Welcome to the BroadArrow Unplugged. This takes the place of the Tactical Systems Forum. That forum wasn't getting a lot of use so we've decided to try out a new format. If everyone likes it, we can make this a permanent forum. This is where MWRines can talk about almost anything off-topic, not appropriate for the Main Forum. Here, you are free to talk about anything, however, I would prefer we don't talk politics. Once again, there is a zero tolerance policy for rudeness and personal attacks. Other than that, have fun!
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Go to: Military Watch Forum Archives The Post Exchange ~

* UNPLUGGED HAS MOVED * (MORE)

by Bob

Hi MWRines,

The old messages stay up for now, but I've locked it down for posting. We have moved to:

http://www.broadarrow.net/cgi-bin/unplugged.pl

Please bookmark it and join us there!

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Nov 26, 2001, 9:35 AM
from IP address 209.178.191.222

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Speaking of G1's, just call me "Mr. BIN"

by Bill

I was searching "navy jacket" tonight, looking for one of those canvas and alpaca numbers that doesn't look like it's been chewed by old crew dogs (they all do), and seeing lots of Old Navy jackets, when I happened upon this, which had of course just been listed:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1038362820

BINned it knowing a 40 regular won't fit yours truly, but at this price, I just couldn't bear to let it go. However, I have offered to pass it at cost to a certain Timex-collecting MWRine with a dented 5513. If he's not enough of a wanker to wear it, my daughter looks pretty good in mouton.

I love eBay. Just when you you're convinced you'll never get another good deal... And that little perf-stencilled "USN" is so cool.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:24 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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You da BIN Man ...

... sorry, being silly. Good Catch, but shouldn't you check to see if you wife would like it? I guess there weren't/aren't many BIG pilots, were there?

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:39 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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She's got an L.L. Bean copy that she maintains is "out of style". (more)

by Bill

And the provenance would be wasted on her. I think this one would look good on a radiologist, myself.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:41 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Ahem...now that is one kind offer...

by Alan N.

Shucks, man... I'd love it, most definitely! Are you sure? Little twinges of guilt (how can I take it when he's thinking of giving it to his daughter?) Whatever becomes of it, thanks for keeping me in the running...

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:06 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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So, I can let this other auction go now....?

by Alan N.

I was dying to see how the mouton chinstrap, on this one, felt against my chinny chin chin. We do have a theatre district here in town. But the mouton on the USN would be just fine, I'm wanker enough. Seriously, thanks Bill, your choice of course what to do with it, I'll email.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:23 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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The fact that neither wife nor daughter "borrow" my Aero's (more)

by Bill

strongly suggests that neither is the ideal recipient. (Have you noticed how women avoid garments that completely disguise the outline of the upper body?)

Those old school Air Force parkas (that's WWII) are stylin', no question!

Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 9:36 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Mystery tour: Cold War missile silo complex

by Bill

http://www.triggur.org/silo/site.html

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 5:33 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Bill, I'm curious. How did you come across this thing???

/

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 5:46 PM
from IP address 12.88.84.19

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A friend who has similar tastes and interests sent me the link. (more)

by Bill

Knew I'd enjoy it. Like those links to the "urban exploration" sites I posted here once. (BTW, I suspect that, post-9.11, there is a lot less of that particular sort fun being had in the United States!)

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 7:21 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Anyway, I enjoyed it a lot. This guy's got the kind of twist (more)

by Richard

of bizarre that I like.

Thanks, Bill.

Best,

Richard

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 7:26 PM
from IP address 12.88.96.24

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Particularly ominous, are these...

by Alan N.

.. rocket silos. Especially the way the walls are unstable by design. I've always been bothered being around what I call "industrial water." The natural waters, oceans, lakes, rivers are fine, a delight, but man-made made vats, dark pools, tanks, water traps, scare the hell out of me. Probably watched too many movies.

I love the way he says "very stupid, very dangerous" to the guys who tried to climb the walls, though he himself is not taking a walk in the park!

I think you're definitely correct, that after 9-11, this sort of wandering is much more risky.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:23 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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Climbing around in old missle silos is no more likely (more)

by Bill

to get your knuckles rapped than it used to be, but taking a stroll through any of the lower reaches of Manhattan probably would.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:27 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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An interesting and creative use for cold war (more)

by James K

underground establishments is right here in Dorset. RAF Sopley (Christchurch) closed in the mid 70's, has several huge underground communicatoins tunnels and silos. They are now used for the secure storage of highly valuable Wines! safe, secure and kept in perfect environmental conditions 20 foot barbed wire fences, guard dogs and (at times) armed guards, protect the above ground enterance to what is apparently a wine cellar??
Next time you feel like treating yourself to an unusual holiday try Gibraltar, hundreds of miles of tunnels, from the 1700's through to the secret Resistance bunkers intended for use if the Spanish/Germans invaded and the hidden troop marshalling areas for operation Torch during WWII, cold war communications and air defence silos, Exocet missiles (captured from the Argentines in 1982)pointing out over the straights just to ensure that the Med is still our playground and the Joint Operations Centre still in use today (you cant go into these bits).
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 1:40 AM
from IP address 62.7.4.135

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Gibraltar

by Philip

Went to Gib earlier this year. For a day trip it would be fine, two weeks there is pushing it abit tough. The training was good, but Gib is not the most exciting place in the world. Did get to go on the nuclear sub. that had broken down out there though. Nearly got to stay longer as our Herc. wouldn't start. An RAF hammer cured it though.

If you ever go to Gib. cross the border and ask the first taxi driver to take you to Los Lagos (Lima Lima).

Posted on Nov 26, 2001, 2:22 AM
from IP address 195.195.42.108

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Ex Marble Tor ?(more)

by James K

I love the rock, been going back there for a number of years so Ive seen all the changes taking place? Stil interesting although you need to know what your looking for.
My Grandfather was once stationed at buffadero Camp so the FIBUA range was interesting.
Did you vissiti Phoo Mao the Indian watch shop on the high street?
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 26, 2001, 3:27 AM
from IP address 194.66.71.10

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Any idea how many of these there are in the US? Great site btw nt.

.

Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 10:39 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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Mallory's Everest watch revisited: picture of the recovered watch.

by Alan N.

Few days ago, posted on this subject. Yesterday, in the mail I received this color copy photo of the watch which was recovered on Mallory's body, found in 1999. Mr. Rae, of the Royal Geographical Society, sent the picture, along with the patent number of the watch, in the hopes that someone could identify the brand of watch. Watch looks typical of the wristlet-type watch popular around the time of, and after WWI, missing hands and crystal. The quality and finish of the case looks more like a jewelled Swiss watch, than Ingersoll, to me. Patent number is 6987 / 13 or 6987113. Picture credits are on the image. Mr. Rae's contact info is below.

What a cliche to say it, but if only this watch could talk.

=====================================
Eugene Rae
Librarian

Royal Geographical Society
(with The Institute of British Geographers)
1 Kensington Gore, London SW7 2AR
http://www.rgs.org
e.rae@rgs.org

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:00 AM
from IP address 66.32.118.114

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What an extraordinary image. (more)

by Bill

I wonder if a patent number search would turn anything up?

Who has the watch now? A look at the movement might help.

It certainly doesn't look like an Ingersoll to me

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:34 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Apparently Ingersoll made good ..

.... quality swiss watches before their bankruptcy in 1922?/1924? after which they were bought and the name was put on "Dollar Watches".

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 3:26 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Actually, the dollar watches came much earlier... more

by Alan N.

The original Ingersoll's were the Dollars. See this link from your post below, on the Timex book (a very good read this book). Ingersolls weren't watch men, but sold what they thought could make money. They hit the big time with their inexpensive watches very early on, and seemed to concentrate exclusively on watch product after that. At some point, the name "Ingersoll" on anything watch-wise meant it had a good chance of selling, and the Bros. were probably agreeable to allow many firms to make watches with their names on them, for them to distribute. Not surprising then that there are jewelled watches with Ingersoll stamped on movement. Many of of the Ingersoll watches were probably made well past the time that the men were actually involved with it. The "Ingersoll" Mickey Mouse is a famous example of how a well-known name turned around a nearly failing company, though the Ingersolls themselves were either dead or destitute!

Need to get a picture of the movement of this Everest watch!

http://www.americantime.com/news/stories/21800a.shtml

"..."dollar" watch, trumpeted in advertising as "The Watch That Made the Dollar Famous." It was the brainchild of a clever marketer named Robert Ingersoll, who, starting in the 1880s, had been selling a range of miscellaneous merchandise�typewriters, sewing machines, cameras and other items--all priced at just one dollar. Ingersoll contracted with Waterbury Clock to make watches he could sell for the same price. They were a commercial triumph. By 1900, Ingersoll had sold 6 million of them."

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:10 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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Isn't it something? - more

by Alan N.

That must be the rope found with the recovery.

Queries to online US and Swiss patent registries showed no match. Tried a few other countries too. Would be neat if MWR could somehow come up with it, but you're right, we'd need to see the movement.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 9:46 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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Chilling!.....nt

nt

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 2:04 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.202

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Saddam next ! ! ? ?

by CJ

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 6:01 AM
from IP address 172.164.31.228

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Well I gave our Fire Charity over a week... (more)

by Bob

Hi MWRines,

Last week I told you how I tried to donate our MWR Charity Money to the Firemen's Relief Fund. The number I called led only to a recording asking me to "Push one if I wanted to Donate by Visa...."

So I sent off a kind e-mail asking for someone I could contact by voice to make the donation. Well, it's been over a week and no reply.

What should I do at this point? Am I being overly sensitive and send the money to them anyways, despite their ungrateful ways? Should we start searching for a better charity? Should I blow the wad on an expensive milwatch and give it away on MWR (charity begins at home).

I think it would be really cool if we could find a real fire-family to present a check to and then task one of our New York MWRines to physically deliver the check. That's just my thought, but I am open to suggestions.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 3:35 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.116

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I share your frustration. Actually, given the way the world works today (more)

by Bill

I wonder if it might not actually be difficult for a private individual to simply give someone a sum of money out of charity!

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 6:50 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Up to you, Bob.

by Richard

/

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 9:14 AM
from IP address 12.88.87.62

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I like the idea of a 'real' family. Richard's lead? (more)

It's that age old problem, too, of 'what difference does our drop make to the multi-millions of $ already floating around and not getting to the actual people it's destined for?' I wouldn't type your Visa number in, anyway, on principle. I wonder if anyone might object to it going somewhere not stated at the outset? Speak now(?)

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 12:22 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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I can give you at least 10 names of fire fighters families (more)

by Richard

who are now fatherless and husbandless. It's up to you, but we'll know because I'll personally hand over the check made out to the family by Bob himself.

Best,

Richard

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 4:09 PM
from IP address 12.88.83.69

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Your call, Bob. I know you'll do what is right....nt

.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 3:54 PM
from IP address 207.172.11.233

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I agree with everyone else Bob

With the situation as you have described and the stories that I am hearing out of New York of families that are getting the same treatment I concur with everyone else, your call Bob. I know you'll find the correct solution.

Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 1:48 AM
from IP address 192.251.125.2

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Hiya everyone, been away from MWR (more)

for some time now because I don't have a computer at home. I don't have a computer anymore because my work-issued laptop was revoked. My work computer was taken back because I was laid off work, haha.

Oh well, life goes on and I just have to find another job. In the meantime, I'm still with you all in spirit (and at least, behind the scenes, talking with Bob and other MWRines). I'll show up from time to time, but don't throw out my chair!

Best wishes,
Tito

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 8:42 PM
from IP address 66.108.86.210

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Sorry to hear the bad news Tito...

by Yao

Hope you see you again when I am back in NYC. However, I am sure the rest of the folks here will keep your seat warm.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 8:59 PM
from IP address 151.197.245.16

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Sorry about the news, chair is yours and hope things work out OK (more)

by James K

in the near future. Dont wory jobs are like busses, wait a while and then two or three arrive at once!
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 2:39 AM
from IP address 62.7.8.3

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I am sorry to hear about this Tito (more)

by Bob

Hi Tito,

You have had your share of bad luck.....

Earlier this year, you suffered a serious injury. Then your backyard was obliterated by some thoughtless souls. Now your very livelihood has been taken from you. Anyone who weathers this kind of adversity with the grace and high spirits that you have will come out much stronger. I have every hope that you will soon find yourself in better shape than ever before. There will always be a place here at MWR for you.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 3:24 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.116

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Try........

by CJ

Hi Tito

On Clinton's last day at the White House all
the "W" keys were removed .
That's the replacement key to the laptop.

Waay pangita
apang masako kumaon

Ano nga masakit wara paghalin sa banig?

When offended they'll click below to delete.
SALAMAT >:-)

CLICK HERE!

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 5:56 AM
from IP address 172.164.31.228

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Sorry for this news Tito - more

by Alan N.

That's tough man. Keep hanging in there, something will come up. Alan

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 8:07 AM
from IP address 66.32.36.183

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There's a lot of that going around. Hang in and things will change. nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:51 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Sorry to hear that. Good Luck /nt

by Ian Parkin

3

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 1:32 PM
from IP address 24.20.167.174

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Flight Jacket Smackdown!

In the past on Unplugged we've had various discussions on leather jackets regarding this leather vs. that leather, and this maufacturer vs. that one, but I'd be interested in seeing a discussion on leather flight jacket designs.

So to get things rolling, a few opening volleys:

1. What were/are the virtues of leather flight jackets in the cockpit, and of what use are they outside of the cockpit for the non-pilot (besides trying to look cool)?

2. A2 vs. G1 vs ...?

3. What is your favourite design and why?

4. Any "secret" or lesser known flight jacket designs worth looking into?

5. Current issue designs vs early designs?

5. Any info/opinion on those curious blue/grey Flight Jacket's from France? (these have caught my eye of late)

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 12:25 PM
from IP address 141.154.227.14

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Re #4, the navy blue jacket issued to Harrier pilots (more)

by Bill

and offered by Silvermans (*quite* pricey!) looks to be an interesting design. No knit cuffs or waist.

Re #2, I don't really find most vintage issue flight jackets that practical for non-cockpit wear (the only kind of wearing I do!) because of the pockets. You can't put your hands in them for warmth without looking like a crippled kangaroo. So I stick with vintage civilian patterns with slash side pockets (or ideally both slash side and snap-closing top-opening flap ockets over those, as with Aero's great Longshoreman).

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 12:34 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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That Harrier jacket...

...looks good -- a lot like the French jacket. I wonder what kind of leather it is made of.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 1:17 PM
from IP address 141.154.227.14

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I saw one at Silverman's but didn't examine it closely. (more)

by Bill

It was by civilian standards quite sporty and contemporary-looking, and seemed to be made of a rather light, supple-looking leather. A very dark blue. I think it may have a pocket on the upper sleeve.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 8:23 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Brace yourself Bill...

Here is a visual comparison of both blue leather flight jackets. Now brace yourself: the link Mike E. provided to the British manufacturer for the RAF shows that the Milspec for the Type 89903 is cowhide. Run away! Run away!

(BTW, the price is much lower direct from the maker than from Silvermans)

The French jacket is goatskin.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 12:35 AM
from IP address 141.154.228.34

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Dangerous links, Carlos! nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:41 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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As for current ops...

by Bill H

I have yet to see an Air Force pilot wear leather in the cockpit. They were definitely a return to the pilot era of WW II. The new issue, however, are restrictive and not very warm. Most of the crewmembers I've met had them altered during their rotations through Turkey. Sleeves (notably the armpit area) were lengthened to give reach, pockets altered so one could put gum, grenades, you know,cool stuff in their pockets while liners were modified as well. Most of the mil pilots I know wear the Nomex jackets during flight.

As for merits, the A-2 jacket still looks rather appealing despite its inability to keep one warm. Form over function these days but definitely a piece of aviation history.

The grey German leather flying jackets have been very popular among AF pilots. In the late 80s and early 90s, A-10 pilots from RAF Bentwaters occasioned four German bases for permanent forward presence of the tankbusters. While at these German bases, pilots traded, pleaded, etc., to get one of the German leather flying jackets. Too cool.

Just some thoughts.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 3:50 PM
from IP address 202.123.136.116

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I agree on the A-2 (more)

by Bob

Hi Bill,

I have a faithful A-2 reproduction from Aeroleather. It is a stitch for stitch re-make of the original. It is correct right down to the WW II era NOS Talon zipper, and vertical pockets. There are no handwarming pockets that most reproduction A-2s seem to have. I had to get it a size larger than normal to give me more "play." On top of that, it's not especially warm. Any colder than a mild chill in the air and I put on something warmer.

All of that being said, I love my A-2 and I wear it every chance I get to try and break this beast in. I figure it should have that worn "wabi" look in about 20 more years of casual wear. That's when it will really be cool.

Best,

Bob

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 9:20 PM
from IP address 4.35.216.116

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The break-in period varies with the hide. (more)

by Bill

I have a Veste de Rallye in front-quarter black horse that's totally supple at four years, and a Longshoreman in russet horse that at a little under a year still feels like wearing a suitcase. But that's the heaviest horse I've ever seen. If you can't find a place to hang it, you can literally prop it up in the corner!

