, it's settled..." answer to you, so typical and a perfect one liner from him that summarizes his "approach". I guess it just struck me as funny in my over tired but yet can't sleep state.
Your experiment applies no force which would be required in a 'small muscle' swing which was the (LPG) topic of discussion. My statement very specifically says ...uses their muscles to move the club in release.... So like I said originally - do the same experiment with a club in your hand.
My experiment applies no force? LOL it was enough to sting my hand.
My experiment proved my point:
The muscles can move fast enough that activating them at the right time will not slow down the clubhead. It probably would in fact add speed.
that was not what the comment said nor what might be inferred by the context of the discussion.
Your point has been demonstrated by Jorgensen and documented by me here. I have also documented that there is no answer to an ability to consistently do it at the right time and that Jorgensen advised against it.
There have been studies published that indicate the rate of movement at the trail wrist of a pro during release is faster than could be done through muscular contraction. That is an indication that anyone that uses their muscles to move the club in release would be necessarily producing a motion that is slower than it would be with correct (pro) technique.
LOL you said it very clearly and trying to say you didn't say it is counter productive...
and when you can do your exercise using your muscles to move a club ('uses their muscles to move the club in release') with equivalent speed then you will have a point that contradicts that statement in the context that the statement was made because the study was only about a golf swing which involves using a golf club.
You would have to be a complete idiot to think that the wrist could move a clubhead 100 miles per hour isolated. That logic is so ridiculous I cannot believe that you would even put it forward. So no I will not try the experiment using a club. Believe it or not I am not a complete idiot...
FOR THE LAST TIME THE POINT IS THAT THE WRIST CAN MOVE FAST ENOUGH THAT IT COULD ADD SPEED TO THE CLUBHEAD IF THE MUSCLES WHERE FIRED AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME.
The experiment that I did proves this statement false:
There have been studies published that indicate the rate of movement at the trail wrist of a pro during release is faster than could be done through muscular contraction. That is an indication that anyone that uses their muscles to move the club in release would be necessarily producing a motion that is slower than it would be with correct (pro) technique.
The movement of the trail wrist is not limited by the SPEED of muscular contraction.
Regards, Herbert
This message has been edited by gHerbert on Apr 10, 2012 1:20 AM
to call JK a complete idiot. If you read the post to which I was responding you would have seen that the poster said that he was unsure about 'big muscle' vs 'small muscle' theories referring to JK's ideas that most of club head speed comes from 'rolling the forearms' non LPG swings.
The movement of the club swung by a pro is faster than can be produced with contraction of the muscles that manipulate the trail wrist. That is an indication that the power source for moving the club is not the trail wrist and that is the point of 'big muscle' vs 'small muscle' and the point of my comment. WHETHER FOR THE FIRST TIME OR THE LAST THAT IS JUST A FACT CONFIRMED BY A NUMBER OF STUDIES.
Also note that I have pointed you to a post I made years ago noting per Jorgensen that if a torque would be applied at just the right time that it could increase club head speed; though he advised against it. That concept is hardly new to me and has also been confirmed in simulations though not to my knowledge observed in any study of a pros swing.
It is also the case that grip pressure studies show that pros have near zero grip pressure from the trail hand at impact which goes to 0 soon after impact; an indication that the trail hand is not keeping up with the club.
its that simple due to you cant activate the muscles to provide speed as that would inhibit the action itself.
creating a loss of speed.
that is why science is better than personal forum experiences.
I added a 50 yard driver distance to a pro swing by decreasing muscle contractions.
personal experience not passed peer review. He didn't care though as he kicked some distance.
I re-read some of this thread and found that I am not
smart enough to understand its intricacies. Oh well.
It did cause me to reflect that during the Masters there
were a large number of shots played where the pros trail
hands came completely off their clubs and miserable shots
resulted. Well there was one where the pro was pleasantly
surprised. The others were hamburger.
There have been studies published that indicate the rate of movement at the trail wrist of a pro during release is faster than could be done through muscular contraction. That is an indication that anyone that uses their muscles to move the club in release would be necessarily producing a motion that is slower than it would be with correct (pro) technique.
Herbert takes that statement to imply 'rate of movement' without a club partly, it seems, based on the thought that 'only an idiot' would think that you would believe this was true while holding a club. He also believes it is possible for action of the trail wrist to increase clubhead speed.
My position is that my statement explicitly says 'to move the club' and given the context of the discussion about JK, who believed it was possible to do this with the trail wrist alone, this is the way my statement should be interpreted. I also noted that I said 9 years ago that Jorgensen modeled increasing club head speed with action of the trail wrist (positive wrist torque); so Herbert's supposition was not new to me.
I suspect that Herbert would have wanted to see my first sentence say something like:
There have been studies published that indicate the rate of movement at the trail wrist of a pro during release is faster than could be done through muscular contraction of the trail wrist alone moving the club.
As opposed to my putting it in my second sentence and expecting discussion context to infer meaning.
This is perhaps an example of what happens when you do a search and pull a quote out of a 6 year old discussion and don't research the context.
I guess what I take from the discussion is this:
The 'muskels' in the forearm control the wrist and
can rotate it counter or clockwise, flex it, supinate
it or restrain it or combinations thereof. I don't
want my brain connected to my trail wrist any more than
allowing it to flag and release on its own. For
my purposes whether forced wrist action could add
speed is not a concern.
![[linked image]](http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt117/slantdicular/wristSpeed.jpg)
I guess it just struck me as funny in my over tired but yet can't sleep state.