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Video of the new Minimalist Single Plane Golf Swing

December 20 2012 at 12:13 PM
Ham  (Login hammeredit)
SAGF Members 2001

 
Below is a link to my new Minimalist Single Plane Golf Swing. Many are aware of my and others here belief that the Minimalist Golf swing posted about on the Internet is so difficult to follow that nobody so far has been able match certain simple to follow instructions. Not one MGS player has managed to not cock their wrists as is recommended in the directions for the swing, which by the way is far from Minimalist. wink.gif

There is more info on Youtube for those who are interested. Just for your info before watch you will be allowed to cock your wrists if you like with the Minimalist Single Plane Golf swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vX8miqpvA

Best regards,

Ham



    
This message has been edited by hammeredit on Dec 20, 2012 12:14 PM


 
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(Login mcirishman57)
SAGF Members 2001

Hahahahha

December 20 2012, 12:46 PM 

Nice swing as I said before, but you are the only one that finds the MGS instruction complex. Fereal dude!

BTW, your instruction on the pre-turn and such is messed up. wink.gif Twisting the torso isn't hard ...I show in many of my videos how easy it is! Most people don't make enough of a twist, so they don't get the benefit. Your advice to pre-turn as much as comfortable is flawed for that reason.

Again, that is a nice swing you have there, but as you have said before, you can swing with just about any method, and have demonstrated as such. You have been golfing since your youth....

BTW BTW - I have been posting for a over a year my single plane / single axis version of MGS, even demonstrating most recently a version that includes using the "old Moe" Gravves / NG set up. Nothing new here in your video.

Nice try home slice!

Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence
The MGS Approach
The MGS Forum



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
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The only joke....

December 20 2012, 1:27 PM 

is in the way MGS is presented. The instruction if followed as taught is anything but "minimalist". If followed as taught it will also ruin one's golf swing instead of make it better. As of yet luckily nobody has accomplished the no wrist cock at the top which is an important fundamental of that swing. Isn't it strange that NOBODY can do that??? People who have improved have done so as the only part of the method that they have done is the setup. After that they just swing. Which would fit the minimalist definition. The rest of the instruction should just be tossed in the garbage pail where it belongs. wink.gif

You can twist all you like, I prefer a pre-turn as I feel it simplifies the whole concept.

My swing is NOT a version of MGS. It is a stand alone entity. The Minimalist Single Plane Golf Swing.

Best regards,

Ham


 
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McIrishman57
(Login mcirishman57)
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You have need for English lessons

December 21 2012, 4:20 PM 

because I cannot believe you are that un-intelligent.

#1 You keep saying it is bad instruction, but admit you have not read any of her work except that one page.

#2 You keep saying MGS is difficult and complex - while every other person that has opined on the subject has said the opposite.

#3 you claim knowledge of the kineticc chain and ideal bio-mechaincs for golf, but can't grasp the simple MGS addresses THE problem of most golf swings.



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
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Then correct my english

December 21 2012, 5:26 PM 

Please let me know where my english mistakes were made. From time to time I am known to make mistakes, but i am not sure to what you are referring.

As to the instruction from the inventor I have read her detailed information on how to perform the swing and viewed a great many videos which she has detailing her instruction. It is also quite clear that she teaches NO wrist cock at the top of the backswing, and NOBODY who claims to be doing MGS does that. She claims that is a VERY important part of the swing. HOW STRANGE. wink.gif

MGS has nothing to do with the kinetic chain ( not kineticc as you wrote....lol) and is flawed seriously in that aspect.

Now the Minimalist Single Plane golf swing is the real deal. Please stay tuned for further details. happy.gif

Ham

 
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(Login mcirishman57)
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I was wrong - you need

December 23 2012, 3:03 PM 

reading comprehension and communication remediation.

She does not ever say what you insist she is saying....even on that one little snippet of instruction you keep referring to.

I will give you a chance to recant, but if you don't you need to pour yourself a nice glass of wine and prepare to get cyber slapped - I've had enough of this! wink.gif

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
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Just watch her....