Anyone scared of the horse-breaking process will do just fine with Aero's Alaskan steer, though. I love that too. Thick, soft, and a real wabi-magnet. My four-year-old Aero in steer looks like it was made in the Forties and taken good care of.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:24 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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I recall now...

...that I once heard someone refer to A-2 jackets as leather sweaters. Fair judgement?

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 12:44 AM
from IP address 141.154.228.34

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Hard to say. Sweaters can have a variety of attributes. (more)

by Bill

Jane Russell and Albert Einstein were both associated with the general class of garment, but to very different effect.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 10:53 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Well, the trouble with the first one...

...is that it leaves you overheated.

Actually the "leather sweater" illustration makes sense considering how closely fit some of these flight jackets were. With no room for layers ond no "dead air" space, how warm could they be?

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 11:29 AM
from IP address 141.154.228.34

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Another reason I prefer civilian patterns. (more)

by Bill

Horsehide itself is not particularly good at retaining heat. Why I have either alpaca or shearling in mine.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 2:27 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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I was once posted to HMS Heron RN Fleet Air Arm base in (more)

by James K

Yeovil Somerset. The Sea Harrier squadrons were based there and the pilots all had leather jackets they wore them around the station when in flying kit but didnt wear them when flying. Very cool arriving for work on a big motorbike in flying kit and leather jacket though, even if its in Somerset rather than California.
The Sea King pilots from ther Commando squadrons had similar jackets and did wear them when flying, but not it seems on ops.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 12:49 AM
from IP address 194.66.72.204

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A-1, A-2, M-442, G-1, AN-J-3 and more

by OCD

Hi guys -

I guess that the first thing I'd remind everyone is that the A-2 was and is, by specification, a SUMMER flight jacket. It dates back to an era of open cockpits when it was first introduced. As any motorcyclist can tell you, a stiff breeze gets cold real fast, and even old airplanes can outrun motorcycles. The others are also summer flight jackets. So Carlos comes closest with his description of a leather sweater.

They are really windbreakers; if you needed warmer, there were the RAF Irvin types and the B-3s, etc. I have a custom G-1 with Thinsulate that holds up pretty well for most winter conditions. The Nomex CWU-45P jacket works pretty well for winter, as well.

I don't have a scan but the current German Luftwaffe flight jackets are pretty neat.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:39 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.106

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Source for Luftwaffe jackets ...

by OCD

I believe that FlightSuits.com carries these as well.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:50 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.106

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Considering...

...how much these things cost, it is most evident that we are all nuts. $600 for a horsehide windbreaker?

No doubt men in white coats with butterfly nets are looking for us as we speak.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 11:35 AM
from IP address 141.154.228.34

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Each horsehide has to come with a certificate of rightful death. (more)

by Bill

That's in the US, but proper chrome-tanned front-quarter horse is really only made in the US, now. Globally, it's a much rarer material than mink! So $600 is....a bargain!

But it's likely to last for a good fifty years, which is kind of neat.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 2:37 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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G1 vs A2 and other matters

by Mike (E)

1. One presumes that back in the day, it was difficult to produce cloth of a tight enough weave to protect from wind while being warm and durable. Hence leather. Also, leather doesn't burn very well.

These same attributes also apply to the flight jacket as an everyday wear item and for driving. However, the elastic waistband design is not suitable for motorcycling.

2. Loyalty forces me to choose the G1. Moreover, it has a functional inside pocket, a bi-swing back, and quieter patch pocket buttons. Plus a pen pocket. The A2 provides a sleeker profile, but is nowhere near as functional. But the horshide looks better, even if it isn't as durable as goatskin.

I and my A-2 have a funny story to tell. I once wore it shopping, and while entering Nieman's I was confronted by one of several animal rights types picketing the store. He asked "do you know what some cow went through so you could have that jacket?" or some such. I turned toward him and his friends, looked him straight in the eye, and replied, "this jacket is made from horsehide," and entered the store.

3. My absolute favorite is the RAF Irvin sheepskin jacket from WW2. Has "Hero" written all over it, very warm, and since it's belted, it's safe to use as a motorcycle jacket. Drawback? No pockets...

4. The WW2 version of the G1 is the M422A. Flight Suits and Eastman make excellent reproductions.

5. A summer Nomex CWU is lighter, safer and far more functional than any leather jacket. But it looks terrible and is difficult to keep clean in a military aviation environment.

6. French? BLUE? What are you, some kinda hippie?

http://www.flightsuits.com

http://www.flying-jacket.com

mike

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:36 PM
from IP address 209.232.54.19

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Flower power!

LOL.

Are the G1 and kin any warmer than the A2? Pros/cons of the mouton collar (and what the hell is "mouton" anyway?)

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 12:48 AM
from IP address 141.154.228.34

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flight jackets

my dad bought the french flying jacket from silvermans over ten years ago. it still looks fantastic and he wears it daily. i'd make sure you get the correct fur collar (it is removable)as the fixing system is different to the usa collars. the bundeswehr leather jacket is quite good and silvermans used to sell the for 50 pounds (not sure of the current price)
personally i wear a russet goatskin a2 ( but they're not so good for the larger bellied gentleman)and i also own a buzz ricksons b-15 field mod with a fur collar and an alpha industries b-15 without fur. the buzz ricksons absolutely out classes the alpha jacket (wool insulation, better shell nylon etc etc) for replicas i'd go for buzz ricksons or aero leather.
tip 2 try not to oil the jaccket as the leather can become very soft and very fragile. treaat 'em mean....
ben

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:40 AM
from IP address 212.161.95.26

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How did you find your Buzz Ricksons (I thought it was Rickman)? (more)

by Bill

I thought they were almost impossible to find.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:48 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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leather jacket care...

Should they be given any kind of care or just completely ignored? Does this apply to both horsehide and goatskin?

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 11:45 AM
from IP address 141.154.228.34

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I'm of the completely ignore school, myself. (more)

by Bill

If you got drenched in mud, or bodily fluids, a good saddle soap. Otherwise, they are simply acquiring character.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 2:29 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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A particular kind of shearling -- I think... (more)

by Bill

The biggest consideration with mouton collars is whether or not they flatter the wearer's face -- honestly! That's the biggest consideration with collars of any kind. I have a long skinny face that looks naf sticking up out of a big, plush, very round mouton collar. On people with differently shaped faces they can be very flattering.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:46 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Make certain that it is REAL! (more)

by OCD

Hi Carlos -

The current G-1s use synthetic crap for the mouton collar. If you go the G-1 route, get it with a real mouton collar - it makes all the difference. And yes, it is shearling. Kinder and gentler on the neck.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:49 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.106

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How does the mouton/shearling hold up to getting wet?

Perhaps a curious question regarding a Navy jacket. But I suppose for a naval pilot to get wet means that he's really screwed up.

Since those mouton collars appear to have been dyed dark brown, does the dye hold up when wet? (this is New England after all -- only slightly drier than England proper, as you well know.)

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 11:51 AM
from IP address 141.154.228.34

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No idea but I'd bet it wouldn't feel all nummy pressed soaking to the cheek. (more)

by Bill

This mouton collar thing was to wear *inside airplanes*, I think -- as soon as airplanes had interiors, anyway. You don't see too many real biker jackets with mouton, and some patterns have wisely had removable mouton.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 2:33 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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The 'mouton thing' was for PILOTS, not bikers. (more)

by OCD

Hi Bill -

The real value of mouton on the collar is not so much the warmth but rather the lack of chafing as you keep turning your head around. A 'swivel head' is of great occupational value to a pilot, little to a biker. Less chafing with the mouton - and, of course, that warm fuzzy feeling.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 7:26 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.203

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Yes. (more)

by Mike (E)

It retains it's color, but mats up after a while, quicker than real mouton.

All that perspiration, you know.

Mike

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 7:51 PM
from IP address 209.232.54.166

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Goatskin vs. horsehide.

by OCD

Hi Mike -

Actually, horsehide is every bit as durable - more so, truth be told - as goat. Horsehide is also inherently waterresistant; You can wear the darn things in the rain for hours and stay dry, without them soaking through at all.

Goat is much more supple, though the heavier weight used in a jacket like the AN-J-3 makes it as stiff initially as the horse.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:54 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.106

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The British issue flying gloves are made of Goats/kid hide (more)

by James K

either in cream or green, very comfortable and a nice alternative to the US Nomex gloves.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 10:44 AM
from IP address 62.7.33.126

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The dread Wanker Factor

by Bill

To tell the truth, the main reason I wouldn't wear one of the classic American leather flight jackets is that I'd be afraid of someone like OCD seeing me in it and thinking "There goes another tragic wanker trying to look like a pilot..." This would probably not be the case if I had any sort of military or related background, but I don't. Rather pointedly the opposite, in fact. As it is, though, wearing an A2 would make me feel like Walter Mitty. Or rather, feel that I looked like Walter Mitty -- because I'm quite happy, delighted even, to walk around wearing what may well have been a British UDT diver's watch. But all anyone will ever say about that is "Gee, that watch looks old," or "That's a big old watch with sort of dirty brown numbers on it, isn't it?"

The A2 and similar are a sticking point in the way that cowboy boots have been, for me. If I knew how to ride a horse, I'd wear them, but I don't, so I don't.

Fortunately this doesn't apply to the majority of military outerwear, though I'd feel uncomfortable wearing more than one piece at a time. BDU trou and civilian shirt, okay; BDU trou and military shirt not okay. Jeans and milstyle shirt, okay; etc. So I can wear N-3B's, MA-1's (more danger of being mistaken for skinhead sympathies, there, than for a desire to be associated with military aviation)...

If I were OCD, or Bob, I'd wear 'em, and if I rode horses at all I'd have a pair of cowboy boots, because they look good.

Anybody else feel this way?

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 5:10 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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By these standards...

by Mike (E)

.. everyone who wore most every civilan-made leather bomber jacket would be a wanker, since the A-2 has pretty much inspired them all.

Besides, if you see anyone under the age of 70 wearing a classic-style, closely cut A2, they're not trying to make you think they're a pilot. They're trying to make you think they're Steve McQueen. Or perhaps the Fonz.

With regard to wearing other kit such as BDUs, there is another side to that as well. As far as I know it's still against regulations for service people to mix parts of the uniform with civilan clothing, though it may not be enforced. The Army is esp. big on that, because in the post-WW2 period lots of discharged soldiers would wear uniform items as clothing, and many also bought surplus uniforms and started wearing parts of them. Some of these people committed crimes, or were otherwise held in ill repute because they were drifters (domestic economic refugees). The resultant media images eventually compelled the Army to redesign the uniform. Nowadays, since BDUS are common street wear we may see this happening again. The Corps is already in the process of issuing new cammies.

I, for one, would love to buy one of those Richard James DPM suits.

Mike

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 8:09 PM
from IP address 209.232.54.166

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Wearing the A-2, and assorted Leather jackets...

by Suwei Chuang

Leather makes a great Windbreaker, and a great barrier to extremely hot objects which is one reason pilots, motorcyclists and drivers wear leather. For the motorcyclist, it's also a great insurance policy against "road rash".

The A-2 as well as the G-1 were designed as a summer jacket. It's worn on the airfield where the open spaces and aircraft engines increase windchill by several times, even during hot summer days. WW2 uniform specifications usually noted that a Shearling coat was to be worn over an A-2, much like an overcoat would go over a sportscoat.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 10:31 PM
from IP address 152.163.197.192

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It is starting to come into focus...

Thanks for that extra bit of information: I think I am beginning to understand the A2 and G1 designs. I see now why they have knit wool cuffs and hems, why they didn't have "handwarmer" type pockets, and why they were fit so closely. I get it!

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 5:18 AM
from IP address 141.154.226.111

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One of the reasons for no handwarmer pockets is (was)....

that officers were not supposed to stand around with their hands in their pockets! The same is also true for some uniform pants. For example, at the Naval Academy, the uniform pants worn for academic classes have only back pockets so that the midshipmen will not put their hands in the front pockets. These pants cut a very nice look, but, damn, I wish mine still fit!

Bob.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:20 AM
from IP address 63.48.129.72

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A slightly different interpretation...

Like you I have no military background, other than coming from a military family (mother's side). My intended military career was terminated before it could begin, but I do feel the same way -- yet my focus is mainly on insignia. To me someone who is wearing an A2 is not trying to look like a pilot -- it is after all a classic and almost universal piece of Americana, and I'd bet that most of the people who buy replica A2's in the US don't even realize what it is. Just perhaps that it has a classic old movie look about it.

Rather it is the guy wearing an A2 that has been covered with squadron patches and other military insignia that is trying to look like a pilot. After all, when was the last time you saw a real active duty military pilot wearing a plain A2 or G1? For me it is the insignia which demarks the line between ethical civilian wear and authentic military wear. To wear the latter, one should either be a pilot or a former pilot who has earned the right to wear each and every piece of insignia on it.

A grey area would be wearing an inherited vintage jacket (with insignia) from a family member who had served. Any thoughts from our former military pilots?

Since I was a kid I have coveted a "Flying Tigers" A2. You know the one with the "blood chit" sewn onto the back or into the lining? But nowadays manufacturers seem to only make full replicas of "Flying Tigers" jackets with all of the patches and insignia in addition to the blood chit, and these I flatly reject as unacceptable. Is this walking too fine a line?

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 2:43 AM
from IP address 141.154.226.111

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Now that you mention it, I think I wound up this way (more)

by Bill

in reaction to those patch-covered Avirex jobs, the ambience in the old Cockpit store in Beverly Hills.

Aero, by the way, will do you an A2 with just the blood chit, I believe.

But having been headed in this direction, I was driven further by (1) the cut, which may have been very practical in a cockpit, but arguably isn't, at large, (2) the type and positioning of the pockets (which I have read was specified in part as a preventative for pilots standing "arms akimbo", which may well be myth) and (3) the discovery of Aero's reproductions of incredibly bitchin' civilian jackets which I had long coveted in vintage clothing shops but had been unable to wear because they are invariably much too short in the body.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 6:44 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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I have a useful niche for the A2/G1...

Last winter I picked up an absurdly expensive high-grade fleece pullover to put the type on trial so to speak, using it for light outerwear in autumn/spring, and during winter as a warm-up layer indoors or an intermediate layer outdoors. Naturally the synthetic fleece has the annoying tendency to get dirty instantly somehow, but at least it is machine washable -- which I can't say for tweed sportcoats (I HATE having to go to the dry cleaners).

So I was just about to order up a bunch more of these overpriced fleece things, but now that I understand the proper role of the A2/G1 I could just substitute one of those, and it would require no care and last forever. That sounds like a plan.

For wear in real cold I would follow your example and go for one of those heavy-duty horsehide civilian jobs from Aero, or with my wool winter coats or my polar-grade parka.

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 8:40 AM
from IP address 141.154.226.111

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The most hilarious scenario is when... (more)

by Bob

Hi Bill,

When a wannabee wanker in full regalia wanders into a bar and starts talking his trash and a group of real military types walk in. You can identify the real deal. They will be the angry looking souls with short haircuts, not wearing anything remotely military.

I've sat at a bar a couple of times when just such a scenario played out. Usually the faker exits in a hurry when he realizes his gig is up.

Bob

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 3:39 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.116

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Exactly the scenario I'd want to avoid! nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 6:47 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Right Bloody Wankers! ... (some more)

by OCD

Hi Bill, Carlos et alia -

And there are plenty of them out there, I suppose.

Seriously, the A-2, or better put, jackets derived from the A-2, have become a widely accepted part of the culture. It doesn't faze me in the least to see someone wearing a flight jacket. The wearing of 'flight jackets' is so widespread that I don't consider it any reliable indication that the wearer is, or is trying to pass for, a pilot. Flight jackets are really very practical pieces of outerware for many purposes other than getting into airplanes with open cockpits.

Carlos hit the nail a good one when he brought up the issue of badges and patches.

I really wouldn't have a problem with someone wearing a bloodchit on the outside of a jacket as a stylish touch. Sixty years later, I really doubt that there will be much of a problem with misinterpretation. The bloodchit is no more specific than an American flag on the shoulder.

I do have a problem with wearing patches and badges that suggest membership in a given unit, etc., when you haven't earned the right to them. I'm not going to be seen wearing an Eighth Air Force insignia, or a patch from a squadron to which I never belonged. You earn such things. The bar bozo that Bob described is a worm.

I don't have any patches on my jackets. They are as sterile as they come.

I wear them not to look like a pilot (well, you could ask Bob about my haircut, I suppose) but because I like them. I wear polo shirts, too, without playing any polo.

And I have a couple of pair of Lucchese boots, just to get Bill going.

Cheers,

OCD

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 7:17 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.203

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Bloodchits...

Now that I have the official stamp of approval -- and ways to get it without the other insignia, what were the authentic implementations of the bloodchit? I've seen them in silk and in leather, placed outside on the back and sewn into the jacket lining.

What are Lucchese boots???

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 9:02 AM
from IP address 141.154.226.111

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A brand of ...

... cowwboy boot.

http://www.lucchese.com

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 9:52 AM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Fabulous Fabio-like mane? Waist-length braided pigtail? Luxuriant mullet?

by Bill

Now we all want to know!

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:27 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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More like ...

by OCD

High and Tight.

