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Wrist movement

April 3 2012 at 9:18 PM

  (Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

This seems really hard for me to believe:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052/message/1166821649/Release

What movement exactly are we talking about here?

Regards, Herbert

 
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cd
(Login birdbump)

probably

April 4 2012, 5:00 AM 

The use of the wrist as a free hinge.

But we like to meddle don't we?

 
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jjgolf
(Login jiujitsugolf)
SAGF Members 2004

wrist action

April 4 2012, 5:33 PM 

I didn't read the whole thread but I think I can offer something that might help. Dan Shaguer a Mike Austin student describes the wrist action like this:

Hold your right hand up fingers pointing to the sky. Flap your hand back and forth as fast as you can.

Now take your left hand and grab your right wrist. Make your right wrist go completely limp. Now use your left hand to "shake" your right wrist back and forth.

See how much fast it goes. by being relaxed and letting gravity from the swing release the wrist you will increase your swing speed not inhibit it.

Does this make sense?

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Don't see it...

April 4 2012, 5:53 PM 

Looking at high speed video I just don't see the trail wrist moving all that fast from 6/100s through impact...

Also depending on your grip and swing mechanics the trail wrist can move in a lot of different ways during that time.

Regards, Herbert

 
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Herbert
(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Experiment

April 5 2012, 10:08 PM 

Here is a look at me moving my wrist using muscle power vs. Tiger's wrist movement on a full swing.
[linked image]
It looks to me that my wrist is moving farther in the same amount of time meaning that somebody who is not very fast (me) can flex the wrist using muscle power faster then the wrist flexes in Tiger's swing. What do you think?

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

Different

April 5 2012, 11:46 PM 

Put a club in your hand and then do the check.

Peter

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Irrelevant

April 6 2012, 7:02 AM 

The question is whether the muscles can move as fast which they can. This means that activating the muscles can speed the club up.

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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Activating muscles...

April 6 2012, 2:42 PM 

can only speed the club up if:

o They provide a positive torque and

o If that torque is provided at the proper time

It is impossible to consistently cause a muscle contraction at the right time and, per Jorgensen, the advantage to be gained at the cost of consistency is minimal (because of the mass of the club so it's not just how fast the muscles can move).

Peter

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

No argument...

April 6 2012, 2:53 PM 

happy.gif


 
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cd
(Login birdbump)

bogus experiment

April 6 2012, 12:42 PM 

Tiger's arm is moving and accelerating and
his wrist is releasing relative to a speeding arm.
You are just flapping your wrist. There are other
factors too. Try again.

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Bogus comments....

April 6 2012, 2:51 PM 

LOL, my disagreement is with this statement by Peter:
That is an indication that anyone that uses their muscles to move the club in release would be necessarily producing a motion that is slower than it would be with correct (pro) technique.

My experiment shows that the muscles can move plenty fast enough which means that if they were fired at the precisely correct moment then clubhead speed would be increased...

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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While...

April 6 2012, 4:20 PM 

your experiment is interesting my statement comes from a published study. When your work can pass peer review there will be something to discuss.

Peter

 
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McIrishman57
(Login mcirishman57)
SAGF Members 2001

LOL

April 6 2012, 7:21 PM 

I just cracked up when I read that....

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: LOL

April 6 2012, 9:34 PM 

What the heck are you laughing about?

I guess that my incredibly sophisticated science is probably to difficult for you to understand? That's okay I still consider you my friend anyway!

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Login mcirishman57)
SAGF Members 2001

No, it was Peter's

April 7 2012, 11:03 AM 

"HRUMPH...take that, it's settled..." answer to you, so typical and a perfect one liner from him that summarizes his "approach". wink.gif I guess it just struck me as funny in my over tired but yet can't sleep state.

Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence
The MGS Approach
The MGS Forum




Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Oh

April 7 2012, 2:20 PM 

Never mind then... Sorry.