December 23 2012, 3:54 PM 

and your swing demo on youtube. Both demonstrate the club pointing to ten o'clock at the top of the backswing. No wrist cock at the top. I did not write that. wink.gif

Ham

 
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(Login mcirishman57)
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Ham - MGS Three Ways

December 23 2012, 8:11 PM 



This video is over a year old, and I made it to address this whole issue of wrist cocking. The thing is, as I have tried ( and Sacto too), and as Mrs Kanwar says on her blog, with relaxed arms and wrists, and a normal back swing duration - the wrists will hinge/cock/set/float load/lag - whatever you choose to call it. It doesn't take 30-40 years as an instructor to discern that.

Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence
The MGS Approach
The MGS Forum




Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
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138

December 24 2012, 5:54 AM 

On the swing where you say 138 afterwards your club was pointed at one o'clock at the top of backswing. For MGS the wrists should not be cocked at the top of the backswing. In the downswing they can cock, but that is not what happened in your swing. Also a demonstration actually hitting golf balls would be a bit more telling then swinging through the air. You must have some film of your MGS swing hitting golf shots taken in the last year that you can share. Then you can show us how well the ten o'clock position at the top works. wink.gif

In trying MGS and accomplishing the no wrist cock top of swing position I got very poor results even with some wrist cocking happening in the downswing. It would work much better with just normal wrist cocking.

Best regards,

Ham

 
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(Premier Login bob2aa)
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Some things never change

December 20 2012, 3:25 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ham
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Nice work!!

December 20 2012, 4:51 PM 

wink.gif

Ham

 
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Ham
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Which...

December 21 2012, 1:43 AM 

One are you??

 
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(Premier Login bob2aa)
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Unfortunately

December 21 2012, 10:03 AM 

I don't qualify to appear in the gallery of great 6/100-positon golfers.

Here you can see why I don't qualify:

[linked image]


 
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Don M (Snowman)
(Login Snowman9000)
SAGF Members 2006

Question

December 22 2012, 10:51 AM 

The swing looks good but I cannot discern much pre-turn. Would you happen to have photos of what you feel would be the non-turned setup, and the pre-turned one? Thanks.

 
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Ham
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Pre-Turn is anywhere from 10 to 40 degrees.

December 22 2012, 3:06 PM 

It is up to the individual. In the video I was between 20 and 30 degrees open. In this swing the hips are also pre-turned although less then the upper torso.

I will be posting more info in the near future.

Best regards,

Ham

 
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(Login moetion)

I don't see no stinking pre turn!!!!

December 22 2012, 4:07 PM 

I don't see no stinking pre turn? No way you were 20 degree to 30 degree open. You sir are not single plane MGS golfer.
McIrishman your dedication and my following your interpretation of the MGS swing method has helped me greatly. I have taken down my best friend in our year long competition for the first time in our ten year rivalry. He is a former collegiate golfer and has been very impressed with my MGS swing and ball striking. I have not clued him in on my new swing method. He has been grilling me for the name of the local golf instructor I have been using. Maybe after I take him down next year I will reveal My MGS secrets. Funny thing is he really does not see a mechanical difference in my swing from previous years.

 
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Ham
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Good one...

December 26 2012, 5:15 AM 

but I have invented the Minimalist Single plane golf swing. Please do not confuse it with MGS as they are two completely different golf swings.

Best regards,

Ham

 
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(Login mcirishman57)
SAGF Members 2001

Ham Isn't Preturned

December 23 2012, 8:32 PM 

Actually his shoulder line is pretty conventional for either a single plane or CG golf set up:

[linked image]

In his video you see his shoulders turn from his set up position.

To your question, to get the benefit the right shoulder must be behind and below the left AT ALL TIMES, thus preventing right shoulder roll. happy.gif

Here is a video of me swinging MGS using an "Old Moe" set up. :



Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence
The MGS Approach
The MGS Forum



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
(Login hammeredit)
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Sorry...

December 24 2012, 5:41 AM 

but you are not qualified as to the teaching of the Minimalist Single Plane golf swing. Most of the details have yet to be published and he was not asking about MGS. The amount of pre-turn (not twist) for the MSPGS will be determined mostly by one's anatomy. I was pre turned properly to fit my anatomy.