'Demo Dick' Marcinko can get away with the pony tail; I don't think that it would work on me.

H&G,

OCD

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:33 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.133

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I seem to be working toward the "Republican mohawk", myself. :-) nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:35 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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One more jacket question for ol'scruffy...

What are your imressions of the A1? The modern replicas don't use capeskin like your vintage one but I do find its wool collar to be interesting: How comfy is it in real life?

I admit that the buttoned front of the A1 puts me off a bit, as my experience with buttons is a mixed one, but I do like the overall aesthetic of the design.

Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 1:50 AM
from IP address 141.154.225.253

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I like it ...

by OCD

Hi Carlos -

Actually, the only vintage flight jacket that I own is my Dad's A-2 from WWII. He flew in the CBI Theatre, and has one of those multipiece, hand-tooled leather blood chits on the back. The other insignia, like the CBI insignia and the Army Air Forces patch, are also hand tooled leather, except for the squadron insignia, which was beautifully embroidered, also in India (present day Bangladesh).

My other jackets are much more recent. They are things I wear.

My A-1 is actually capeskin. About ten years ago Willis & Geiger made some up from capeskin; this is one of them. At present most of the good names making jackets are using horsehide for their A-1s; getting large enough pieces of capeskin, tanned the right way and dyed the right color, to do it right is virtually impossible in the small quantities that this little segment of the market supports.

A-1s were funny in that they were quite inconsistent from one jacket to the next. There was a lot of modification and customizing. Not all jackets had the straight up, stove pipe like collar with the two latch buttons. Many had a collar like those on a baseball jacket.

Mine had the stove pipe with buttons but I had it changed to the baseball collar for comfort. I have an oak stump for a neck (always have had a thick neck, and, some say, a head to match) and the original collar was too tight for me.

I find it very comfortable. The drape is very nice but I suspect that comes from the capeskin, primarily.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 4:14 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.72

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So desu...

That explains the difference between USA Authentic's A1 vs. Aero's and Lost Worlds' A1s.

I too have a tree trunkish neck (18"), so the baseball style would evidently be best for me as well. I've been called "bull-headed" at times -- is this the same as thick-headed?

I suppose a G1's mouton collar would be more versatile since one can leave it down, or turn it up and button it. And I could get a silk bloodchit sewn into the lining...

Do you have your dad's A2 on display? It sounds like an amazing piece of history, and of course a priceless personal memento and heirloom.

Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 4:37 AM
from IP address 141.154.225.253

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Meteor-watchers nearly zapped by Leonids

by Bill

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-meteor.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:50 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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TGI*TG-I'm HUNGRY!Have a SAFE one all!<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 3:16 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Injuries in the movies (more)

by James K

I was watching an episode of band of brothers and saw a man get shot in the neck. This remined me of a scen in saving private ryan and another in Pearl harbour. I cannot remember treating a man for a gun shot or blast injury to the neck in twenty years of being a medic so I did some checking.
I kept a record of all the casualties I have treated and found that in 20 years I have treated 273 recorded battle/war related injuries. 75% were minor and non life threatening of the others the vast majority were to the lower limbs, only three GSW to the torso, one decapitation, a knife wound to the scrotum and most of the others burns or blast injuries.
My experience is the opposite to the scenes shown in most war films.
Hope this was of interest
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 2:45 AM
from IP address 194.66.72.204

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A very graphic scene,indeed!Is it your...more

by Ronbo

understanding, James, that the colder the climate the better chance for survival- due to less chance of bleeding out before medics arrive,or is that another Hollywood fable?Thanks-Ronbo.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 3:13 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Yes reduced blood flow to the pheriperies (more)

by James K

increases the chances of survival because it reduces the effect of shock (loss of circulationg body fluids). However this also reduces the effect of morphine which often pools where it was injected, soldiers then fill their buddies with extra syretts in an effort to relieve their pain and when the casualty warms up they get a huge dose of Morphine which kills them stone dead!
On the whole though cold conditions can help preserve life of a casualty.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 4:32 AM
from IP address 194.80.64.198

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Thanks James.<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 5:10 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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The difference is ...

by OCD

this one is documented in the book. If I remember correctly, this poor fellow spent several years in military hospitals, and passed away circa 1948 in one, a delayed death from his injury.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 4:46 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.104

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The injuries in BoB....

by SideB

...were sustained during some of the most intensive close quarters fighting of WWII. In terms of scale there hasn't been much to match it since.
I'm sure you are right in terms of statistics. I did noticed many extras sporting 'minor' wounds but it was the experience of seeing a buddy die or get seriously injured that seared the most lasting impression and that is what the film-makers have recorded.
What I also noticed was that the medics made almost no attempt at resuscitation - is it that techniques had yet to be developed or just that there were other more pressing priorities to attend to such as those still living?
All the best,
Simon

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 6:25 AM
from IP address 64.12.104.48

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Latest teaching is BFA (more)

by James K

Battlefield First Aid save only those who stand a reasonable chance of survival AND eventual return to duty. Resusitation is no longer taught for Battlefield first aid, in low intensity ops it is practiced but in all out battle your time and efforts can be better spent on those who will probably make it.
In two episodes of BOB there are neck injuries and whilst I dont doubt for a second that such injuries do ocurr I find it strange that I have never seen one, pretty much everything else but no gunshot wounds to the neck. Quite a few head injuries though.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 7:05 AM
from IP address 194.66.72.204

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The meticulous descriptions of wounds sustained in the Battle of Mogadishu (more)

by Bill

left me with an entirely non-Hollywood sense of what this is like. In some cases the experience of the wound had been described to the writer (of BLACK HAWK DOWN) by the man who'd recieved it. One man was shot in the shoulder, discovered the tip of an AK bullet protruding from the flesh (all of this, in the moment, painless), reached up to pluck it out, and painfully burned his fingers!

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:07 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Most of the traumas I see are bad ones (more)

by Bob

Hi James,

I rarely get called out for a "simple flesh wound." If it requires my attention, it's bad... Mostly Gunshot Wounds to the Torso or head. Gunshot wounds to the extremities don't really require my presence unless the victim risks bleeding out.

That being said, I generally encounter open heart massages, pneumothorax, cardiac tamponade and other assorted life threatening traumas on a fairly regular basis. In the last month, I'd say about half a dozen give or take.

The US Army sends their trauma surgeons to Martin Luther King Hospital for training. This hospital has been labelled "Killer King" by some wags. Who would suspect that one would see so many GSWs in an urban environment? Go figure.

Best,

Bob

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:33 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.116

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Some examples (more)

by James K

Soldier from 2 Para injured in Falklands 1982, high velocity gunshot entry wound to upper right side of chest, exit wound left shoulder. Casualty lived. Full recovery.

Sailor Royal Navy, Falklands 1982 major burns on head torso both arms and legs, right arm torn off and lower left leg missing. Casualty lived. partial recovery.

SAS soldier Falklands 1982. left leg blown off by mine
Casualty lived. still serving.

Sailor NGS, Falklands 1982 shrapnel wounds to both legs, casualty lived full recovery.

Civillian Belfast 1987, fractured skull after being hit with brick several times, casualty lived.

Soldier unamed unit, Belfast 1988 shot in upper right chest with low velocity weapon of medium calibre, whilst sat in car, exit wound through back. second (minor)gunshot wound to head. casualty lived,

Infantry Soldier Royal Welch Fusiliers 1992, Bosnia high velocity gunshot wound, entry wound in abdomen exit wound through left side. Casualty lived.

Guardsman, Bosnia 1993 multiple stab wounds to lower abdomen and scrotum, casualty lived,

Dutch Royal Marine, serious burns due to vehicle fire, casualty lived.

Royal Candian Engineer, 1996 crushed from waist down whilst rescuing members of British Army in Bosnia, after his APC turned over. Died despite three hour attempt to save him.

Soldier Queens Dragood Guards Bosnia 1996, broken neck after vehicle drove over mine, eventual partial recovery still serving.

Child Bosnia 1994, both arms blown off by butterfly mine. casualty lived.

As you can see the injuries suffered by people in wartime vary wildly but in general survival rates are quite good.

Regards James K

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 11:25 AM
from IP address 62.7.22.33

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Excuse the now usual typos. nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 11:56 AM
from IP address 62.7.108.184

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Here's a Feng Shui secret I just learned! (more)

by Bob

Hi MWRines,

I might be letting the cat out of the bag by letting people in on a secret I just learned. I'm not sure if all of you know what Feng Shui is. It's basically the manipulation of one's surroundings to make an impact on finances, health and emotions. At the most elementary level, it involves the selective placement of one's home furnishings to properly enhance the harmony of one's home.

Well recently I moved around some furnishings and relocated my office to enhance my personal feng shui. Low and behold, I found my cat lounging on a sofa that he used to avoid like the plague. I also find that my cat spends an inordinate amount of time in my office when I am not home. In their previous locations, my cat avoided both. I think I am on to something. Animals know nothing of Feng Shui, which is a human concept. Yet, animals do have a keen sense of what's right and wrong in nature. Next time I move some furniture, I will have to pay close attention to whether or not my cat approves of the move. Is this nuts or what?

Bob

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 11:17 PM
from IP address 4.35.218.34

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The problem is...

...that you've only got one cat. When you have a few cats, you'll know you've got it right when they all compete to sit in the same spot, or pig pile in certain locations repeatedly.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 1:15 AM
from IP address 141.154.225.169

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I'm a strong believer of this technique . . .

by CJ

Hi Bob

If this works for you than that's all that really
matters , there is also another belief when you 1st walk into your home from the front door that if you face a window is a sign that you'll be spending the money

as you earn it and if ther isn't a window you'll
come into a fortune

or earn more money by spending less

Happiness and good fortune to you .

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 2:38 AM
from IP address 172.138.166.128

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Don't let that cat sleep on your chest!LOL<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 3:15 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Looked into it for my architecture, but realized I was already (more)

intuiting most of it already. It just feels right/makes sense. One thing I don't adhere to is not placing a window opposite the front door. I especially like the calm immediate vision of space beyond the 4 walls, and always place a window/door there. Clients can't resell their houses to Chinese folk easily afterward, though, which is a bit of a problem in Vancouver.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 7:48 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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i believe. more

by bob w.

hello to all,

it explains the favorite room. why sleep is better some places. in fact when i move, i go to the bedroom and sleep on the floor for a night. then i find the position i end up and then that is how i place the bed. if you find the compass bearing you can use this for hotels. leads to better sleep.

sounds crazy. but then i collect watches and a bunch of other things...

regards,
bob w.

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 5:57 AM
from IP address 152.163.204.209

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alcohol warnings

by Bill

http://www.madblast.com/oska/humor_warnings.swf

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 3:45 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Excellent !!!.......nt

.

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 6:04 PM
from IP address 207.172.11.233

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Wabi-Sabi returns to high fidelity audio.

I've been reading through the MWR archives over the past couple of days and ran across all of those old posts regarding our Western interpretation of "Wabi-Sabi" and milwatches. I realized then that a new bit of audio equipment I recently picked up may be of interest to the Wabi enthusiast, so here's a quick look at the Henry Kloss Model One table radio from Tivoli Audio:

Do you remember when audio/visual equipment was manufactured like fine furniture? This small table radio contains all of the latest audiophile technological trickery, and even breaks some new ground in radio reception technology, while dispensing completely with the slick and alien plastic look of most small mid-fi radios/mini-systems. There no digital silliness or buttons. The knobs have a heavy and solid feel when turned, and the off/fm/am knob snaps very positively into postion -- it feels like it is connected to a extremely heavy duty switch. The analog tuning knob likewise has that heavy feel, and is geared for precise tuning. The yellow LED brightens and fades in response to signal strength which makes tuning easy.

It is only about 4x5x8 inches, and weighs about 5 pounds. The cabinet is wood, in this case solid walnut. One nice touch is that the cabinet is all from a single piece of wood, and they've matched up the grain all the way 'round. This is the "Classic" colour option, and it was hard to find pictures showing what it actually looks like -- the images on Tivoli's website gave it a silverish face and a dark red-brown look to the walnut. In reality the face is a pale beige, and the oiled walnut looks like it has faded in the Sun -- just a bit darker that the pic above. A couple of the other colours are shown below. The blue is very nice in person, but not wabi.

The sound of course is magnificient, but that is what you would expect from Henry Kloss. For classical music it is perfect -- very "airy." It also works well all the way through the music spectrum to heavy metal, except for some songs with extremely heavy bass where you don't quite get the full audio image. For that really heavy "thump" you'd need the stereo Model Two which can take an optional subwoofer. But IMO the greater complexity of multiple (3) boxes misses the whole point of this little beauty which is an hommage and advance on Kloss' hi-fi radios of the 1960s, like the KLH Model 21.

Demoing the radio in the showroom was decidedly unimpressive, but that was due to the huge size of the showroom and the noise from other sound systems, televisions, etc. In a normal sized living room or bedroom it really shines. I've yet to need to turn it up past 1/4 when really blasting it. In the end it is just a small table radio, but IMO it is pretty much a perfect one.

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 2:17 PM
from IP address 141.154.225.184

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Love it. The local audiophile place has a few. (more)

by Bill

The other units there whose look really grabs me are amps with huge Russian-made vacuum tubes. The tubes are mounted on the top of the console so you can enjoy them sculpturally and watch the glow in the dark!

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 3:05 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Paul Klipsch speakers

by Alan N.

Is hi-fi still what it used to be? Or better, maybe? Been a while since I checked it out.

When I was about fifteen, I was at a neighbor kid's house, and we were goofing around with his dad's hi-fi stuff in the den. Had a strange turntable, which allowed some ultra low RPMs, maybe 5 or so. He wanted to show off the new Klipsches, so he spun a rock 'n' roll "45" at this super low RPM, with the volume cranked up nearly all the way. It was sort of like that Maxell ad with the guy's tie blowing away.

His mom came running down the stairs, thinking that a garbage truck had just slowly plowed into the house.

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 9:37 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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I guess...

...it also makes it easy to replace a tube when one burns out. Does sort of cater to the fetish for tubes that some modern audiophiles have.

The Tivoli radio merged seamlessly into my decor, which on the whole is very stark and austere. Mostly Modernist (50's & '60s designed) pieces in pale woods -- I'd guess you'd call it the Scandinavian palette: Eames low wire-base table, Aalto stool, etc.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 9:17 AM
from IP address 141.154.227.14

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Got an old 'Telefunken'from my grand-parents-still works!<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 4:08 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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There's an intense Telefunken collectors scene (more)

by Bill

that isn't so different from milwatches. Lots of action on eBay, usually.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 11:03 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Did a quick ebay search ...

... and came up with a whole Swiss Radio Museum for sale!

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1033799483

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 8:16 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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So odd that his other auction is not a $770,000 museum, but this:

A carpenter's level. Sweet scale comparison.

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 9:44 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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Maybe he used it to build the museum? nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:25 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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My Dad had a KLH Model 21; it was great! nt

by OCD

nt

Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 7:20 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.203

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Man, you've had all the cool toys! nt

.

Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 4:38 AM
from IP address 141.154.225.253

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Proof that Humour doesn't always translate!

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991584

Taliban nuclear documents mirror spoof article

18:36 19 November 01
Nicola Jones

Documents found strewn on the floor of a Taliban recruitment centre in Kabul, apparently describing how to build a thermonuclear device, may not be as frightening as they first seem.

The papers were picked out by BBC correspondent John Simpson and showed, he said, "how dangerous Bin Laden's Al Qaeda network aspired to be".

But the sentences shown in focus by the camera also come from a famous document called "Weekend Scientist: Let's Make a Thermonuclear Device", which was first published in 1979 as a humour piece by The Journal of Irreproducible Results.

The paper was written in response to US court decisions of the time that restricted popular magazines from detailing how to make a bomb. Since all the information is freely available in public libraries anyway, the author said, he decided to provide a humorous "ten easy steps" proving how easy bomb building can be.

Written in jest

While the gist of these instructions may be accurate, for example giving suggested relative proportions of plutonium and TNT, they are written completely in jest.

The first instruction tells readers to obtain weapons grade plutonium at their "local supplier". It continues: "A nuclear power plant is not recommended, as large quantities of missing plutonium tends to make plant engineers unhappy. We suggest you contact your local terrorist organization."

The US Department of Energy generally refuses to comment on the accuracy of such documents. But they do say that about five kilograms of plutonium is theoretically enough to make a nuclear explosive device, while the recipe in The Journal of Irreproducible Results calls for 110 kilograms of plutonium.

Cloned wife

The BBC film only allows a few parts of the documents to be read, but these few phrases are exactly as found in the 1979 paper: "Theory of operation ... the device basically works when ... critical mass then produces a nuclear chain reaction ... Plutonium (PU), atomic number ... and is similar in ...".

"From what I've seen, this is certainly a shortened version of the original article," says Marc Abrahams, former editor of The Journal of Irreproducible Results.

Some of the more obviously absurd parts of the original are missing from the document in Kabul, such as a paragraph starting "in next month's column, we will learn how to clone your neighbor's wife in six easy steps." The Kabul document also has paragraph returns in odd places, as if someone had cut and pasted the text.

Even so, says Abrahams, "if you spend half a second scanning any of this you should be able to tell it's a joke." He adds that if the instructions were made more believable by removing the ridiculous parts, there would be practically nothing left.