Herbert

 
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Swing Like Moe
(Login gsw)
SAGF Members 2006

Re: No, it was Peter's

April 9 2012, 12:50 AM 

Thats right you do have a new baby in the house. Sleep is hard to come by with a new baby, if I remember correctly?


Good luck with the new baby.

Stan

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Interesting

April 6 2012, 8:37 PM 

Is your statement an exact quote? Are you my peer?

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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The journal...

April 8 2012, 9:25 PM 

where you publish will determine the peers.

Peter

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Weak

April 9 2012, 12:34 AM 

Laughably weak. happy.gif

That the best you can do?

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

Perhaps so...

April 9 2012, 10:51 AM 

but true none the less.

Peter

 
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cd
(Login birdbump)

Herbert

April 6 2012, 9:42 PM 

You should invent a spring-loaded nunchuck
that you could release with a button at just
the right instant. happy.gif

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Gasp!

April 9 2012, 12:36 AM 

That my friend would be a violation of the rules! You can't be serious???? Or perhaps it would just be for experimental purposes???

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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The discussion was....

April 9 2012, 11:13 AM 

about:

I really don't know about the success of big muscle theory over small muscle theory. ..... Is the release caused by the rolling of the forearms a passive thing or is it something that you have to do at the exact moment it is required. Will a big muscle swing make the release something you just let happen?

Your experiment applies no force which would be required in a 'small muscle' swing which was the (LPG) topic of discussion. My statement very specifically says ...uses their muscles to move the club in release.... So like I said originally - do the same experiment with a club in your hand.

Peter

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: The discussion was....

April 9 2012, 3:30 PM 

My experiment applies no force? LOL it was enough to sting my hand.

My experiment proved my point:
The muscles can move fast enough that activating them at the right time will not slow down the clubhead. It probably would in fact add speed.

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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While that may be your point...

April 9 2012, 4:32 PM 

that was not what the comment said nor what might be inferred by the context of the discussion.

Your point has been demonstrated by Jorgensen and documented by me here. I have also documented that there is no answer to an ability to consistently do it at the right time and that Jorgensen advised against it.

Peter

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: While that may be your point...

April 9 2012, 4:41 PM 

There have been studies published that indicate the rate of movement at the trail wrist of a pro during release is faster than could be done through muscular contraction. That is an indication that anyone that uses their muscles to move the club in release would be necessarily producing a motion that is slower than it would be with correct (pro) technique.

LOL you said it very clearly and trying to say you didn't say it is counter productive...

Regards, Herbert

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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That is what I said....

April 9 2012, 10:11 PM 

and when you can do your exercise using your muscles to move a club ('uses their muscles to move the club in release') with equivalent speed then you will have a point that contradicts that statement in the context that the statement was made because the study was only about a golf swing which involves using a golf club.

Peter

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Your feet are planted firmly in the air...

April 10 2012, 1:06 AM 

You would have to be a complete idiot to think that the wrist could move a clubhead 100 miles per hour isolated. That logic is so ridiculous I cannot believe that you would even put it forward. So no I will not try the experiment using a club. Believe it or not I am not a complete idiot...

FOR THE LAST TIME THE POINT IS THAT THE WRIST CAN MOVE FAST ENOUGH THAT IT COULD ADD SPEED TO THE CLUBHEAD IF THE MUSCLES WHERE FIRED AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME.

The experiment that I did proves this statement false:
There have been studies published that indicate the rate of movement at the trail wrist of a pro during release is faster than could be done through muscular contraction. That is an indication that anyone that uses their muscles to move the club in release would be necessarily producing a motion that is slower than it would be with correct (pro) technique.

The movement of the trail wrist is not limited by the SPEED of muscular contraction.

Regards, Herbert


    
This message has been edited by gHerbert on Apr 10, 2012 1:20 AM


 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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It's not nice...

April 10 2012, 8:39 PM 

to call JK a complete idiot. If you read the post to which I was responding you would have seen that the poster said that he was unsure about 'big muscle' vs 'small muscle' theories referring to JK's ideas that most of club head speed comes from 'rolling the forearms' non LPG swings.

