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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:30 PM 

Ïîâåà áîñàíñêîã êðàà Ñòåôàíà Îñòî¼å
Povelja bosanskog kralja Stefana Ostoje
Ïðåâîä ïðâà äâà ðåäà: "Ó èìå Îöà è Ñèíà è Ñâåòîãà Äóõà Àìèí. £à Ñòåôàí Îñòî¼à ïî ìèëîñòè Ãîñïîäà Áîãà êðà Ñðáà (¼åäèíà åòíè÷êà îäðåäíèöà ó èíòèòóëàöè¼è), Áîñíå, Ïîìîð¼à, Õóìñêå çåìå, Çàïàäíèõ ñòðàíà, Äîèõ Êðà¼à, Óñîðå, Ñîëè è Ïîäðèà (èíòèòóëàöè¼à ïî îáëàñòèìà - çåìå êî¼èìà âëàäàð âëàäà èëè êî¼èìà ïðåòåíäó¼å äà âëàäà)."

Prevod prva dva reda: "U ime Oca i Sina i Svetoga Duha Amin. Ja Stefan Ostoja po milosti Gospoda Boga kralj Srba (jedina etnicka odrednica u intitulaciji), Bosne, Pomorja, Humske zemlje, Zapadnih strana, Donjih Kraja, Usore, Soli i Podrinja (intitulacija po oblastima - zemlje kojima vladar vlada ili kojima pretenduje da vlada)."

 
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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:33 PM 

U svojoj povelji Dubrovniku Stefan Ostojic, bosanski kralj, na kraju drugog i u trecem redu navodi da "nasledjuje presto od svojih roditelja i praroditelja gospode srpske

Prevod prva dva reda (velika i mala slova): "U ime Oca i Sina i Svetoga Duha Amin. Mi gospodin Stefan Tvrtko Tvrtkovic po milosti Gospoda Boga kralj Srba (jedina etnicka odrednica u intitulaciji), Bosne, Primorja i Humske zemlje (intitulacija po oblastima - zemlje kojima vladar vlada ili kojima pretenduje da vlada)." Ista titula se pominje na dnu povelje.

Prevod prva dva reda (velika i mala slova): "U ime Oca i Sina i Svetoga Duha Amin. Mi Stefan Tomas po milosti Gospoda Boga kralj Srba (jedina etnicka odrednica u intitulaciji), Bosne, Primorja, Humske zemlje, Donjih Kraja, Usore, Soli, Podrinja i Zapadnih strana (intitulacija po oblastima - zemlje kojima vladar vlada ili kojima pretenduje da vlada)."

 
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amerinako
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What language do you speak IDIOT!

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November 17 2008, 1:33 PM 

Bosnian Rulers called their Language Serbian
Bosnian ban (viceroy) Stefan Kotromanic (1322-1353) declares in 1333. a letter to Dubrovnik in which he states: "Thus I the noble ban Stefan impress my golden seal, so that all may know and see the truth. This is why the seals are equal, two in Latin and two in Serbian and all are sealed in gold.".

 
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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:34 PM 

On the Administration of the Empire (De Administrando Imperio), 10-th century
Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus aka: CONSTANTINE VII FLAVIUS PORPHYROGENITUS (b. September 905, Constantinople [now Istanbul, Turkey]. Nov. 9, 959), the Byzantine emperor from 913 to 959.

His writings are an immense source regarding the empire and neighboring lands. His work "De Administrando Imperio" is kept in its original manuscript in the Vatican library. It deals primarily with the Slavic peoples of the Balkans and its a huge account of geographical and cultural as well as political situation of the Balkans at the time. Porphyrogenitus does not only discuss the events of his lifetime, but of earlier periods such as that of Heraclius (610-641) and earlier.

Heading 32 of De Administrando Imperio of Constantine Porphyrogenitus, is called "On the Serbs and the lands in which they live". It speaks of the territories inhabited by Serbs in which he mentions Bosnia, specifically two inhabited cities, Kotor and Desnik, both of which are in an unidentified geographic position.

 
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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:35 PM 

The annals of the Frankish chronologist Einhard, 9-th century
A source older than that of the is that of the Frankish chronicler Einhard . In his annals (Royal Frankish Annals), so precious to Serb history, he describes the uprising of the Pannonian prince Ljudevit (818-823). In his work, he claims that Ljudevit "withdrew from the city of Sisak and fled to the Serbs". Accordingly, Serbs must have lived somewhere around Una, maybe even to the west, likely where the modern Serbian Krajina (region of Lika) lies.