Simpson noted that the Afghan secret service had visited the centre before him and removed documents. He also qualified his report by saying that "maybe the really dangerous-sounding documents on nuclear fission and missiles were just fantasy".

BBC press officer Chris Reed in London: "It's safe to say that he chose his words with care. I need to get to the bottom of it."

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 10:33 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Here's the Original....

http://winn.com/bs/atombomb.html

How To Build An Atom Bomb

The following paper is taken from The Journal of Irreproducible Results, Volume 25/Number 4/1979. P.O. Box 234 Chicago Heights, Illinois 60411

1.INTRODUCTION

Worldwide controversy has been generated recently from several court decisions in the United States which have restricted popular magazines from printing articles which describe how to make an atomic bomb. The reason usually given by the courts is that national security would be compromised if such information were generally available. But, since it is commonly known that all of the information is publicly available in most major metropolitan libraries, obviously the court's officially stated position is covering up a more important factor; namely, that such atomic devices would prove too difficult for the average citizen to construct. The United States courts cannot afford to insult the vast majorities by insinuating that they do not have the intelligence of a cabbage, and thus the "official" press releases claim national security as a blanket restriction.

The rumors that have unfortunately occurred as a result of widespread misinformation can (and must) be cleared up now, for the construction project this month is the construction of a thermonuclear device, which will hopefully clear up any misconceptions you might have about such a project. We will see how easy it is to make a device of your very own in ten easy steps, to have and hold as you see fit, without annoying interference from the government or the courts.

The project will cost between $5,000 and $30,000, depending on how fancy you want the final product to be. Since last week's column, "Let's Make a Time Machine", was received so well in the new step-by-step format, this month's column will follow the same format.
2.CONSTRUCTION METHOD

1.First, obtain about 50 pounds (110 kg) of weapons grade Plutonium at your local supplier (see NOTE 1). A nuclear power plant is not recommended, as large quantities of missing Plutonium tends to make plant engineers unhappy. We suggest that you contact your local terrorist organization, or perhaps the Junior Achievement in your neighborhood.

2.Please remember that Plutonium, especially pure, refined Plutonium, is somewhat dangerous. Wash your hands with soap and warm water after handling the material, and don't allow your children or pets to play in it or eat it. Any left over Plutonium dust is excellent as an insect repellant. You may wish to keep the substance in a lead box if you can find one in your local junk yard, but an old coffee can will do nicely.

3.Fashion together a metal enclosure to house the device. Most common varieties of sheet metal can be bent to disguise this enclosure as, for example, a briefcase, a lunch pail, or a Buick. Do not use tinfoil.

4.Arrange the Plutonium into two hemispheral shapes, separated by about 4 cm. Use rubber cement to hold the Plutonium dust together.

5.Now get about 100 pounds (220 kg) of trinitrotoluene (TNT). Gelignite is much better, but messier to work with. Your helpful hardware man will be happy to provide you with this item.

6.Pack the TNT around the hemisphere arrangement constructed in step 4. If you cannot find Gelignite, fell free to use TNT packed in with Playdo or any modeling clay. Colored clay is acceptable, but there is no need to get fancy at this point.

7.Enclose the structure from step 6 into the enclosure made in step 3. Use a strong glue such as "Crazy Glue" to bind the hemisphere arrangement against the enclosure to prevent accidental detonation which might result from vibration or mishandling.

8.To detonate the device, obtain a radio controlled (RC) servo mechanism, as found in RC model airplanes and cars. With a modicum of effort, a remote plunger can be made that will strike a detonator cap to effect a small explosion. These detonatior caps can be found in the electrical supply section of your local supermarket. We recommend the "Blast-O-Mactic" brand because they are no deposit-no return.

9.Now hide the completed device from the neighbors and children. The garage is not recommended because of high humidity and the extreme range of temperatures experienced there. Nuclear devices have been known to spontaneously detonate in these unstable conditions. The hall closet or under the kitchen sink will be perfectly suitable.

10.Now you are the proud owner of a working thermonuclear device! It is a great ice-breaker at parties, and in a pinch, can be used for national defense.

3.THEORY OF OPERATION

The device basically works when the detonated TNT compresses the Plutonium into a critical mass. The critical mass then produces a nuclear chain recation similar to the domino chain reaction (discussed in this column, "Dominos on the March", March, 1968). The chain reaction then promptly produces a big thermonuclear reaction. And there you have it, a 10 megaton explosion!

4.NEXT MONTH'S COLUMN

In next month's column, we will learn how to clone your neighbor's wife in six easy steps. This project promises to be an exciting weekend full of fun and profit. Common kitchen utensils will be all you need.

See you next month!

5.NOTES

1. Plutonium (PU), atomic number 94, is a radioactive metallic element formed by the decay of Neptunium and is similar in chemical structure to Uranium, Saturium, Jupiternium, and Marisum.

6.PREVIOUS MONTH'S COLUMNS
1.Let's Make Test Tube Babies! May, 1979
2.Let's Make a Solar System! June, 1979
3.Let's Make an Economic Recession! July, 1979
4.Let's Make an Anti-Gravity Machine! August, 1979
5.Let's Make Contact with an Alien Race! September, 1979

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 3:35 PM
from IP address 142.104.250.115

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I can picture a couple of guys I knew >>>

by Gwen

... from high school trying to follow these instructions! What a hoot! I'd love to read the wife cloning column.

Thanks for the laugh

Gwen

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 4:16 PM
from IP address 199.237.89.16

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Does Wilkinson(swords) have a website?<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:10 PM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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Here 'tis..

by Ned

http://www.wilkinson-swords.co.uk/

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:57 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Ok, will anyone else admit....

by Alan N.

.. that before this post, you also thought Wilkinson Sword was just a brand of razor blades?

Well, now I know...

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 9:03 PM
from IP address 66.32.37.52

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Received a catalog in the 7o's as a 12 year old..more

by Ronbo

and they knew I couldn't possibly afford one of their swords then.That to me is the mark of a truly Fine bunch of Folks!Cheers-Ronbo.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 9:51 PM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Nope, grew up with ...

.. Wilkinson Sword garden shears in the garage.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 9:56 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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i believe her majesty uses a "wilkie" when she knights people...

by ghost.dog

but i'm not 100% - they also made the sword presented to the people of stalingrad (or whatever its called now

as a symbol of solidarity post ww2. its a fine peice of cutlery...

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 6:01 AM
from IP address 212.161.95.26

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Stalingrad

by Philip

Stalingrad is now Volgagrad.

I only know this because I am going there, with the army, on a battlefield tour after Christmas.

Anybody for a Vostok?

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 8:21 AM
from IP address 195.195.42.108

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Yep and the Swords of Honour at RNA Dartmouth, RMA Sandhurst and RAF Cramwell. nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 10:07 AM
from IP address 62.7.38.29

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Thats Cranwell not Cramwell. nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 10:33 AM
from IP address 62.7.38.29

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Whew!That's a relief.LOL<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 2:36 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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My new arrival

by Ian Parkin

2 used nappies/diapers to the person who can id the watch.

IAP

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:01 PM
from IP address 24.20.167.174

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Hamilton 6B, ( but can we change the prize?) nt.

.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:20 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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And CONGRATS! nt

.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:21 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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Nice arrival, congratulations Ian! nt

by Alan N.

dddddddddd

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:48 PM
from IP address 66.32.37.52

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Congratulations Ian!!!!!! Seiko RAF? (nt)

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 10:30 PM
from IP address 210.181.4.120

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Simply WONDERFUL! Congratulations...nt

nt

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 9:48 AM
from IP address 66.20.158.46

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Congratualtions Ian, chuffed to bits for you. nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 10:35 AM
from IP address 62.7.38.29

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Thanks folks and the watch is ..

by Ian Parkin

an Omega 53.

Looks as if I get to keep the diapers. Lucky me.

IAP

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 1:10 PM
from IP address 24.20.167.174

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Congratulations from a fellow new father!

Aloha Ian,

Fantastic news! Hope you're getting some help now, otherwise you're probably not sleeping too well. I'm suffering from lack of sleep as I write this (1-1/2 hours last night, and came to the office) now that my wife's parents have returned home to Honolulu. Thank goodness that the Thanksgiving holiday is tomorrow, and we also have Friday off!

Get used to those diapers Ian, last night I changed my daughter three times before I was able to get her off the changing table! One of the greatest inventions is the Diaper Genie, which stores my disposable diapers without odour!

Mahalo,

andy

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 2:16 PM
from IP address 205.173.95.39

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Big baby ..

by Ian Parkin

Hello Andy,

We have some help from neighbours and friends. I'm also working from home, which is a great help. Sleep still at a premium though.

He was pretty big at birth - 10 lbs 13 ozs - and, touch wood, is a good sleeper. We give him big feeds during the night and he is capable of a good 3-4 hour stretch.

Yeah, we have had a few multiple poops/hour situations. They can be a little bit tedious at 4am. To be honest, I actually like changing him, father-child bonding and all that. I've made it into a bit of a ritual, complete with a little song to keep him entertained. It would seem that he likes my singing as he has not yet sprayed me with anything.

IAP

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 4:09 PM
from IP address 24.20.167.174

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Watch Your Baby Claiming Your Watch....Congratulations

by CJ

Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 2:47 AM
from IP address 172.138.166.128

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Congrats Ian.nt

by Yao

/

Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 9:01 PM
from IP address 151.197.245.16

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Tactical Blade Tuesday: There will always be an England!

Yes there is even a song about this sword ("Black Blade," Blue Oyster Cult),
conceived by British author Michael Moorcock for his Elric novels, and brought to
life in recent years by Raven Armoury in England.

Photos borrowed from somewhere or other.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 4:49 AM
from IP address 141.154.226.167

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Damned right there will be. (more)

by James K

rather strange looking sword by the way.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 10:42 AM
from IP address 213.1.71.122

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Hmm, a bit Gothic, how about this one ...

.... more to my taste.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 10:43 AM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Hi Martin, do you really like these? got issued one once (more)

by James K

- when they were still an issue item, not sure that they still are.
I will see if its still in the back of the cupboard with all the other unused, unloved junk.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 10:48 AM
from IP address 213.1.71.122

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Kicking myself for not ...

... buying the one I saw on Portolbello road. Funny thing is, as a kid I found one that someone had carved out of wood, and put into a proper F-S leather scabbard.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 7:44 PM
from IP address 142.104.250.115

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maybe the wooden one was a training knife? (nt)

by bob w.

nt

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 4:08 PM
from IP address 205.188.195.57

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Does Wilkinson also make the...

by Bill H

current MOD survival knife? I visited the Wilkinson Sword plant back in 86. Quite impressive. Lots of too cool stuff. I STILL wish I had one of the newer MOD issue survival knives though.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 7:57 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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Yes they also make the improved SA80 Bayonet (more)

by James K

Wilkie is a very good and well established firm. As for the survival knife I will keep my eyes open see what turns up.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 12:35 AM
from IP address 194.66.72.229

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wierd co-incidence my brother worked there.....

by ghost.dog

when he was 16 (around 1990) - he did his "work experience" there making belt buckles, they also have some very cool timber wolves as guard dogs. they used to make some wicked riverboatmans knives....

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 11:17 AM
from IP address 212.161.95.26

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And you think you've had a bad day?

by Alan N.

My friend Len brought this bizarre film into work today, for some talk about digestive diseases he had to give. The poor snake thought he was eating some tasty eggs. Instead he wound up with two golf balls in his belly, along with a whopping bowel obstruction. Poor snake, I guess he was only hungry.

(By the way, didn't Jethro Clampett once find some golf eggs, and later Granny tried to fry them up to eat?)

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 10:30 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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That image would make one hell of a weird t-shirt. nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 11:27 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Probably could be arranged, limited run of one! nt

by Alan N.

dddddddddddddd

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:49 PM
from IP address 66.32.37.52

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Mind if we play through?LOL<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 12:26 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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I bet when they were below the neck he was 1 sexy snake!<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 2:52 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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and you thought a kidney stone passing would hurt.....(nt)

by bob w.

nt

Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 9:16 AM
from IP address 64.12.102.173

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Mallory-Irving 1924 Everest expedition, and an Ingersoll watch?

by Alan N.

Got this email a few days ago, rather serious request for watch info help. When Mallory's body was found in 1999, there was a watch also found on him. I'm trying to get a picture of the watch, and movement from Mr. Rae. Should not be too hard to figure out if it's Ingersoll, if the watch is reasonably intact. Does anyone have any idea?

On Mallory, they say he had a pocket Brownie camera with Kodak film. They're still looking for that camera, hoping the film's still good, to see if the pictures tell that they may have summitted, before dying on the way back.

-----------------------------
Hello Alan,

I'm trying to find out about the history of the Ingersoll Watch
company.
Where do they originate and do they have any Archives that can be
accessed.

Specifically I want to know did they supply watches to the 1924
Mallory-Irving Everest Expedition. I believe they did but want to
find some
proof.

Thanks,

Eugene Rae
Librarian

Royal Geographical Society
(with The Institute of British Geographers)
1 Kensington Gore, London SW7 2AR
http://www.rgs.org

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 10:21 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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The best (so far) ..

... date I can find concerning Ingersoll is a quick history of TIMEX

http://www.americantime.com/news/stories/21800a.shtml

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 11:40 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Thanks, I referred him to www.timexpo.com.. more

by Alan N.

There's a curator there who might know. He's sending me a snail mail scan of the watch, so I'll wait to see what it looks like.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:51 PM
from IP address 66.32.37.52

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Were the Swiss behind it all? With Red Cross cover?

by Bill

Found in today's opinionjournal.com:

>>Meanwhile, the looniest conspiracy theory we've seen comes from a site
called Faschismus.com. We can't tell if these guys are serious or not, so
you be the judge:

>> >> Switzerland . . . is the least conspicuous suspect in the attack
against the World Trade Center. But perhaps just because it looks so
inconspicous [sic], a careful attention should be paid to its role in
organizing and financing terrorism and political assasinaitons [sic] around
the world. Switzerland's Red Cross has the capability to organize complex
terrorist attacks anywhere in the world and to escape the attention of
anti-terrorist units. The terror and systematic extermination of the
non-german [sic] minorities in Switzerland proves that this country's
German-speaking majority is capable of any brutality in order to achieve its
goals of German expansionism and domination.

I naturally quickly checked out www.faschismus.com, which appears to be
utterly serious. Or else, so straightfaced that it may as well be.

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 12:55 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Who else could have gotten the Teletubbies to do it? nt

1

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 1:52 PM
from IP address 63.98.108.211

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They forgot the Swiss French. The real cheese-eating surrender Monkeys...

by Ned

more sinister even than the German Swiss, and more numerous! Lest we forget the home to the Red Cross is in Geneve - the world capital of the French-Speaking Swiss.

These conspiracy theorists always seem to get it just wrong.

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 7:09 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Cowbells and terrorism...

by Alan N.

Sure, the Swiss were really keen on having all kinds of their assets frozen.

I "met" a young Turk while playing a backgammon game online Yahoo games (ok, I only played it once on the bad advice of a friend), soon after 9-11. A 21 year old law student, who seemed more interested in chatting in the chat box than rolling the darn dice, he said the Turkish papers had "proof" that the Japanese Red Army was behind the terrorist events, and that OBL was being wrongly accused of being behind the events. He was kind of a dope, but he beat me twice before I called it quits.

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 10:07 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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I believe Swiss cows are solely destroying the O-zone-who's with me?!

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 2:42 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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I read once, that if you hooked up a rubber hose...

by Alan N.

.. to the cow's, uh, tailpipe, and then connected the other end to a Graf Zeppelin, you could get the thing filled up in a couple days.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:52 PM
from IP address 66.32.37.52

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Okay, just what is a "Norge" shirt? nt

.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 7:29 PM
from IP address 141.154.225.29

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James must confirm, but I believe it's...

by Ned

a long sleeved, zippered, turtle neck shirt. A fleece type primary layer. Fantastically warm next to the skin. I was given one by a Biathlon buddy who was also with the German border patrol in Mittenwald. They also wear them as do some German army units (and British Military as well). The "Norge" is for Norway, where they originated.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 9:22 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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The Silverman's catalog has these. nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 12:57 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Thanks. nt

.

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 10:28 PM
from IP address 141.154.226.167

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Yep thats the ones. The US issues them or something similar (more)

by James K

under one of those long titles, something like ECWTL Extreme Cold Weather Thermal Layer (I doubt this is correct but its along these lines), calling it a Norge shirt is just too simple!
Top kit.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 12:40 AM
from IP address 194.66.72.204

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Light Infantry Bicycle & Other Options for Afghanistan

by Ned

Check out this link:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5265/atb.htm

It has a ton of information on the US's recent efforts to develop a military bicycle capability, and other unconventional options. Also some history of the effectiveness of bike troops in past conflicts. I got a huge kick out of it, and thought some of you might find it interesting as well.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 4:01 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Great site! Fascinating practical R&D stuff. (more)

by Bill

The page on portable individual gun-shields, for instance.

Vancouver police use mountain bikes in the downtown core and in large parks. Said to be very effective.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 7:28 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Spec ops on horseback and ATV's search for OBL (more)

by Bill

says front page of today's local paper.