The movement of the club swung by a pro is faster than can be produced with contraction of the muscles that manipulate the trail wrist. That is an indication that the power source for moving the club is not the trail wrist and that is the point of 'big muscle' vs 'small muscle' and the point of my comment. WHETHER FOR THE FIRST TIME OR THE LAST THAT IS JUST A FACT CONFIRMED BY A NUMBER OF STUDIES.

Also note that I have pointed you to a post I made years ago noting per Jorgensen that if a torque would be applied at just the right time that it could increase club head speed; though he advised against it. That concept is hardly new to me and has also been confirmed in simulations though not to my knowledge observed in any study of a pros swing.

It is also the case that grip pressure studies show that pros have near zero grip pressure from the trail hand at impact which goes to 0 soon after impact; an indication that the trail hand is not keeping up with the club.

Peter

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Re: It's not nice...

April 11 2012, 2:14 AM 

I did not call anyone an idiot, your statement is wrong. You are really pissing me off, so this is the end of this discussion.

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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"You would have to be a complete idiot to...."

April 11 2012, 8:38 AM 

That's what you said happy.gif

Peter

 
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(Login svensknlp)

no

April 9 2012, 4:39 PM 

its that simple due to you cant activate the muscles to provide speed as that would inhibit the action itself.
creating a loss of speed.
that is why science is better than personal forum experiences.
I added a 50 yard driver distance to a pro swing by decreasing muscle contractions.
personal experience not passed peer review. He didn't care though as he kicked some distance.

cant do that faster than the body does it.

 
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(Login gHerbert)
SAGF Members 2001

Unfortunately

April 10 2012, 1:26 AM 

you don't seem to grasp the point of the post. Maybe you could try reading the thread again?

Regards, Herbert

 
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cd
(Login birdbump)

Dang

April 11 2012, 8:14 AM 

I re-read some of this thread and found that I am not
smart enough to understand its intricacies. Oh well.

It did cause me to reflect that during the Masters there
were a large number of shots played where the pros trail
hands came completely off their clubs and miserable shots
resulted. Well there was one where the pro was pleasantly
surprised. The others were hamburger.

 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
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Explanation

April 11 2012, 9:18 AM 

In a discussion about JK who believes that 50% of club head speed comes from the movement of the trail wrist (you can skip to the bottom) I responded saying:

There have been studies published that indicate the rate of movement at the trail wrist of a pro during release is faster than could be done through muscular contraction. That is an indication that anyone that uses their muscles to move the club in release would be necessarily producing a motion that is slower than it would be with correct (pro) technique.

Herbert takes that statement to imply 'rate of movement' without a club partly, it seems, based on the thought that 'only an idiot' would think that you would believe this was true while holding a club. He also believes it is possible for action of the trail wrist to increase clubhead speed.

My position is that my statement explicitly says 'to move the club' and given the context of the discussion about JK, who believed it was possible to do this with the trail wrist alone, this is the way my statement should be interpreted. I also noted that I said 9 years ago that Jorgensen modeled increasing club head speed with action of the trail wrist (positive wrist torque); so Herbert's supposition was not new to me.

I suspect that Herbert would have wanted to see my first sentence say something like:

There have been studies published that indicate the rate of movement at the trail wrist of a pro during release is faster than could be done through muscular contraction of the trail wrist alone moving the club.

As opposed to my putting it in my second sentence and expecting discussion context to infer meaning.

This is perhaps an example of what happens when you do a search and pull a quote out of a 6 year old discussion and don't research the context.

Peter

 
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cd
(Login birdbump)

Okay, thanks

April 11 2012, 10:19 AM 

I guess what I take from the discussion is this:
The 'muskels' in the forearm control the wrist and
can rotate it counter or clockwise, flex it, supinate
it or restrain it or combinations thereof. I don't
want my brain connected to my trail wrist any more than
allowing it to flag and release on its own. For
my purposes whether forced wrist action could add
speed is not a concern.

 
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