"Liudevitus Siscia civitate relicta, ad Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatie partem obtinere dicitur, fugiendo se contulit"
, that is: "Ljudevit (prince of Lower Pannonia 822. - prim. CafeHome) having left the city of Sisak, fled to the Serbs, people inhabiting the greater part of Dalmatia).
Franjo Racki, the Croatian historian, says, that as the Roman province of Dalmatia stretched from the Adriatic to Pannonia, under those Serbs, who are mentioned by Einhard, we must look at all those lands between, and the people inhabiting them, ie: Bosnia to be considered Serbian land, inhabited by Serbs.

 
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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:36 PM 

The Miroslav's Gospel, the most valuable and the oldest manuscript written in Serbian in the Cyrillic script, date from the last quarter of the 12th century.(about 1190 A.D.) Confirmation of this dating is also found in words written by one of the scribes on the last page of the manuscript:"I, sinful disciple Gligorije... have inscribed in gold these Gospel for the celebrated prince Miroslav, son of Zavida..."
Prince Miroslav, brother of Grand Zhupan Stefan Nemanja, was the ruler of Hum, an area that largely coincides with the territory of present-day Herzegovina. He may have commissioned this manuscript at the time of his endowment of St. Peter s church on the Lim River, but no information or even legend exists about how or when the Gospel was taken from Hum to Chilandari monastery on Mt. Athos. One possibility is that Nemanja brought it with him when he founded Chilandari.

It is the earliest and most beautiful manuscript with rich coloured illustrations written in Serbian in Cyrillic script. The Gospel had been preserved in the library of Hilandar Monastery on the Holy Mountains, Athon (Greece). During the previous two centuries, the Gospel changed several times its place until it was kept in the National Museum of Belgrade.

 
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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:44 PM 

Bosnian language (Bosnian: bosanski jezik), sometimes referred as Bosniak language[9] [10] [11] or Bosniac language[12] [13] [14] is a South Slavic language native to the Bosniak people. The language is notably spoken in the areas of Bosnia, the Bosniak-dominated region of Sandak (in Serbia and Montenegro) and elsewhere. It is one of the standard versions of the Central-South Slavic diasystem which covers the region that was once known as Serbo-Croat from the 19th century until the early 1990s. It should be noted, however, that the standard Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian languages are all mutually intelligible.

The Bosnian alphabet is based on the Latin alphabet( proof that they never had a real language or alphabet). The Cyrillic alphabet is accepted (chiefly to accommodate for its usage in Bosnia in the past, especially in former Yugoslavia), but seldom used in today's practice. The name Bosnian language is the commonly accepted name among Bosniak linguists,(only by them, no other educated linguists in the world would make that claim).

 
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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:44 PM 

Bosnian or Bosniak language

The irony of Bosnian language is that its speakers, Bosnian Muslims or Bosniaks, are, on the level of colloquial idiom, more linguistically homogenous than either Serbs or Croats, but have failed, due to historical reasons, to standardize their language in the crucial 19th century. The first Bosnian dictionary, rhymed Bosnian-Turkish glossary authored by Muhamed Hevaji Uskufi , was composed in 1631. But, unlike Croatian dictionaries, which were written and published regularly (in the formative period 1600. to 1850s more than 20 Croatian dictionaries had appeared), Uskufis work remained an isolated foray. At least two factors were decisive:

-Bosnian Muslim elite wrote almost exclusively in Oriental (Arabic, Turkish, Persian) languages. Vernacular literature, written in modified Arabic script, was thin and sparse.

-Bosnian Muslimss/Bosniakss national emancipation lagged behind Serbian and Croatian, and since denominational, rather than cultural or linguistic issues played the pivotal role, Bosnian language project didnt arouse much interest or support. Here, one must add a word of caution: from ca. 1600 to ca. 1800, a number of Croatian dictionaries and grammars mention the term Bosnian language. But, in these works it stood as a reference to tokavian dialect (as distinct from kajkavian and akavian) of the common name for stylised Croatian language-Illyrian or Slovinian language, which encompassed all three dialectal variants.