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 1:00 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Here's the horsemen...

by Alan N.

When have we ever seen Department of Defense labelled photos looking like this? Can't tell who's who, but I assume some US/UK guys, and some of the home crew. Gotta love it, beyond Hollywood.

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 10:11 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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It's very STAR WARS, no? As are the names of the various (more)

by Bill

Alliance warlords. "Ghul", etc. The very phrase "Alliance warlord" is something Luke Skywalker would come out with! I keep expecting someone to turn up with feelers sticking out from under his turban...

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 11:41 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Yeah. I'd love to see these guys on horseback....

by Alan N.

This message has been edited by AlanN from IP address 66.32.125.56 on Nov 20, 2001 11:39 PM

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:58 PM
from IP address 66.32.37.52

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Hmmm. "Relaxed Uniform Standards." nt

by Mike (E)

nt

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 11:45 PM
from IP address 66.123.206.128

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No such thing as uniform standards in the field. Comfort is the word.nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 10:44 AM
from IP address 213.1.71.122

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What no rockets on the handlebars like in "Delta Farce"?

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 2:48 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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By the way, anyone see the Meteorite shower ..

... last night? I did, and it was the best I'd ever seen.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 12:36 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Got up, looked for it, couldn't see it. O well. nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 1:50 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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PEACE.........

by CJ

Best to you.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 8:24 PM
from IP address 172.162.0.203

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I went for it, but .... >>>>

by Bob A (SD)

At about 12:30am MST the scattered light clouds turned to overall mist then to a solid cloud cover. Temperatures dropped quickly with the front moving in and this morning I was greeted to the first snow of the season.

I shouldn't complain as we've been enjoying extremely unseasonable temperate conditions... last week several days above 70. And as far as snow goes, last year it was 23 September with a good foot plus.

Oh well...

Bob A (SD)
SD = South Dakota

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:05 PM
from IP address 65.7.152.107

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Wife & I watched for about an hour. Incredible.

by Ned

For a time they were coming every second or two at around 5 AM. Some were popping like flashbulbs, followed by a fat streak. Most were just the classic thin streaks of light. It was an awesome display. Doubled my lifetime total of "shooting star" sightings in an hour!!

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:08 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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I did, but it was more a sprinkle than a shower from my perspective (more)

by Bob

Hi Martin,

I kept looking up anxious to see a "shower." The most I saw were a few coming at intervals of 10 to 20 seconds. I never saw more than one at any given time. I don't know if it was because of the lights in the LA basin, but it was dark enough to see stars.

Best Regards,

Bob

This message has been edited by mkf from IP address 4.35.218.34 on Nov 18, 2001 2:51 PM

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:50 PM
from IP address 4.35.218.34

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Big disappointment here on Guam

by Bill H

We were stuck in the middle of a monsoon trough. Low, thick clouds, rain, and, to top it off, a power outage (about four a week here in paradise). Oh well...

Bill H

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:07 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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Saw it from 1.30 - 2.00 am. Mildly interesting rather than great (more)

Had heard an astronomist raving about the chance to see this on tv and realized it was about the same as one of us raving about the cogs in a JLC Mk X1. Yuh! No big deal outside their small esoteric world, really. Few shooting stars at five minute intervals. Or did I miss the finale? Anyone see more than that? (There was no music either).

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:09 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.205

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Cloudy, downright foggy around here, made my decision to just sleep much easier! nt

by Alan N.

nt

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 10:12 PM
from IP address 24.179.210.206

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I love that weather!Makes working nights easier.<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 2:45 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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Saw close to 100 in 15 minutes in Georgia. 4:45-5:00 NT

by Jeffc

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 5:04 AM
from IP address 143.100.37.61

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Just a thought but when we/you get (more)

by James K

Mullar Omar, Bin Laden and Co what are you going to do with them?
Fair trial followed by a good hanging?
Try him yourselves?
Let someone else do it? European court of human justice, might bind him over to keep the peace for 20 days and compensate him for the stress you have caused.
Let him go?
Dont bother trying him just shoot him out of hand?
Or sit and stare at him whilst we discuss it and let him die of old age?
Put him in a room with the relatives of the victims?
Give him a sex change, dress him as a tart and hand him over to the Taliban? (rather liked that one).
Give him a lethal injection in one state, fry him in another, shoot him somewhere else, do you still go in for hanging?......
All of the above?
You see the variations are endless so whats the plan?
things seem to be moving rather faster than expected.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 10:41 AM
from IP address 62.7.112.16

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James one of your suggestions is a lethal state injection >:-)

by CJ

From thehumorsource

Regards

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 11:24 AM
from IP address 172.162.69.76

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Follow their customs or those of the Turks >>>

by Bob A (SD)

I still remember being stationed north of San Francisco when we had a Turkish ship visting. One of their crew raped a local girl. They took him back and pulled out just into international waters and, despite State Department protests, hung the SOB from the yardarm. When they pulled back into port he was still hanging there in testiment to their brand of justice.

Accordingly I say put Ossama's head on a pike and display it at Ground Zero. Those who want to make him a martyr can be given room right next to him!

Bob A

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 12:36 PM
from IP address 65.7.152.107

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Trading places 1st ..........

by CJ

I believe you must have been in Oakland or Alameda in
the late 50's early 60's when the Turk got it..
(No intend of offending)
One cannot compare with the recent tragedy.
One or all of James options seems apropriate at
this stage and time will tell very soon.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 1:11 PM
from IP address 172.162.69.76

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Call me cynical, but I have always assumed that (more)

by Bill

he will be shot "resisting arrest" (as it were) and supposedly by someone Afghani. The actual scenario being that the "shooter" will be handed the smoking gun. "Good work, pal. He was clearly making a run for it."

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 1:56 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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I'll call you cynical if you can answer this 'moral' question !

by CJ

The moral question for you is an imaginary
situation, but let's see your decision on what would you'd do...
You're in Afganistan and there is a huge flood in progress everything is being lost and structures destroyed.
Let's say that you're a photographer and getting still
photos for a news service traveling alone looking for
particularly poignant scenes.
You come across Osama Bin Laden who has been swept away by the floodwaters and is barely hanging on to a tree limb and is about to go under.
You can either put down your camera and save him, or take a Pulitzer Prize winning photograph of him as he loses his grip on the limb.
So; Here's the question and think carefully before you
answer the question below:

Which lens and shutter speed would you use?

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:35 PM
from IP address 172.166.90.146

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Oh, this is old hat in ...

by OCD

Latin America, where it is referred to as the �Ley de Fuga�, the "Law of Flight".

The trick is explaining how someone fleeing from you was shot in the front, between the eyes, and has powder burns on his eyebrows.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 7:44 PM
from IP address 64.24.247.198

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A bit of fluff from the muff . Good one OCD.

by CJ

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 9:29 PM
from IP address 172.139.212.250

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But Sir, I was just cleaning my bayonet when all of a sudden, ...

by Mike (E)

UBL bursts into camp, and walks into it!

37 times!

Backwards!

Mike

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 3:57 PM
from IP address 206.79.181.253

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Believe the operant phrase is "killed in a shoot out with..."

by Ned

This works best for these situations. Going back to SAS Princess Gate operation in London in 70's, it seems to be the usual course of action for these situations.

Personally I favor just turning him over to a group of Afghani women. If you've read the Russian reports from the 80's about the horrors they would inflict on captured Russians, I think we can trust them to do the right thing with OBL.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:16 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Put him in a room

by Bill H

with 60 volumes of Hustler Magazine and play Doobie Brothers or Van Halen CDs all day long.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:21 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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This may actually happen! (more)

by Mike (E)

A scenario where he's holed up someplace, perhaps an asylum situation, and we have to send a PSYOP unit in with loudspeakers to drive him out...

mike

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 4:28 PM
from IP address 206.79.181.253

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Britney. nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 19, 2001, 11:30 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Manuel Noriega redux. nt

by OCD

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 3:00 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.115

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US BDU uniforms (more)

by James K

- in many ways this set of clothing is close to being a classic design, OK its not perfect but what is?
I recently sew some people wearing BDU's but made in British DPM material, a more effective pattern than Woodland, I have no idea who they were or where they were from and I was not about to go up and ask them as they were also wearing KEEP AWAY faces.
British soldiers can wear pretty much anything they want in the field, within reason and providing its DPM, and the Combat Soldier 2000 uniforms are good but not particualrly tough so where can I get some BDU's in DPM material?
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:51 AM
from IP address 62.7.15.235

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Give me the old 'slant pocket' poplins any day..more

by Ronbo

they dry out faster than those darned woodlands.Cheers-Ronbo.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 4:12 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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My other area of pointless lunatic semi-expertise...

by Bill

The M-1951 slant-pocket poplin fishtail parka, as worn by US troops in Korea, then as scooter-gear by UK mods. The original silk-and-mohair liner for the M-1951 is a brilliant piece of outerwear technology. I suspect, though, that making one of these up today would cost more than a complete Columbia Goretex job, because of materials. The silk is OD ripstop parachute grade, the mohair is (I think it's called) "faille", a sort of stiff, scratchy, big-loop terry that feels like a loofah. The silk is on the inside, when worn, with the faille pushing against the poplin shell and creating a full-body air-pocket. Amazingly warm and comfortable design.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 8:54 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Yep I know these (used to be a MOD) also (more)

by James K

the local surplus shop gets them on a regular basis, quality varies from naff to new and prices from about �20-45. The Canadian parker I mentioned issud to the Brits years ago is a better bet and much harder to get hold of.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 9:07 AM
from IP address 213.122.90.83

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Here's one without the liner, and in indifferent shape.

by Bill

Has the complete instructions text printed in the hood. (That's a good trick with the candle wax, by the way!)

I think the Canadian surplus parkas here all go up to the territories.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1034724139

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 9:15 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Thats nice butnot the one Imeant, the one I was (more)

by James K

thinking of must be a slightly newer version. It has wolf fur round the hood and slotted buttons. Warmest and most comfortable thing I have ever worn.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 10:02 AM
from IP address 62.7.112.16

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The big slotted buttons mean more recent Canadian kit. (more)

by Bill

The US M-1951 is so old-fashioned that the toggles on the hood are made of shoe-leather!

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 1:59 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Yeah! Cool stuff! Wore 'em in the Philippines

by Bill H

and Korea briefly. Sure were comfortable and looked downright cool.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:19 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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Just bought (more)

some BDU pants in the "rip-stop" material with the woodland's pattern. Figured they'd last longer walking the sides of the streams while trout fishing without taking too much of a beating.

Turns out I like 'em enough to wear in NYC . . . .

Richard

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 4:18 AM
from IP address 12.88.114.122

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BDU's..........

Hi James. I agree the US BDU's are great. We wore khaki while in NYC. It is the Public health uniform. We were doing some scrounging, being in an agency, allowed us access to other agencies and their surplus. Never saw anything but woodland and desert camo. Have you contacted the Popper manfg. company directly ? They make some of the BDU, some come in different colors such as blue, black, "federal cloth".

Some on merchants, www.cheaperthandirt.com; www.MajorSurplusNSurvival.com offer a nice range of inexpensive products. You might check there

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:15 PM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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Does U.S. Cavalry have a website?

by Bill H

nt

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:22 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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US Cav site

www.uscav.com

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 4:37 PM
from IP address 32.100.64.67

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Thanks David will try them.nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 10:40 AM
from IP address 213.1.71.122

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Bill H, can you send me an (more)

email, mine is playing upagain and whilst I can reply to an existing message I cant send an original text at the moment.
Thanks and regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:44 AM
from IP address 62.7.15.235

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Hi James. Send me your

by Bill H

home address and email address to diggerho@ite.net. I've got a couple of nifty items to send your way.

Sorry to hear the computer's acting up.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:16 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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A funny thing happened on the way to the local Starbucks (more)

by Bob

Hi MWRines,

Has this ever happened to anyone else? This morning, I went to get a morning cup of java... It was a perfectly sunny day, with a hint of chill in the air. The top was down and the Cult was blaring on the car's CD player. The next thing I knew, instead of taking the turn for the local Starbucks, my car took a left turn and headed straight for Topanga Canyon. It negotiated the windy turns of the Topanga Pass and didn't stop until it couldn't go any further. I ended up having my coffee and pastry at a nice bistro in Malibu before heading back over the pass..... What's the furthest you've ever gone for a cup of coffee?

Bob

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 10:13 PM
from IP address 4.35.218.34

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Canada...

Aloha Bob,

One early summer weekend morning about five years ago, I got up and as was my custom, decided to go out to get a cup. Well, about 3-1/2 hours later, I had passed the Canadian border and was on my way to Vancouver. Got my coffee at Starbucks on Robson Street. Headed back later that afternoon after a nice drive through Stanley Park (Tony, you really do live in one of the most beautiful cities in the world). Got through the border, and headed south, then remembered that the Bellingham Giants (at that time, the short-season single A minor league baseball team in the San Francisco Giants farm system) had a game that evening, so I got off at the right exit and headed for the ballpark. Picked up dinner (foot-long hot dog) and a seat in the first row behind home plate, and watched a great game (they won on a two-run home run in the bottom of the ninth inning with one out). Picked up another cup of coffee at the local shopping strip on my way to Interstate 5, and took the long drive home. Two hours later, got home around 11 pm.

A heck of a drive for coffee!

Mahalo,

andy

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 11:21 PM
from IP address 63.36.222.201

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Bellingham Giants? Shouldn't they really have been ...

by OCD

the Whatcom Giants?

Cheers,

OCD

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:41 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.168

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...or the Whatcom Mariners (Ken Griffrey Jr. played there...

....when they were a Mariner farm club).

Mahalo,

andy

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 12:53 PM
from IP address 205.173.95.38

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Enjoy the coffee & cool cruising

by CJ

BTW: Nice'Vette ; I've got the '63 Stingray not the split windows , 4 speed man in river red !
A real muscle car.

Best

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 12:06 AM
from IP address 172.152.251.26

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Ihave a nice Vauxhall Nova, also red, want to race? LOL nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:10 AM
from IP address 62.7.15.235

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In the USA, the Chevy Nova is this big muscle car (more)

by Bob

Hi James,

I looked up Vauxhall Nova on the internet and was surprised to see a small compact looking car. I had imagined this big US style Chevy:

Best,

Bob

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:08 PM
from IP address 4.35.218.34

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No. Vauxhall Nova is small with (more)

by James K

a 1.2L engine. quite nippy about town but no muscle car. Used to have a Daimler (Jaguar) Sovereign V12 that was on the muscular side though, in a very refined and gentlemanly way.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 12:36 AM
from IP address 194.66.72.204

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Don't underestimate the power of the NOVA>>>>>

by CJ

No offense to Bob , but the small swift Nova 2 litres
GTE or GTI version do look like a family subcompact hatch ...This is a high performance Rally car and Gymkana that can deliver more than 150 BHP and a cruising speed well over 200Km , 0 to 60 possibly in less than 6 seconds , I think there could be a turbo
version with even higher performance ; I think that Bono from U2 has an earlier version a cult car and his 1st that he keeps at his folks in Ireland ; This little car is serious and I did take it seriously when James said he'll take me on >:-) as it's faster than both our 'Vette and will handle better in meandering roads with a firm road grip that the 'Vette will spin off the road and does not rattle at high speeding cruise like the Chevy , you may have visualized the 2nd generation Chevy Nova with a Hurst shifter and a high gear ratio etc.. I personally experienced drag racing in the States and rallies circuits in treacherous mountain terrain in Europe where there is no room for any Yank car , piloted a modified 2002 tii and a 1275 Cooper S ; I had a '69 'vette with side pipes 4 gears manual in California that I drove cross country from the East as only automatic 'vette were available out west and in some part of Europe automatic gears cars are for girls and the feminines , no joke >:-)
The only auto Vette I ever owned I purchased brand new
in 1976 for just under $10,000 .
All the way USA apple pie and Chevrolet or something
to that effect !
Champagne taste!

HAPPY & SAFE MOTORING TO ALL.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 9:22 PM
from IP address 172.162.0.203

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Virginia (long way from Bournemouth) (more)

by James K

some years ago I was getting sort of homesick for all things American, the food, place the people and the coffie. Took Mandy and myself of to Virginia, stayed in Williamsburg but moved around.
Had the same feeling for a long while now, being at university with three kids meant that it was not possible (one very short execise really didnt do the job) but perhaps next year I can get my "American fix". Long way to go for coffie though.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 2:07 AM
from IP address 62.7.15.235

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James just follow the road signs . LOL

by CJ

Regards

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:02 AM
from IP address 172.173.253.71

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My Opel GT and a frappacino will do for now.LOL<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 4:16 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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Opel GT, the baby Vette with roll-away lights! {nt}

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 10:38 AM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Mine goes 0-60(in about an hour).LOL<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 12:24 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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Bob, next time

by Bill H

Drive up 101 to Ventura and stop in and have breakfast with our daughter and her husband. They would love to take you out to Java Jungle for a Chunky Monkey (woaaaa--too good and full of jitters espresso style).