I will see if I have a video with better lighting to post soon which better shows the MSPGS more clearly.

Best regards,

Ham

 
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Sacto83
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Steve Stricker- Less/no wrist cock might help you.

December 22 2012, 1:17 PM 

Why less wrist cock or no wrist cock might be better for you.

I increased my clubhead speed by 6.5 mph but more importantly the smash factor jumped a ton.


http://www.golf.com/video/steve-stricker-iron-video-tip-top-100-teacher-brian-manzella

 
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Ham
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Strickers wrists are cocked at the top.

December 22 2012, 1:44 PM 

Anybody can see this for themselves from looking at a face on view of his swing.

Ham

 
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Sacto83
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You don't get it ....

December 22 2012, 6:52 PM 

He doesnt INTENTIONALLY cock the wrists, only happens to the extent the weight of the club moves the wrists slightly in the change of direction. Just like J.B. Holmes. So says Manzella, Jonny Miller, Costas and a host of other instructors who have observed his swing. You may see some bending back of the right wrist on itself, but that is not true wrist cock as seen with Tiger, Rory, and most other pros that get to near parallel at the top. If you were an instructor you would know that stuff.

 
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bjornfree
(Login bjornfree)

he gets it ...

December 22 2012, 10:17 PM 

Satco, he's pulling your chain. He[Ham]will never concede that you're right. Like I said before if he knows it all what is he doing here. We're here to find answers to a tough game. Simplifying the golf swing is not in the best interest of some people. It sounds to me like you're on the right track to finding your swing. Your journey sounds similar to mine. For me I have a right sided swing where the weight stays left along with a MGS twist and limited wrist cock...it's still evolving. Good luck...

Brad

 
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Ham
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Missing the point as usual

December 23 2012, 2:09 AM 

His wrists are cocking halfway back during the backswing, and are cocked at the top of the swing. Intentional or not is not the issue. They are cocked. If instruction such as MGS says to have NO WRIST COCK at the top of the golf swing and states that the club must be pointing to 10:00 at the top of the swing then it is NOWHERE near what Stricker is doing. The MGS instruction is clearly NO WRIST COCK at the top of the swing intentional or otherwise. The inventor even demonstrates it with no wrist cock.

If you think that Bob Costas, J.B. Holmes, and Johnny Miller are golf instructors you are seriously mistaken. A good golf instructor takes twenty plus years of teaching just to become good.I have spent many thousands of hours teaching everyday golfers how to improve their golf games, and have success with every student and usually in less then a half an hour. wink.gif

The good news is that with the new Minimalist Single Plane Golf Swing you can choose to cock your wrists however you like. You can choose to not cock them at all, not intentionally cock them, or intentionally cock them. The choice is yours. In the MSPGS we focus on delivering the golf club on the proper path into impact with the club face square, and with middle of clubface impact and the appropriate angle of attack for the club being used and the desired shot. In most cases focusing on other mechanical issues keeps you from meeting those goals.

Best regards,

Ham


 
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Sacto83
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Let's try this again..

December 23 2012, 2:23 PM 

Lets try this again. Assuming a conventional set-up (as Stricker and Holmes have) then you will have an angle of about 140 degrees or so between the lead arm and clubshaft depending on which club you use. You will have that approximate angle if you set up like Kiran suggests. (Setting up like Moe would make that angle closer to 185 degrees depending on how much ulnar deviation you started with).

On the initial take-away that approximate 140 degree angle is maintained and therefore as you get further into the backswing that angle will still be present if you do the backswing correctly. Halfway to 3/4s of the way up it would appear to the untrained eye that the wrists have cocked but actually all that has happened is the initial angle at set-up has been maintained with perhaps some trail hand supination. Near the top or even sooner, some golfers will cock the wrists and reduce that angle between the lead arm and clubshaft to perhaps 110 to 90 degrees.

Those that don't cock the wrists will still have something close to the original angle they had at setup. Because of this original angle it may appear that they cocked their wrists because the lead arm and shaft still have an angle between them and the supination of the hand and pronation of the lead arm has tilted the axis towards a more horizontal plane. They have not actively cocked their wrists, just more or less maintained the angles they started with.