No Bosnian language reference has had any ethnic/national implication in the modern sense of the word. Also, now we can witness a growing tension due to a rather bizarre situation: Croats and Serbs object to the name «Bosnian» for the language of Bosnian Muslims/Bosniaks and contend that this is a sneaky manoeuvre to boot Croatian and Serbian languages from administration and media by imposing one «official» language with deceptively all-encompassing name. They say that the language of Bosniaks should be called Bosniak ( no «Bosnian» nation-no «Bosnian» language). So far, they failed to halt what they see as a «creeping Bosniakization» in areas of mass media and state administration.

So, prescriptions for the language of Bosnian Muslims in the 19th and 20th centuries were written outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was an artificial blend of Croatian and Serbian, a stew of Serbian and Croatian orthographies, phonologies, vocabularies and morphologies-Serbo-Croatian language. After the collapse of Yugoslavia Bosniaks remained the sole inheritors of the Serbo-Croatian hybrid and are trying to reshape it, under the new name of Bosnian language, into a distinct national/ethnic standard language.

 
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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:46 PM 

Muslim region adopts a 'new' language: Bosnian
By Nicholas WoodPublished: FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 2005
Ahmed Halilovic's hand shot up to reply to a question from his teacher: "Can anyone tell the difference between Bosnian and Serbian?"

Looking around the classroom in the Mesha Selimovic primary school here, it seemed that Ahmed, 7, was the only one to know. The other children could be forgiven: It is a question that many adults in this largely Muslim region of Serbia might find hard to answer.

Bosnian is one of a series of languages that have blossomed in the former Yugoslavia since the country broke up in the early 1990s.

Before then, most Yugoslavs spoke Serbo-Croat, a language that had been recognized since the 19th century but that had many regional differences.

Now four "new" languages have appeared. Croatia, Bosnia and even Montenegro have sought to reassert traditional differences and to distance themselves from Serbo-Croat, a language some felt was too heavily dominated by Serbian.

Now

Today in Europe
A senior ETA leader is arrested in FranceRussia's high-tech sector reelsRussian court opens Politkovskaya trial the southwestern region of Serbia known as Sandzak is following suit. As of this month, pupils here may study a dialect of Bosnian. Textbooks emphasize expressions and vocabulary particular to the region.

Introduction of the classes is seen as a victory for the mountainous region's Muslim minority, which argues that the local language was eroded by the education system and bureaucracy based in Belgrade, which was dominated by Serbs, who speak a different language with a different accent and who worship in Orthodox churches, not mosques.

In Bosnia-Herzegovina, by contrast, Muslim Slavs are the biggest ethnic group.

"Language defines the identity of a people," said Zekerija Dugopoljac, the director of education for the Bosnian National Council, the official body that represents Muslim Slavs in Serbia and Montenegro. "Having the Bosnian language brings recognition to a people who have lived in Serbia and Montenegro for centuries."

The lessons, which have the approval of Serbia's Education Ministry, are designed to comply with European law allowing minorities to be taught their own language. Serbian nationalists oppose the classes, which they see as a first step toward a separatist movement. The ultranationalist Serbian Radical Party has called for the education minister to step down.

Such moves are closely watched in this region, one of Serbia's most ethnically diverse. Sandzak managed to escape the ethnic conflicts of the 1990s that took place just across its boundaries in Bosnia and Kosovo. Muslims here say they do not want to alarm their Serb neighbors. Others appear confused about the need for the classes.

"I speak Serbian," said Nedzat Zenunovic, a 23-year-old Muslim who works in an Internet café. "Bosnians speak Bosnian. We don't live in Sarajevo, we live here."

A straw poll in the café revealed that several people had difficulty in giving any name to the language they spoke.

"It's Serbo-Montenegran!" quipped a young student, smiling because there is no such language.

The authors of the new textbooks say such responses show how the region's culture has been worn down, leaving people unable to define who they are.

"I was also assimilated," said Mevluda Malajac, a teacher at the Mesha Selimovic primary school and one of the textbooks' editors. "The language I speak is absolutely Serbian, but my parents spoke Bosnian. We want to bring back what has been gradually lost over the last 150 years."

Croatia is notable for its efforts to define its language. The late President Franjo Tudjman, founder of the independent state, introduced words to replace foreign or Serb vocabulary.

Proponents in Sandzak of classes in Bosnian, among them most of the region's Muslim politicians, note that the language was recognized in the Ottoman court and that the first Bosnian dictionary was compiled in 1631.

What has attracted controversy is the attempt to emphasize local expressions not used in Bosnia itself and the inclusion of literature by lesser-known local poets and writers. This has prompted some to question the expertise of the textbooks' authors.