Furthest I went for a cup of coffee was five feet. I was deployed to an Italian base at Vicenza, Italy, as the Combined Air Operations Center historian overseeing the no-fly zone above the Balkans. We were in a facility surrounded by a fence. My window sat two feet from the fence. Three feet on the other side of the fence sat the Italian Air Force cappucino bar. The bar was operated by conscripts and their sole duty was to make lattes, cappucinos, and espressos for the staff. It was great! Since we had all NATO members there plus a few stray cats and dogs (Russians, Hungarians, etc.) we sat around, drank ourselves into the jitters, and swapped war stories. I worked in an office with two Brits (RAF) and two Americans and you should have seen the fireworks on July 4th. Talk about some good-natured ribbing by the Brits. We colonists had a great time with 'em.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:33 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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More on Infinity type LED lights

by Ned

As James noted below the Infinity task light (about $19) is an incredible piece of equipment and an instant "standard" item. I have the green and red versions and one or the other is with me wherever I go.

I thought I would never need another light like the infinity, until the Arc LS (about $22) came along. This is a smaller and brighter version of the same basic desing. ARC took the infinity concept in a different direction. They gave up a chunk of battery life for greater brightness.

The ARC LS is shorter (2.7" long vs 3.2 " for the Infinity) and smaller in diameter. It uses a single AAA battery in place of the AA in the Infinity. The ARC is much brigher (comparing red to red), but it burns for only about 6 hours on a single battery (compared with a real world 50+ hours with the Infinity). A major innovation with the ARC is a special "step-up" power circuit that keeps the brightness more stable as the battery burns down. Even though the Infinity burns much longer the beam dims more noticeably as the battery runs down. The ARC will give you 5 hours of bright light before it starts to dim significantly.

They are both waterproof although the Infinity is rated to 10 feet and the ARC to 3 feet. Both are rugged and should take a lot of abuse, although I must tell you that I had to return eearlier versions of both lights with serious defects. The newer versions are much improved and tougher.

I think both lights have a niche. The brighter ARC is a better task light if you need the extra candlepwoer and don't care so much about battery life. Five hours is an excellent batery life, don't get me wrong, but it's pale compared to the Infinity's. I use a red ARC LS as a rugged key chain light (tougher than a photon and comparably bight.

The Infinity is the ultimate carry-it-and-forget-it light. With that phenomenal battery life it is the last word in back-up lights.

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 8:16 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Would horseback riding be part of special ops training?

by Bill

You've all seen the striking (if tiny and blurred) image of what are supposedly US special ops men on horseback in Afghanistan. Captures the imagination, somehow.

Would they have had riding as part of training, or...?

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 12:23 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Dont know about the US but (more)

by James K

- an integralpart of the UK 16 Air assault Brigade and 3 Commando Brigade are squadrons from the Household Cavalry Regt, whose members will have rotated through the HC Mounted Regt and be very proficient horsemen.
The SAS has one Squadron, "G" which recruits from the Brigade of Guards and members of the Household Cavalry Regiment account for a large proportion of the Squadron. In addition SF, British and US, units tend to have an unusual mix of abilities within its members some from the military and others brought in from civillian life.
During the last few years some British cavalry units based in Bosnia put their tanks aside and conducted horse patrols.
Whilst this does not fully answer your question I think that operating on horseback is well within the ability of an SF unit. I have also seen, on TV, members of the Aussie SAS taking part in a Camel race!
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 1:00 PM
from IP address 62.7.64.3

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Well, they could be Texans!! nt

1

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 1:34 PM
from IP address 207.243.107.45

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Horses and Mules

by Bill H

Has anyone seen the most recent "Forgotten War" exhibit at Duxford? Martin Boswell, a friend and one of the collections managers, did a wonderful job of portraying how the British and other forces won the war in Burma: sheer will, sweat, and the mule. Merrill's marauders fought the same way.

Just goes to show you that regardless of technological developments, good ol' horsepower still does the job. Nope, wouldn't surprise me to see hay and oats are part of today's logistical needs.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 4:25 PM
from IP address 202.123.134.100

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In a word, "no." With all the armored vehicles (more)

by Richard

Hi Bill:

over there, why go by horse when you have an air conditioned tank, or an air conditioned Humvee?

Best,

Richard

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 4:41 PM
from IP address 12.88.88.157

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Lack of road, particularly in the mountains. Think (more)

by Bill

southern Arizona for a local equivalent. Well, not so much "road" as relatively flat places. Lots of terrain, and trails, where tanks and Humvees just can't go, and of course that's where your enemy will go if he figures you're following in a tank or Humvee. Interview with a retired Soviet officer who'd trained their special forces for Afghanistan: said much of the landscape is such that, aside from air support, you're reduced to fighting a 19th-century war.

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 5:18 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Okay, I can see helicopters, but not horses <nt>

by Richard

/

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 6:29 PM
from IP address 12.88.80.74

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Helo's not very effective in the mountains (more)

by James K

they do get around but there are operating problems not the least of which are the ranges involved, the FARP (points were in Pakistan). Also, from what I understand, there were several different mission types going on in different places. Large well supported ops (as seen on TV), but also small CSAR teams, forward observers, rear link sigs dets etc just lying in wait in case they were needed, some missions probably did involve small groups operating with local forces, living and working with them and moving as they do.
I can well believe that some groups did most of their movment on foot or by pony.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 1:41 AM
from IP address 62.7.15.235

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Helo problems in the Hindu Kush ...

by OCD

Hi guys -

The helicopter is a remarkable tool. It provides mobility to ground forces (really redefined what airmoblie meant), and can provide very effective close in artillery support, in effect. It literally redefines, and then occupies, the high ground.

Unless you are in a range of very high mountains such as the Hindu Kush.

Now you get into the spot where terrain elevations are higher than the operating ceiling of many helicopters. The chopper no longer holds the high ground. The mujaheddin were known to fire shoulder missiles down on Soviet helicopters.

This forces a rethinking of helicopter tactics in high mountains.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:35 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.168

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Well Back When -

by Randy N.

According to the manual ... "It is the Cavalry's duty to explore and reconnoitre; to suprise the enemy by charges and flank movements; and to pursue it when it is defeated" ... seems like this type of engagement calls for the "Cavalry".. - A net length of a Cavalry Regiment in column of fours was 2,134 yards (not including it's extra's)... Imagine a Cavalry Regiment bearing down on the bad guys... Maybe, just maybe, we haven't forgot something that works... Like unconventional warfare = what works ... what doesn't
Best Regards to all ..

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 5:24 PM
from IP address 63.180.58.229

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Don't forget the mighty bicycle (more)

by Ned

Switzerland still has a 3000 man bicycle brigade and in Northern Norway (above Arctic Circle) border patrol troops still use bikes.

I am told US Military owns some cool OD folding mountainbikes. Tricked out with the latest components. There were some for sale by the maker a year or so ago.

That seems a better solution for places an HumVee can't go.

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 8:33 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Or, for urban warfare, the swift and silent skateboard! :-) nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 9:53 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Try........

by CJ

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 9:38 PM
from IP address 172.162.0.203

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Band of Brothers (even, more)

by James K

Wow! bet you thought I was going to say something awful (again).
Several things strike me about this programme. Firstly its the way in which you get used to a major character, and they get shot, blown up or in one sad and entirely understandable case simply have enough. This is just like real war, good men get killed often without reason not because they are lacking in any way simply because they are out of time.
Another is the way that the characters change, the result of stress, loss, sheer mental and emotional exhuastion.
Then there are the men themselves, they didnt take part in 6 month tours like modern soldiers, for them it was seemingly endless total warfare, more intense than anything we today have experienced (with the possible exception of the Falklands or Vietnam, but for much longer periods) I doubt that I would have the strength of character to do what they and so many others did.
Regards James K
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 11:30 AM
from IP address 213.123.10.160

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Good point James

by Bill H

They went to war knowing they were in for the duration plus six months.

I had a meeting with four WW II vets on Thursday morning. Two were Marines and two were Navy Sea Bees who landed on Tinian and Saipan. One guy, who was still as fit, bright and witty as he was in 1943, was 16 when he was driving a bulldozer on Tinian constructing roads and runways for the Army Air Corps. He turned 17 after a few months on the island and remembers it vividly because the Japanese were still sniping at him. He later turned 18 four months before his discharge. He returned to high school with eight other classmates, two of whom were missing limbs and graduated. He then used his GI bill to attend college. He told me that they simply tightened their belts and pressed on regardless of their situation. I was in awe of their resolve.

Similarly, in an oral history interview with a British WW I veteran of The Somme, he told me that many of the soldiers fought for each other as comrades in arms. They knew their was a greater goal but it had been blurred as the years wore on. In some cases, they had more afinity with the Germans across the trenches than they did their own leaders. I seemed to have lost him, however, when I asked him to describe the conditions of life in the trenches. Up to that point, he was able to talk freely. Then, I saw the distant look in his eyes as he retreated to some part of his mind that he had locked away forever. He looked at me and said, "No, young man, I will not do that. There are some things you wish to remember, others you do not. No, I choose not to talk about the trenches. Too many of my mates are still buried in fragments along the Somme." He was 85 at the time. I think I learned more in that 30-minute session than anything my college professors combined could ever have taught me about the so-called end of the 19th Century. God bless those guys.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 4:19 PM
from IP address 202.123.134.100

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It was nice to see'star power'didn't guarentee servivability!<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 4:19 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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Soldiers kit (more)

by James K

At different times and in different places a piece of kit surfaces that becomes a classic, it sets the standard and becomes an essential piece of soldiers kit that knows no, or at least few, national bounderies.

The Norge shirt, first adopted by Royal Marines operating in Norway which found its way onto the backs of every British serviceman and is now copied by Germany, France, USA and just about everywhere else.

The Silva compass from Sweden, so simple that more expensive Prismatic (UK) and Lensatic (USA) compasses remain in stores unloved and unwanted.

The Leatherman tool from the USA which has been copied by so many other other companies, SOG etc but remains essentially unchanged and has by and large replaced the Swiss Army Knife.

There is also the Mag Lite, a design classic copied and used allover the world. But this at least has been replaced, in my book, by the small LED flashlights from Bob. If any piece of kit is a true classic then it is this, small, light in weight and exceptionally bright they have become an "essential" right up there with the Norge shirt, Leatherman and Silva compass.

Any other desogn classics out there I have not yet come accross.

Regards James K

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 6:47 AM
from IP address 62.7.49.198

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James, I totally agree about the LED light...

I bought both a white one and a red one from Bob, and they've come in very handy since I've been in Bosnia. I've got a Surefire 6P with me also, and have hardly used that at all.

I can think of one other item to add to your list of indispensable kit, though it's kind of generic: Gore-tex. Between parkas, trousers, and boots, it's been a God-send.

Where could I take a look at a Silva compass? I've got an old Stocker & Yale lensatic that could stand replacement.

Regards,

Jim

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 7:46 AM
from IP address 136.217.0.198

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I remember the Silva from ...

... my days as a scout.

http://www.silva.se/

http://www.silva.se/outdoor/products/comp_start.htm

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 8:24 AM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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You are right about Gore Tex, Jim. I remember many years ago (more)

by James K

spending days and even weeks soaked to the skin because the old PU waterproofs were a waste of space. I used to think, along wiht others, that waterproofs were girlie and that real men stayed wet. Now I never go on exercise without them!
Martin posted a link to the silva compass, they do them in Mills as well as Degrees.
Where are you in Bosnia are you and who are you with (if you dont mind my asking)? I once spent a happy six months in Bosanski Petrovich, some more time in Sanski Mosk and a whole day in Split!
Regards James K
PS enjoy the tour and stay safe.

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 11:08 AM
from IP address 213.123.10.160

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How about GPS?

by Ned

Started by us Yanks. Garmin or Magellan, you gotta have one.

Ned

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 9:48 AM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Shiny things? No doesnt make my list of "Got to have" (more)

by James K

that is what maps and compasses are for! The GPS is a good bit of kit, but like mobile phones they dont work everywhere, nor are they totally reliable. Some people like them though.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 11:12 AM
from IP address 213.123.10.160

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Suggestion: water bottle with two micron ceramic carbon filter...

by SideB

capable of filtering out bugs, viruses and chemicals from any water source. Saw one yesterday the same size as a 750ml plastic coke bottle which can be refilled 700 times before the filter needs changing. Would have bought it 'cept I have trouble counting that high....
What do you think?
Simon

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 1:16 PM
from IP address 152.163.204.84

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Have heard that these work -- a good sign! nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 2:07 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Yes!!!

by Bill H

Good one Simon. Keeps cooties out of one's colon race track.

Bill H

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 4:05 PM
from IP address 202.123.134.100

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In certain places yes (more)

by James K

ensuring a good water supply is the most basic essential. There are variations on this filter including special drinking straws. Funny you mention this as its one piece of kit I dont have and should.
Next item on my christmas list.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 1:48 AM
from IP address 62.7.15.235

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Jungle boots

by Bill H

Jungle boots are quite comfortable. Well, unless you're walking in snow. I've worn them in every hot and humid area I can think of and they seem to be one of the most adaptable bit of gear I've come across. Then there's the Danner and Matterhorn boots for cold temperatures.

One of the greatest events to occur in recent U.S. mil history was allowing members to wear black boots regardless of the manufacturer. It really blossomed during the Gulf War. People started flocking to the mail order catalogues.

However, James, in my opinion, the British rations (curry, etc.) are some of the most brilliant inventions in mil history. While we were eating MREs, you guys were having gourmet. Made me look at ending my U.S. citizenship just to join the RAF and eat well!

Along that line, mandatory piece of kit: Granola bars...

Bill H

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 4:04 PM
from IP address 202.123.134.100

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Boots and rations (more)

by James K

Hi Bill H, yes US jungle boots get my vote, not sure about Matterhorns as I was wearing them recently when I hurt my foot, they have an almost total lack of ankle support!
British reations are quite good, the old tinned ones were great but heavy, the Boil in the Bag probably the best I have come accross but the new "ultra cheap" Training Ration Pack GP is a disgrace, especially since its been finding its way onto operations (not what it was intended for).
Have you tried German rats? they are....er interesting. As for the US MRE probably the most disgusting thing I have tasted, once though a long time ago (about twenty years) I was given US tinned rations which apart from a very strange cheese in a can were quite nice.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 1:56 AM
from IP address 62.7.15.235

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MREs=Meals Rejected by Ethiopians. nt

by OCD

nt

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:26 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.168

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US tinned rations were C -rations. more...

Each box had either canned cheese or peanut butter,which was very oily and good with thick crackers that came with both. Some of the entrees were very good, especially the roast pork. Lima beans and ham was by far the least favorite. You could always trade any of them except the lima beans and ham.

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 10:10 AM
from IP address 64.12.106.53

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Thats the ones,I liked them (more)

by James K

- certainly better than the later, rather orrid, MRE.
Rations vary according to nation, did you know that the old Fench 1950's rations had one menu for christians another for muslims, the difference was that muslim rations had no toilet paper!
Argentine rations differed according to rank, officers got a small bottle of spirits, NCO's didnt and soldiers didnt get sweets.
German rations are a veritable feast but created according to some rather unusual tastes. Danish ones are good as are the dehydrated Norge ration. Aussie ration packs are good but based on the US style individual meal rather than 24 hours worth of food as we Brits use.
I like our 24 hour Boil in the Bag rats and knowing how everyone else goes for them they are probably about the best, lots of goodies, Oatmeal blocks, treacle pudding and burgers, bacon and beans being my favorites. But the cost has led to their partial relacement by trained rats, er sorry training rats which are naff a tin of Spam and a packet of noodles and no decent brew kit either.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 10:29 AM
from IP address 62.7.112.16

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Matterhorns

by Philip

Very badly sprained my ankle last month while wearing a pair of Matterhorns, on a run with the RLC (never heard the end of that one!) The boots are so comfortable though and completely waterproof fantastic, might have to see if I can blag some of the full leather ones from somewhere.

Anybody know how you get Matterhorns resoled in the UK?

Canadian rations are great. 24 hours comes as 3 seperate packages one for breakfast etc. Each package seems to be about the size of one of our 24 hr rat packs. They are huge, and what is more amazing is that the Canadians always manage to finish them, I never could.

Posted on Nov 20, 2001, 2:42 AM
from IP address 195.195.42.108

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And I Have Incontrovertible Proof That the Moon "Landing" was "filmed" in Arizon

by Bill

America's war against Afghanistan is "a bigger terrorist act than what
happened on September 11," renowned US intellectual dissenter Noam Chomsky
said here [Chennal, India] in an address. "Like a mafia leader," the US
chose Afghanistan and struck at that country because it could not strike
back, he said.... The renowned linguist not only debunked American
militarism but also attacked several popular capitalist premises such as
"liberalization," "services" and the definition of "terrorism" in the
post-September 11 context, saying that even "democracy" meant a "private
power concentration." The "power of propaganda is such that even the victims
begin to use the same language," said one of the most bitter critics of U.S.
policies. "There is no truth to the story of a boom in the American
economy," he held.

(Pakistan News, 11/16)

This message has been edited by billmwr from IP address 24.80.4.208 on Nov 16, 2001 3:25 PM
This message has been edited by billmwr from IP address 24.80.4.208 on Nov 16, 2001 3:24 PM

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 3:21 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Noam Chomsky ...

by OCD

has been pissing me off for decades.