I'd suggest that this is what Kiran intended though it could have been explained a little better. That said, anyone with some golf knowledge and some common sense would be aware of this process. As I said before, some will bend the trail hand back on itself a little due to the weight of the club or intentionnally, that's not cocking the wrists. Some will also allow the club to float load in the initial downswing and get some wrist cock there. Just a matter of what works.

What puzzles me is why in the face of repeated statements by golfers here and elsewhere that the swing method works you persist in saying it won't. Could be that each of those golfers is still cocking the wrists or perhaps some aren't. So what? Maybe some are finding some merit in less wrist cock or no wrist cock due to the more difficult timing factor in fully cocked wrists.

Wrist cock or no wrist cock, or something in between, the cornerstone of her teaching is the pre-turn or "twist" that has helped more than a few achieve a better and more consistent backswing position and eliminate a good deal of the backswing errors that destroy the downswing. Why knock it if these folks are playing better golf?

Wouldnt it be more appropriate for you to take your views and arguements to Kiren on her web site instead of presenting redundant arguments and beating a dead horse here on the single axis site. At least you can get into the biometrics she has studied and perhaps "save more golfers from inappropriate instruction".

 
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Ham
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You are making it too difficult.

December 23 2012, 3:39 PM 

MGS teaches No wrist cock at the top of the backswing and says the club should point away from the target in the ten o'clock position.

Stricker Has the wrists cocked at the top and the club pointed towards the target at the three o'clock position.

Seems quite simple to understand.

Ham

 
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Sacto83
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Making it too...

December 23 2012, 4:47 PM 

difficult? Not for me, but it sounds like its over your head and beyond your ability to understand.

I'll ask it abain: Wouldnt it be more appropriate for you to take your views and arguements to Kiren on her web site instead of presenting redundant arguments and beating a dead horse here on the single axis site. At least you can get into the biometrics she has studied and perhaps "save more golfers from inappropriate instruction".



 
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Ham
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Simple

December 23 2012, 4:52 PM 

Should the wrists be cocked at the top of the backswing with MGS, or not???

Best regards,

Ham

 
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Sacto83
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Response

December 23 2012, 8:03 PM 

It depends on what fits you and your anatomy. It works either way. Once you perform the pre-turn or "twist" and get to the top you are free to use what works for you given your anatomy, abilities, coordination, athleticism, etc. Like any "method" instruction, it will fit someone and it will not fit others. But you knew that right?

Now answer my question will you: Wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to take your views and arguements to Kiren on her web site instead of presenting redundant arguments and beating a dead horse here on the single axis site? After all, better to go to the source of the instruction and hit it face on than to back door her on an unrelated forum, right?

Here's another: What year did you get your PGA Instructors Certification? Got a certification number?

Here's another: Do you think Sean Foley is too young to be teaching Tiger?


 
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(Premier Login sagf_moderator)
Forum Owner

While you may say...

December 25 2012, 11:59 PM 

it works either way the instruction does not say that. It does say clearly and is demonstrated that your wrists should not be cocked at top of swing.

Peter

 
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Mcirishman57
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LMAO - LOL - FOTFLMAO - 20 Years eh?

December 23 2012, 2:58 PM 

You continue to amaze:
A good golf instructor takes twenty plus years of teaching just to become good.


Really? I take it then that until the last few years you were ripping people off? You know, because you weren't a good teacher for the first 19 years or so eh, but you still charged em eh? No, wait, I bet you didn't charge them for your instruction because you weren't that good right? How about all the PGA apprentices and those early in their careers - guess nobody should take lessons from them til they have been at it 20 years?

You see Ham, you say stupid stuff like that often - and it just makes people wonder if you think before you write.

All your misquoted statements, obfuscation of facts, taking things out of context, isolating a part of instruction instead of taking it as a collective whole. I said you need English lessons, but I was wrong, you have need of basic comprehension and communication remediation.

And by the way, this is not a personal attack so don't go there - it is just an observation and statement of opinion. That comment above is one of the most ridiculous I have ever read, not just in the realm of golf instruction, but regarding teaching and communicating in general.