Enes Halilovic, the editor of Sent, a monthly cultural magazine published in Novi Pazar, derided the texts as the work of amateurs. "I am not against the introduction of the language," he said, "but the way in which it is being done."

Critics say some textbook sentences - like "I speak Bosnian. My language is the most beautiful in the world" - are likely to offend Serbs and are "dangerous" for Muslims. The Sandzak Democratic Party, a main Muslim political group in the region, has called for a new textbook to be written.

Dugopoljac of the Bosnian National Council defended the texts, saying they had been designed to add to the variety of the region.

 
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amerinako
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 17 2008, 1:54 PM 

There can not be a Bosnian language! We can only speak about Bosniak(ian) language...
No language in the history of the world is named after a country or a river (like the river Bosnia in this case)-following this there is no American language, there is no Austrian, Brazilian, Australian, Jordanian, Iraqian and so on...
Languages are named after the nation/people/tribe who first used/"invented" that particular language....

There is no such a thing as Bosnian nation/people/tribe...

Basically,

Srbi - srpski
Hrvati - hrvatski
Bosnjaci - bosnjacki

Bosnian is language which is "created" by the muslims from Bosnia just for political reasons. It has no real value, nor is different from Serbian/Croatian.

Well, most linguists are boud to call it (for the sake of political correctness) BKS (acronym)... It sounds really stupid.
There's a joke which discribes this situstion quite well:
- What's a language?
- A language's a dialect with an army.
Personally, I find it hard to understand why all the people want to have an own language - I'm from Austria and I speak German, not Austrian... Maybe it's a war thing - although most people from Serbia and Croatia here in Vienna come along quite well, the parting line seems to be rather social than ethnical...
the right question would be whether the name for the Macedonian language was derived from the ethnicity/people/nation/tribe Macedonians or not?
Well, we all know that it was!
Inspite the fact that group of south Slavs got name after region Macedonia they settled in, their language was named after them, ie. PEOPLE who uses that language!

In case of Bosnia that's not the case...
Bosnia is a river and Bosnia was a mediaeval christian state populated chiefly by Serbs and Croats and they did not speak "bosnian" for sure...
Bosnian is an adjective related to the region..It would be ridiculous to say old Ilirs spoke "bosnian" because they lived in that region, or Romans, or Sas , or Huns, or Austrians, or Turks etc...they all lived in that region, but still they spoke their own languages...
The people who are trying to call their language "bosnian" call themselves BOSNIAKS not BOSNIANS-here is the difference between Macedonians, not to mention time frame (which is a millenium and more) of these two cases...
For English speakers does not make a big difference, but in our languages the difference between "boshnyak" (bosniaK-ethnic related) and "bosanatz" (bosniaN-related to the region) is quite obvious...

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 18 2008, 5:28 AM 

??
Retard Hund Sluga ashamed of his ancestors from Kabul. You are Slav who discovered Slavic language? Russian brotherhood? hahahaha
Slugo go find your relatives in Kabul but before come suck my co.k like you do to Pavle. I want to see why Pavle likes you the most.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 18 2008, 1:46 PM 

once again you show everyone how STUPID you have to be to be a wanna-be bosniak muslim!
Learn to read and write, to comprehend the basics of the language in which you poorly try to conversate in. dane take time and read the above postings you WORTHLESS piece of made up islamic sh*t!

Also let me get this straight in your post you invite a MAN to give you oral pleasure's? Now this sounds like the islamic ways the world knows of, your old turkish bath rituals, can't get them out of your mind you sick, dirty, worthless excuse of a life.

DEATH to islam and bosniaks!

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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November 19 2008, 4:12 AM 

Why are you ashamed of your ancestors from North Turkey and Afgan? Your relatives there now are muslims! That's why they called you balija because you are their flesh and blood. And now you retard want to sell me your artificial religion and nationality. hahaha You have nothing. Language nationality religion nothing .. it's all artificial. If I were you I would shoot myself. How can you be proud of nothing? Do you know in Portugal your country is still called Servia not Srbija. Proud of it? Go back to your roots. Stupid jerk.

 
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Marko5
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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December 4 2008, 9:07 PM 


 
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Cem Türktekin
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Re: Is Turkey Bosnia’s mother?

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December 26 2008, 8:48 AM 

Motherness might be a term somewhat exaggerated, however Turkey will keep acting like the protector of Bosnian muslims as it's been doing so far.

 
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