Yet the sun still rises in the east every morning and I do just fine despite him.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 5:55 PM
from IP address 64.24.246.69

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He's the guy who referred to Pol Pot as an agrarian reformer.

nt

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 6:16 PM
from IP address 24.4.252.223

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Noam Chomsky is an ass . . . (more)

and his linguistic contributions were his 15 minutes of fame many, many, many years ago. Today he is more like Columbia Univ.'s Herb Terrace's signing monkey, "Nim Chimpsky."

Ignore the jerk.

Richard

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 6:34 PM
from IP address 12.88.118.71

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A DIFFERENT CONSTITUENCY OF OUR LISTENERS HAVE INSISTED WE NO LONGER REFERTO THE "HOLOCAUST&quo

by Bill

Galloping Chomsky-ism in the UK:

The BBC has announced that it is joining Reuters in refusing to describe the
Sept. 11 atrocities as "terrorism": "However appalling and disgusting it
was, there will nevertheless be a constituency of our listeners who don't
regard it as terrorism," says Mark Damazer, the BBC's deputy director of
news. "Describing it as such could downgrade our status as an impartial and
independent broadcaster." (BBC.com, 11/15)

But Chomsky is as nothing, when it comes to pissing me, compared to the guy in my next post...

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 8:15 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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It Is Definitive That I Knew You Wanted It, Ma Cherie

by Bill

"That we dreamed of this event, that everyone without exception dreamed of
it, because no one can fail to dream of the destruction of any power become
so hegemonic - that is unacceptable for the Western moral conscience. And
yet it's a fact, which can be measured by the pathetic violence of all the
discourses that want to cover it up. To put it in the most extreme terms,
they did it, but we wanted it." (Jean Baudrillard, 11/12; orig. published in
Le Monde)

This guy... This guy takes the f**king cake. Don't even get me started...

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 8:21 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Well, I really thought Noam and Jean would have known better (more)

I, for one, respected both at some time in my life, and I'm more than shocked. You're really sure Baudrillard actually said that? Mental.

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 8:26 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.205

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Absolutely. This guy has been the single worst thing (more)

by Bill

to have happened to Western thought in my lifetime, and I've held him (and the horse he rode in on) in complete and utter contempt for a good twenty years now. There is nothing in the world, still standing, that is quite so full of it as "Theory". but like I said, don't get me started.

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 8:35 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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It's like mentioning the IRA to James Kellard... :-) nt

by Bill

This message has been edited by billmwr from IP address 24.80.4.208 on Nov 16, 2001 11:02 PM

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 8:49 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Bill, I have never quite found a thread so difficult to folow as this (more)

by James K

so I read it and re-read it. So let me see if I have t right, OK? A chap, whom I have never heard of but clearly has a distorted view of reality from inside his padded cell, describes the USA as gangsters because they are picking of Afganistan, right? and said that they are only doing it because the Taliban cant hit back, despite the fact that the USA was the victim.

The man clearly knows more than I because silly old me always thought Pol Pot was a murdering bastard rather than an agrairian reformer! just shows what a waste of time a history degree really is.

To top this off the well know left wing, communist, feminist, gay rights supporters of the BBC are refusing to call the Terrorist attacks on America Terrorist attacks because that might upset those who support acts of terrorism living in the UK and, not unnaturally, reasonable people find this a little disturbing.

You find the mention of this group of strange individuals, who demonstrate conclusively that alternative dimesions really do exist, just a little disturbing, just as I do with the mention of the IRA, have I got it about right?

This thread has given me a headache, can no longer follow logical thought process......

Regards James K

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 1:04 AM
from IP address 213.123.19.18

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Sorry, James! I feel guilty for having mentioned this (more)

by Bill

as there's no need to, here. Just because a school of French philosophy gets badly up my nose. Hugely influential in American academia and in my opinion largely a load of balls. People who have no reason to be aware of this stuff are fortunate indeed, and should be allowed to enjoy it!

Henceforth, on my OT list here (as it should be in person too, because I tend to froth if it comes up).

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 8:58 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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You froth; I'll foam. I thought that this ...

by OCD

was our place for the OT stuff.

I confuse easily, I guess.

Cheers,

OCD

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 10:37 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.49

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I was just feeling guilty for having exposed James, in what i took to be his innocence, (more)

by Bill

to the horror of it all, but now I see he's exposed to it anyway. It isn't even the overt political manifestations of this stuff, as annoying as those can be, that bothers me most, but a nagging and deepseated conviction that the underlying philosophical basis is a tissue of sheerest horseshit.

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 11:28 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Bill, you have a real way with words. nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 11:49 AM
from IP address 213.123.10.160

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Dont worry Bill, just saw my name, read your post and (more)

by James K

got confused until I had read the whole thread. Actually I think you are right, this chap (I dont want to know more about him he sounds like a tosser) would probably give me the same feeling as Gerry .A and his firm of thugs.
Regards James K
Feel free to use my name anytime (so long as its not signing cheques!)

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 11:16 AM
from IP address 213.123.10.160

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Baudrillard was brilliant on 'signs and signification'/postmodern 'simulation' etc. (more)

I didn't mind that horse at all, but then began to come out with ideas like the Gulf War didn't exist. What is it with these linguists when they turn to politics?

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 8:44 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.205

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Well, without really getting into it (which always depresses me...

by Bill

and makes me angry) that stuff was just *fashion*, and it went down gangbusters in academia because if you knew the cant you could Lego whole sentences that older academics couldn't begin to understand, non-stop. You could cop major Postmodern attitude, and you didn't have to be smarter than the next guy to do it. In fact it probably helped if you weren't.

They've both been spouting this same stuff, politically, all along, and for some reason I could never ignore the fact that they were doing it, so I started to question the ideas that had made them famous in the first place, and decided that it was all just fashionable bullshit and always had been. And all I can say about that is that it's a very good thing I'm not an academic, otherwise my career would've been in deep poop indeed.

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 9:04 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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I think these people are professional contrarians....

by Alan N.

They seem to think they were created to

1. Find out where the popular compass is pointing

2. Come up with some wild and "radical" idea to go 180.

3. But believe the rest of the world is too stupid anyway to be receptive to their intellectual gifts.

Well, whether a deliberate plan in life, or more likely something they've just found they could "settle into," folks like this have made a living out of pissing people off. The minute they stop being a pain in the ass, then they're off the map, and no one cares. A strange case of it being good for people to think you're pain in the ass. Keeps you in business, somehow.

Gee, I guess that was harsh, surprised myself! Now I got me started too!

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 9:30 PM
from IP address 66.32.34.68

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"Everything you've ever believed is wrong."

by Bill

Actually, Alan, you're just far enough away from it to be able to have more perspective than I do, so your take on them is simpler, and clearer, and, I think, right on.

That's what I was trying to get at by saying it was about "copping attitude". The real appeal of this stuff is that it provides the "wearer" a touch of dashing contrarian attitude.

I had actually entertained hope, in the immediate wake of 9-11, that this stuff would shortly be seen to be dead for good -- as indeed various writers did declare it, then, in those "death of irony" pieces. But no. O well, maybe with time.

The thing that'll do it in eventually, I think, is that it actually isn't any good for anything but copping attitude and getting tenure.

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 9:46 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Oohs, aahhs, and the naked king....

The real appeal of this stuff is that it provides the "wearer" a touch of dashing contrarian attitude.

Yeah... like the Emporer and his clothes, everyone tends to ooh and ahh at these "wearers." Thinking if they don't, they will be seen as unsophisticated clods of dirt who just don't "get it."

Well, call me a clod, but it's good to know there are others, too, who see the Emporer in all his nekkidness!

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 11:26 AM
from IP address 66.32.37.28

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Chomsky and his ilk hide behind ...

by OCD

academic tenure.

It is the sinecure that provides them a safe harbor; a core income and an inviolable parapet from behind which they may lob whatever frag grenades they care without fear of retribution.

When I was younger and a university student, I firmly believed - and still do - that a university should be a place where thoughts could be expressed freely and debated openly. Tenure, in theory, should support that view.

Well, at many leading universities today, including my alma mater, the faculties are dominated by the people who were the leftist student radicals of my student years. They have imposed a PC culture on the campus, and on a wide range of issues they shout down anyone who raises a dissenting view. So much for academic freedom of expression and the open debate of competing ideas.

Though in the wake of 9-11, the student bodies of the schools seem to be getting it; perhaps they will push back on the faculties. One can hope.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 3:53 AM
from IP address 64.24.246.65

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Over the last two years that has happened at my University (more)

by James K

Dr Alisair Duke, one of the great historians and an expert on Early Modern Dutch history, Prof Mark Stoyle the leading expert on the English Civil War and Prof Colin Platt an expert on the Black Death have been forced out and their courses cut in favour of femail mostly European lecturers who offer such courses as the "Expanding role of Feminist thought in France during the revoloutanary period" and "making men redundant: the role and influence of lesbianism in modern industrialised society".
In short the whole place has been taken over by lefties, there are still some good courses on offer but historical objectivity has been overtaken by PC rubbish.
The officer Training Corps has been banned from recruiting at the Freshers fair, because it upset the sensibilities of both the Gay and Lesbian league and the Black and Asian student fellowship.
I loved University, it has been the best ime of my life, but that was due in part to the freedom of thought and exchange of views and ideas. University for this years intake will be like living in a totalitarian regieme.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 4:45 AM
from IP address 213.1.66.169

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Ditto

by Bill H

Good point OCD

What goes around, comes around. It's interesting to note that the students today are not quite the radicals that their professors were. Many came from priveleged families while others were taking the anti-authority kick to a new level. Seems that they are now reaping what they've sown. And, yes, they are extremely bitter if someone disagrees with them. Is it academia or insecurity? I'm leaning toward the latter, especially when I deal with idiots in Greenpeace, Sierra Club, and others who have used their interpretation of the law to ensure they have playgrounds for themselves, as pitiful as it sounds. Personally, I think John Muir would kick some self-absorbed a** if he knew what was going on in our national parks.

The great thing about a democracy is that even the idiots can make their voice heard. But it's our right to cast it off as drivel, and that's exactly what many of my mid-70s college buds believe as well. Makes great reading though! Just like Bugs Bunny comics.

Noam Chomsky? Left wing evolutionary. You'll notice I didn't say "revolutionary." His mind is still somewhere between Cro Mangon (sorry, didn't mean to offend our prehistoric bretheren) and Jane Fonda.

Great comment!
Bill H

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 3:55 PM
from IP address 202.123.134.100

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Bash no more, here's a nice horological item for Baudrillard:

A Bolshevik backwards moving clock, (so he can get back to his senses):

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 4:37 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.205

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Yes, it's a watch, but remember, nothing is what it seems (more)

and the sign outshone the object, so even though you knew it was a watch, your mind said it was a clock because the signifier.. oh, you know what I mean.

Posted on Nov 17, 2001, 7:06 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.205

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Everything Has Happened Exactly As We Predicted, Except That It Didn't

by Bill

"The war in Afghanistan, the one we should never have declared, has run into
trouble. Just a few weeks into it and it's obvious that the United States is
fighting blind. The enemy is unknown, and the enemy's country is terra
incognita...We are mapless, we are lost, and we are distracted by gusts of
wishful thinking. That our high command could believe the Afghani peasantry
or even the Taliban would change sides after a few weeks of bombing!"

(Nicholas Von Hoffman, NY Observer, 11/14)

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 3:20 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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British Perception of PM Blair??

by N Joe

Since 9-11-2001, the British, lead by PM Blair have stood shoulder to shoulder with us - establishing rock solid support, soliciting support overseas and then deploying the best of their best. No other nation have stepped forward so quickly to place their assets in harms way. In essence, when it hits the fan, the Brits have been a stand-up bunch.

But the Londoner on the street and elsewhere seem to have a negative comment or two about PM Blair. Is it more to do with the economy, immigration and trade?

If any of our UK colleagues can shed some light, I would appreciate it.

Best regards,
N Joe
California

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 9:25 AM
from IP address 148.165.83.143

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No....

by SideB

the economy is about as healthy as might be expected given the world situation.
There is some unease that he has happily stuck his head so far over the parapet that he's almost inviting retaliation from OBL as America's bulldog. A lot of people in London are quite worried about it - it wouldn't take a very big nuclear bomb to kill a lot of people.
Otherwise he has chameleon-like qualities which means he tries to be all things to all men. In the Daily Telegraph he's photographed sipping tea from a bone chine cup. In the Daily Mirror it's an effing great mug with the spoon still in it. His voice changes too. No one is quite sure which is the real Tony Blair.
His own Labour (leftwing) Party is also unsure. He certainly isn't any kind of socialist.
Personally I think he's doing a good job.
Simon

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 9:41 AM
from IP address 205.188.197.189

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Thanks for the complement (more)

by James K

But let me start by saying we are led by the Crown not the PM. Blair has gone up in my estimations but he still strikes me as being fake goods. He is well known for talking a good talk and making you feel that he is one of the lads, but the reality is that he is just a politician, he will do waht is good for his party and what is good for him.
If he was sincere he would ask the CGS what needs to be done, get Queenie's permission and send us all over!
In other respects TB is no beter or worse than many inept and dishonest members of his profession and to amke things worse he is Pro Europe. He doesnt get my vote, but then none of them have since Maggie.
Ian Duncan smith is an ex Guards rupert so worth looking into before the next election, but this is not the place for politics and I have said enough.
Regards James K
PS We will always stand with you, not behind like some you could mention.

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 10:28 AM
from IP address 213.123.23.9

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Is this peace? (more)

by James K

First there was Sinn Fein, we fought them for years and years and when they couldnt get what they wanted they became a political body and therefore legitimate.
However no one listened to them so the Provisional IRA was formed, same people, same aims just returned to using guns.

They didnt get what they wanted and to help Sinn Fien achieve their political aims (which was of course a totally seperate organiziation(NOT) they turned their backs on violence and became good chaps (we know this because President Clinton and Sen Kennedy told us).

But still no one listened and the "Real" IRA was formed, but we have to believe that they are nothing to do with Sinn Fein because that Gerry Adams is such a nice chap and very popular in Washington, even more so in cities with high Irish American populations.

But then the "continuity" IRA was formed, more killings, more bombs, more viloence but this must be a misunderstanding on our part because the peace process is underway and that nice Mr Adams said the guns "had been put out of reach".

This week a bomb was planted in Birmingham, by an Irish Republican Group, not of course those nice gentlemen in Sinn Fein, the IRA, Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA, Real IRA or even my Aunt Fanny all of whom reject violence.

Perhaps, perish the thought, the Republicans are making promises with their fingers crossed behind their backs? Or even talking a load of bollocks and playing us for fools.

I dont think we should give them an inch, because the peace process is just a smoke screen.

Interested in a Trans Atlantic opinion on whats going on.

Regards James K

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 11:50 PM
from IP address 62.7.121.244

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Absolutely James! I'm afraid many of the...more

by Ronbo

ones dancing in the streets to(Allah forbid)music and having their beards shaved for the camera are probably Taliban themselves.I mean think about it-take out the WTC and have your whole damned country rebuilt complete with a new Democratic(read American funded)society.I don't know,maybe I'm just to damned cynical.But I kinda doubt we,meaning the politicians, learned anything with the TET offensive where the only ones wearing uniforms and dying by the rules were us.Cheers-Ronbo.

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 2:21 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Hard to say, the one thing I do know about the IRA ...

... is that they don't easily change their minds. It would be nice, but I wouldn't place money on it. So many factions...

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 12:32 PM
from IP address 142.104.250.115

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Royal marine Command, established the UK/FOB in Afganistan last night (more)

by James K

prior to this our boys had been operating in small groups from the hills. Things are changing.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 11:18 PM
from IP address 62.7.75.191

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Apparently they are from 45 Commando, mountain and artic warfare (more)

by James K

specialists, based in Arbroath Scotland.

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 11:30 PM
from IP address 62.7.75.191

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Papers today say the troops at Bagram are 100 members of the SBS....

by SideB

from Poole. You can't get much further from water than central Afghanistan but they are also trained in deployment by helicopter and I guess the SAS are fully committed if the MoD insists on using special forces to prepare the ground the way for further deployments.

Simon

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 2:15 AM
from IP address 205.188.197.48

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That would be clever SBS is only 180 strong (more)

by James K

of which some 60 or so are non deployable ie involved in training,research and development, protection duties and other work. A squadron is Anti terrorist and Counter Revoloutionary Warfare tasked and cant be deployed outside the UK! Some are sick, others injured some on courses and one or two on leave (possibly). I doubt that SB could get 100 men together at once for deployment unless they used the RMR Squadron, possible though.
The SB are in Afganistan (as have the SAS and others) and have been for a long time (a few days after WTC). But this 100 man deployment is probably a mix of 45 Commando recce troop, some members of the M&AW Cadre and SBS.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 10:20 AM
from IP address 213.123.23.9

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Any news from the guy who wrote about "Cheese-eating Surrender Monkeys?" <nt>

/

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 6:55 PM
from IP address 12.88.86.39

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That was back pre-9/11, wasn't it? Way back, it feels like. (more)

by Bill

Can't imagine what he'd be on about now, what with the new world order and all. Come to think of it, I wasn't too sure what he was on about back then.