More to come for your remediation, stay tuned...

Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence
The MGS Approach
The MGS Forum




Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
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It is not...

December 23 2012, 3:53 PM 

my opinion, but rather the author of "the talent code's" opinion. To become a great instructor takes 30 to 40 years of experience. The becoming good after twenty depends on what you consider good. I think someone who is good can look at a swing and know the fix in a matter of a couple of minutes. To be great you know after a single shot with every player you look at. Sometimes I have a good idea before ever seeing a single shot.

Apprentices normally charge less for their lessons, more experienced Pros normally charge more. Not hard to understand.

Best regards,

Ham

 
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(Login mcirishman57)
SAGF Members 2001

IF you

December 23 2012, 4:23 PM 

had studied her as much as you say you have - you would have been led to her blog (oh wait you were, see below) - I actually pointed you to it before - where a poster puts forth the very question you keep harping on. In fact he words it in such a way that I thought it might be you "on the downlow".

Tony, (who has enough common sense and logic to understand, there is more to her statement than meets the eyes) writes:
im confused with this statement, no bend in either wrist so that both thumbs are horizontal at top of backswing this creates the very important WIDTH of backswing

How is this possible? firstly none of your MGS demo swings show this ,the only way the thumbs can remain horizontal is if the shaft and clubhead are also horizontal and there is zero wristcock which im sure is not what you mean?.


Mrs. Kanwar replies:
Tony, sometimes one has to phrase things differently so it resonates with different people. What I need to feel during the backswing is that nothing moves (no up-and-down movement of the body; with the right side of the body always being lower than the left, all through the backswing) and that there is neither any wrist action nor any body twist. So, yes, there should be no intentional wrist cock, the wrist lags at the correct time, when required, during the downswing. Does that answer your question?


The rest of the thread is very instructive and I will give it to you again - hopefully you won't ignore it it this time and can stop misreprensenting Mrs. kanwar's words and teaching. For example, you keep saying she she's the no wrist cock is a 'VERY IMPORTANT" part of her teaching. As you can see, she says WIDTH of backswing is what is important. You have twisted her words. Surely as a golf instructor of 20 years you understand the concept of width in the back swing right? Here's the link to the whole thread, which interestingly enough is the part of the instruction you keep referring to. I find it curious that you have not even read the posters responses(24) or even asked her a question the way Tony and the others have:

http://kirankanwargolf.wordpress.com/the-minimalist-golf-swing/

You outa read all the responses, even a golf pro of your ..ahem...stature and pre-eminence may find something there you can learn from those less blessed than you wink.gif YA THINK? NAH! (but it's worth a shot, since you want to save us all from bad instruction wink.gif )

Kevin



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
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Why if it is so confusing for...

December 23 2012, 4:47 PM 

people does she not change the directions, and her demonstration? She also says that the club points to ten o'clock at the top of the backswing. If she does not mean no wrist cock at the top then she should not write it.

Ham

 
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(Login mcirishman57)
SAGF Members 2001

And you keep right on

December 23 2012, 7:54 PM 

even after we show you where she says again..."there should be no INTENTIONAL wrist cock.."

Sheeesssh Louise!



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
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She says...

December 24 2012, 5:57 AM 

it cocks at the correct time. "during the downswing". wink.gif



Ham

 
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Forum Owner

Intentional or not...

December 26 2012, 12:05 AM 

she says your wrist should not be cocked at top of swing. The 'no intentional' is during the downswing. This means intentional or not if your wrists are cocked at top of swing you are NOT following her direction.

It would seem a simple thing for her to change her direction and demonstration if she in fact agreed with the possibility of having the wrists cocked at top of swing. Of course instructors claiming golfers that do not exhibit the characteristic taught is something we've discussed MANY times over the years in this forum and it always seems to be the case the someone who was helped by the thought of the instruction (whether they actually did it or not was often problematic) that are the most ardent defenders of 'it's OK if it doesn't show'.

Peter

 
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Ham
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Does not change a thing!!

December 24 2012, 5:35 AM 

She only clarified that the "wrist lags at the correct time, when required, during the downswing."

That does not change the position she requires at the top of the backswing. Club pointing to ten o'clock with no wrist cock. Her instruction requires "no bend in either wrist so that both thumbs are horizontal at top of backswing"

My position all along has been that if one does as she says then they will have poor results. Also so far no video has been posted of anybody with the club pointing to ten o'clock at the top of the backswing except in slow motion demos.

Your attempts to make it personal have no effect on the discussion for me. I know that you only make yourself look childish and immature. I do not get emotionally involved in discussions here and stick to the topic. This is not an attack against you, but rather poorly written or poorly thought out instruction. Either way if the inventor does not mean what she has written then she should change it. If I had written something like that and it was brought to my attention then I would say thank you and just change it.

I would recommend that you film some full swings and see if you can match the ten o'clock position at the top and then report the results.

Best regards,

Ham


 
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(Login mcirishman57)
SAGF Members 2001

There you go again

December 23 2012, 4:35 PM 

writing before thinking.

You said twenty years. Then you referenced Talent code says 30-40. So you are still a bad teacher then? Cuz like you know, you have only been teaching for 25 years or so..

Sorry Ham, I hate to keep holding your feet to the fire, but I don't want anyone to put their hope in you to "save them from bad instruction" without them knowing what they are getting themselves into! happy.gif *** DOH! ***

Kevin
The Authentic Golfer
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence
The MGS Approach
The MGS Forum





Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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Ham
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Read more carefully....

December 23 2012, 4:52 PM 

i said for 30 to 40 very good, and for 20 good. It also depends on the definition of good and very good, as well as great. I have seen all from bad. average, above average. good, very good, and great.

I think it was Bob Toski that said he wished he could give the money back to all his students the first twenty years that he gave lessons. wink.gif

Best regards,

Ham

 
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(Login mcirishman57)
SAGF Members 2001

Ham the mentalist

December 23 2012, 7:58 PM 

"Sometimes I have a good idea before ever seeing a single shot."

Damn, son, now that is something else! wink.gif

Kevin


Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!

 
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(Login Sacto83)
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Now that....

December 23 2012, 8:07 PM 

is truly "magic". Must have gone to Hogworts with Harry Potter.

 
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Ham
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Not magic...

December 24 2012, 3:35 AM 

It comes from experience. wink.gif

 
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Sacto83
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You must have ....

December 24 2012, 8:59 AM 

missed this further up the thread:

Now answer my question will you: Wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to take your views and arguements to Kiren on her web site instead of presenting redundant arguments and beating a dead horse here on the single axis site? After all, better to go to the source of the instruction and hit it face on than to back door her on an unrelated forum, right?

Here's another: What year did you get your PGA Instructors Certification? Got a certification number?

Here's another: Do you think Sean Foley is too young to be teaching Tiger?


 
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Ham
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I did not miss....

December 24 2012, 10:12 AM 

anything, but your response has nothing to do with the topic. I have not made insinuations regarding either of your intelligence during the discussions here as I feel it to be a waste of time and it does not help anybody. You both seem to think that making it personal will somehow benefit you. My opinion is that it only makes you look bad, and I won't participate in mud slinging. happy.gif

I also did not bring the discussion regarding MGS here to the website. I believe that Kevin did, so maybe you should ask him why he brought it here. When he did first report about the swing I looked into it, tried it for myself based on the inventor's instructions posted on her website, and videos she has made available on youtube. I saw the problems with the instruction quite quickly, but tried anyway to see if it could possibly work. It does not work very well if the instruction is followed as written. If she means something else in her writing then she should change it. I am not the only one who has seen the problems in the description matching example swings.

Credentials have nothing to do with the discussion. You can consider me to have never played the game before two years ago, or someone who has played for 40+ years, plus bla, bla, bla..... Either way it does not change the discussion.

Sean Foley is a sore spot with me. Tiger should have come to me, he would have at least won a major by now with me as his coach. wink.gif
My question regarding Tiger is. How good would he have played over the past 15 years had he chosen not to change his golf swing with Harmon, Haney, and now Foley?

Best regards,

Ham

 
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