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 7:47 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Agreed. But now he must have amended his manifesto, no?

>

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 12:17 AM
from IP address 12.88.84.80

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It turns out that "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" (more)

by Bill

is from The Simpsons (see link), so our man was not so colorfully original in his oddeness.

http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg040601.shtml

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 6:57 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Good one, Bill. I like the reference, too. <nt>

?

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 5:38 PM
from IP address 12.88.97.135

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Student Book Offers a Twisted History 'Coarse'

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011115/od/campusmentis_dc.html

Student Book Offers a Twisted History 'Coarse'

By Sarah Tippit

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Experience history from the Stoned Age to the Blintz Krieg! From Middle Evil Times to the Age of Now, from the Land of Milk and Chocolate to the Iran Hostess Crisis and the fall of the Berlin Mall!

Welcome to the wonderful world of ``Non Campus Mentis,'' (Workman) a book of mangled moments of Western Civilization culled from actual term papers and exams of today's ``brightest'' students by incredulous college professor Anders Henriksson who, while grading exams, chose to laugh, rather than cry, at his students' most egregious mistakes.

History, after all, is nothing more than ``the behind of the present,'' according to one student, who aptly added: ``This gives incites from the anals of the past.''

The once-mighty British Empire is in a ``state of recline. Its colonies have slowly dribbled away leaving only the odd speck on the map.'' Chairman ``Moo'' has passed away, as has former President ``Franklin Eleanor Roosavelt,'' and civil rights leader ``Martin Luther Junior'' was slain in the 1960s, shortly after making his famous ``If I Had A Hammer'' speech.

Hitler, a depressed ``Nazi leader of a Communist Germany'' who spurred a huge ``anti-semantic'' movement through a terrifying ``Gespacho,'' launched ``Operation Barbarella'' while the English ``vanely hoped for peas.'' The war began turning around, though, when the ``Allies landed near Italy's toe and gradually advanced up her leg.

Hitler ultimately ``shot himself in the bonker.''

'CRETINALIA HISTORICA'

At its best, the 150-page book ``illustrates the ingenious and often comic ways we all attempt to make sense of information we can't understand because we have no context or frame of reference for it,'' according to Henriksson, chairman of the history department at Shepherd College in West Virginia. He began compiling samples 20 years ago at the University of Toronto where he also taught.

Shortly after he began his collection, he published an article in the ``Wilson Quarterly'' titled ``College Kids Say the Darndest Things,'' which prompted amused colleagues at more than two dozen universities in the United States and Canada including West Point, University of Alberta and McMaster, to regularly send him their own inane prose collections. Last year, when he realized his office overflowed with funny samples of ``cretinalia historica'' the idea for a book was born.

While Henriksson declined to identify all the schools involved he said they ranged from moderately to highly competitive, about half were in Canada, no Ivy League schools were represented, and that one of the entries came from Oxford in England.

At its worst, the book may reflect a generation raised in ignorance by bad schools and disengaged parents.

``This is not the norm,'' Henriksson told Reuters in an interview. What you have here is almost 30 years of my collecting from students' (works) at various institutions. This really represents sort of the creme de la creme of the creatively inane.''

Did he make it up?

``No!'' he said. ``Who could make this stuff up except Mel Brooks. I'm not Mel Brooks.'' Which prompts the question: Should people sound the alarms and search for an ``escape goat?''

Maybe. Hundreds of student contributors received passing grades with such statements as: ``When the Davy Jones Index crashed in 1929 many people were left to political incineration. Some, like John Paul Sart, retreated into extraterrestrialism. The New Deal was an idea inspired by Franklin Eleanor Roosavelt.''

(The Boston Tea Party, by the way, was held at Pearl Harbor.)

Gravity of the misstatements aside, the bloopers make a great reference whether one seeks information on the Canadian Missile Crisis, clashes between Israelis and Parisians, or the Gulf War (news - web sites) in which, according to one scholar: ``Satan Husane invaided Kiwi and Sandy Arabia.''

(No doubt an act of ``premedication.'')

'NEW INCITES'

Henriksson said the errors fall into three major categories. Some are simply caused by bad spelling or a lack of proofreading, and come out funny. Some were prompted by a ''profound lack of preparation, while others, just seem to be ''really out at sea,'' he said.

``You get the ones who don't really even seem to understand there's a line between past and present and they tell you that the first airplane was flown by the Marx Brothers. I had this one kid who wrote that Spartacus led a slave rebellion in ancient Rome and then appered in a movie about it later.''

The book offers fresh new ``incites'' on history from ''prehistoricle'' times through ``King Toot'' and the birth of ''monolithic'' religion.(''Judyism had one big God named Yahoo'').

The book goes on to ``chronicle'' the birth of Christianity (''Just another mystery cult until Jesus was born'') and, his pronouncement, later, that ``The mice shall inherit the earth.''

The book sheds new light on the lives of Martin Luther (he nailed 95 theocrats to a church door), ``Florence of Arabia,'' and General George ``Custard'' who managed to stand up anyway.

(''Martian Luther King's'' four steps to direct action, by the way, included ``self purification,'' when you ``allow yourself to be eaten to a pulp.'')

In its final pages, the book includes students' geographical misconceptions as represented on several world maps bearing such labels as ``The Land of Milk and Chocolate'' and ``Home of Golden Fleas'' (in the Ancient World) to ``Bulemia,'' ''Whales,'' ``Roam,'' the ``Eel of France,'' and the ``Automaton Empire'' (as they were known in the ``Middle Evil'' Times).

And it notes that, yes, there has indeed been a change in America's ``social seen,'' over the centuries. The last stage, according to the book, is ``The Age of Now. This concept grinds our critical, seething minds to a halt.''

Until then, however, we Americans, ``in all humidity'' are nothing less than ``the people of currant times.''

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 2:53 PM
from IP address 142.104.250.115

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Now I know - why - MBA's act like they do....

by Randy N.

No disrespect to the "good" MBA's - however few that they are...

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 4:27 PM
from IP address 63.180.58.200

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Best laugh in MONTHS.Thanks!<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 2:42 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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''Judyism had one big God named Yahoo''. Now, THIS is ...(more)

a Religion I understand.

Thanks Martin - good stuff

!

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 5:17 AM
from IP address 66.20.156.228

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OBL nuke plans found?

by Bill

This particular reporter tends to be drastically over the top, but still:

>http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001390014-2001395995,00.html
>
>THURSDAY NOVEMBER 15 2001
>
>Bin Laden's nuclear secrets found
>
>FROM ANTHONY LOYD IN KABUL
>
>Times reporter finds blueprint for 'Nagasaki bomb'
>
>Singed files left by fleeing terrorists
>
>
>OSAMA BIN LADEN'S al-Qaeda network held detailed plans for nuclear devices
>and other terrorist bombs in one of its Kabul headquarters.
>The Times discovered the partly burnt documents in a hastily abandoned safe
>house in the Karta Parwan quarter of the city. Written in Arabic, German,
>Urdu and English, the notes give detailed designs for missiles, bombs and
>nuclear weapons. There are descriptions of how the detonation of TNT
>compresses plutonium into a critical mass, sparking a chain reaction, and
>ultimately a thermonuclear reaction.
>
>Both President Bush and British ministers are convinced that bin Laden has
>access to nuclear material and Mr Bush said earlier this month that al-Qaeda
>was "seeking chemical, biological and nuclear weapons".
>
>The discovery of the detailed bomb-making instructions, along with studies
>into chemical and nuclear devices, confirms the West's worst fears and
>raises the spectre of plans for an attack that would far exceed the
>September 11 atrocities in scale and gravity.
>
>Nuclear experts say the design suggests that bin Laden may be working on a
>fission device, similar to Fat Man, the bomb dropped on Nagasaki. However,
>they emphasised that it was extremely difficult to build a viable warhead.
>
>While the terrorists may not yet have the capability to build such weapons,
>their hopes of doing so are clear. One set of notes, written on headed
>notepaper from the Hotel Grand in Peshawar and dated April 26, 1998, says:
>"Naturally the explosive liquid has a very high mechanical energy which is
>translated into destructive force. But it can be tamed, controlled and can
>be used as a useful propulsive fuel if certain methods are applied to it. A
>supersonic moving missile has a shock wave. That shock wave can be used to c
>ontain an external combustion behind the missile . . ."
>
>The document was one of many found in two of four al-Qaeda houses which had
>been used by Arabs and Pakistanis and even reportedly by bin Laden himself.
>The houses - two in the Karta Parwan district and the others further to the
>east - were abandoned on Monday as Taleban units and their allies fled the
>city.
>
>Attempts had been made to burn the evidence, but many documents still
>remained. They included studies into the development of a kinetic energy
>supergun capable of firing chemical or nuclear warheads, external propulsion
>missiles, preliminary research on the creation of a thermonuclear device, as
>well as a multitude of instructions for making smaller bombs.
>
>There were also studies into Western special forces' hostage rescue
>techniques, phone numbers for industrial chemical and synthetic producers,
>flight manuals, aerodynamic research, and advanced physics and chemistry
>manuals.
>
>The houses were identified by local people. Looters had concentrated on more
>appetising objects, ignoring foreign language documents that were of no use
>to them.
>
>Bin Laden sees it as his "religious duty" to obtain a nuclear bomb. In an
>interview with a Pakistani journalist last week, he threatened: "If America
>used chemical or nuclear weapons against us then we may retort with chemical
>and nuclear weapons as deterrent."
>
>Intelligence agencies already have indirect evidence from defectors,
>middlemen and scientists of bin Laden's obsession with obtaining or
>producing a nuclear device.
>
>Al-Qaeda agents are known to have spent more than �1 million trying to
>obtain enough fissile material to make a "dirty bomb" that, if detonated
>with TNT in a populous area, could kill thousands and contaminate it for
>decades.
>
>Intelligence sources told The Times last month that bin Laden and al-Qaeda
>had acquired nuclear materials illegally from Pakistan. And at least ten
>Pakistani nuclear scientists have been contacted by agents for the Taleban
>and al-Qaeda in the past two years, according to reports.
>
>Fears that bin Laden has components for a nuclear weapon is believed to lie
>behind the warnings from President Bush and Tony Blair that he would commit
>worse atrocities than the suicide assaults in America if he could.The Prime
>Minister's spokesman said: "Bin Laden would have killed 600,000 people on
>September 11 if he could have done. This underlines again why he has to be
>stopped. "
>
>
>

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 1:21 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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If not OBL then some other.This is not a single-headed monster.<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 5:19 AM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Dogs are suffering, in the wake of Terrorism....

by Alan N.

Article from today's paper. Dogs nationwide are under stress. Some guy called in to the radio this morning, claiming his dog watches television, usually calmly, but when bin Laden's face shows up on the screen, he begins to growl and foam.
=======================
Even our pets suffer from terrorism stress

November 15, 2001

BY MARK BROWN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

This has been a rough couple of months for Gilbert the mutt.

Gilbert started acting up about two months ago.

Just after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Coincidence, you say.

Hardly. It's happening with pets all over America.

Just ask Cis Frankel. She's a ''canine behaviorist'' in Chicago and the author of Urban Dog: the Ultimate Street Smarts Training Manual. Her company is the Canine Intelligence Agency. I told you that part of my confirmation came from the head of the CIA.

Frankel said the terrorist attacks have put dogs under a lot of stress.

No, the dogs aren't sitting around listening to CNN all day and worrying about where the terrorists will strike next.

But plenty of dog owners are, Frankel says. They've been calling her for weeks, trying to figure out why their beloved pooches have regressed horribly or suddenly exhibited behavior not previously seen.

Under Frankel's interrogation, the dog owners reveal similar stories.

''It's changed patterns in the home environment. People aren't going out as much. They're worried. They're stressed,'' she said.

The dogs notice.

''Some dogs are very sensitive,'' Frankel said. ''Now they start to have more accidents. The first thing that happens when dogs are stressed is they change their potty behavior.''

Some dog owners cut back on walking the dog after Sept. 11. Others started taking the dog out at different times. Even those who didn't disrupt their walking schedule may be so preoccupied and uptight that ''even when you're walking, it may not be a very relaxed time for him,'' Frankel said.

Tomas Flores, another local dog trainer who specializes in behavioral problems, said he's had a lot of calls from police officers and firefighters, anybody with a job that has required them to work longer hours or face new stresses because of the terrorism threat.

With my wife and me in the newspaper business, I can attest that our schedules were disrupted for a couple of weeks. The dog didn't miss out on any walks, but I might have made him wait until I'd caught "Nightline'' before the major pre-bedtime stroll, and my mind was certainly not focused on whether the dog was having fun.

You may have noticed yourself that Sept. 11 seems to have been about the time I lost my sense of humor. Gilbert, sensitive sort that he is, picked up on that right away. I've been waiting for the editors to mention it.

It didn't take us this long to figure out Gilbert's problem. It just took us this long to house-train him all over again so that we could have some confidence that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Who would have figured two months ago that bin Laden was at the dark end of this tunnel, too.

E-mail: markbrown@suntimes.com

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 11:16 AM
from IP address 172.169.215.186

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One can only hope that OBL's potty behavior will change as well. nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 12:39 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Right Patriotic dogs do change their potty behaviour .

by CJ

Posted on Nov 18, 2001, 3:23 AM
from IP address 172.173.253.71

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Maker of 'Heist' must be a milwatch fan....

Bomb timer courtesy of Smiths, and Gene Hackman's watch is some kind of WWW...couldn't make it out despite the super close-up.

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 7:29 AM
from IP address 151.202.77.42

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Actually those are more costume and props decisions. (more)

by Bill

The director would sign off on them, but the people who source this stuff for a production are often much further into it than anyone else would ever be, and pride themselves on loony (MWR-like, even) degrees of research and/or creativity. They seem to have a really good time! I know a woman who's been doing it for years, and she can instantly tell you where you can find almost anything, in any size or color, in Vancouver!

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 12:48 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Yes Bill, I have worked in production (props) and post production as well...

It just seemed like to much trouble to make that distinction in the title of a message!

best,

Arnold

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 1:41 PM
from IP address 151.202.116.232

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The Interview with the General ...

by OCD

that James D alluded to:

The Interview

Note: This is an exact replication of National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster, and US Army General Reinwald who was about to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

Interviewer: " So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?"
General Reinwald: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."
Interviewer: "Shooting! that's a bit irresponsible isn't it?"
General Reinwald: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range."
Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"
General Reinwald: "I don't see how, ....we will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm."
Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."
General Reinwald: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"

The radio went silent and the interview ended.

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 6:40 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.179

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Too bad....(more)

Would have loved to see her answer

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 6:55 AM
from IP address 66.20.157.150

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Unforunately, it's apocryphal...... (more)

by Bob

Hi OCD,

It would make a great story if it were only true. It's an urban legend:

http://www.snopes2.com/military/reinwald.htm

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 8:56 AM
from IP address 4.35.217.151

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I disagree with your comment ...

by OCD

"It would make a great story if it were only true."

Hi Bob -

It still makes a great story, as do so many urban legends.

Regards,

OCD

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 9:35 AM
from IP address 64.24.247.30

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What, please, is "urban" about this and other current "legends"? nt

by RobertM

nt

Posted on Nov 16, 2001, 2:16 AM
from IP address 209.44.42.201

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Nothing like common sense! excellent! PC be damned. nt

by James K

nt

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 10:08 AM
from IP address 62.7.73.246

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Is there a French expression that means "the spirit of the stairs"? (more)

by Bill

In the sense of the little voice heard, as you are leaving, that tells you exactly what you should have said in a particular situation? Stories like this strike me as encapsulations of that spirit: what we all would like to have said, if only...

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 12:37 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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"To be sure of hitting the target..."

by Cheshire-cat

"...shoot first, and whatever you hit, call it the target."

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 4:07 AM
from IP address 141.154.227.114

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James K and knife knowledge

by Bill H

James,

There's a MOD survival issue knife up for bid on ebay (militaria, 1976-89) that I'm considering bidding on. Do the wooden grips have the broadarrow mark? Which ones are true issue? I have yet to get one of these chunky knives for schwacking jungle growth--and that's in my front yard!

Thanks
Bill H

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 10:42 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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Hi Bill H, sounds like the wilkie survival knife (more)

by James K

Bob now has mine perhaps he might post a picture of it. The blade is 1/4 inch carbon steel with a wooden grip rivited to it, it is stamped with the Broadarrow and NSN.
Handy piece of kit issued for artic, chopping through ice, and jungle use. They are made by Wilkinson Sword who also make the issue Commando dagger (which is hardly ever/never issued). Used to be freely available in surplus shops but over the last year or so they have become very expensive and difficult to get hold of. If you miss out on this SASS in Lancaster might be able to help, if not I will try for you.
Regards James K

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 11:28 PM
from IP address 62.7.29.245

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Thanks James

by Bill H

I had one of these back in 90-91 when I traded some kit with some of the TA guys. There's a certain appeal to this knife. Fairly stout and obviously quite the tool.

What's your hat size in American sizes?

Bill H

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 5:10 AM
from IP address 202.123.134.220

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Hi Bill H, no idea. UK sizes I am a 58 hat size but I dont know how (more)

by James K

they are measured in the USA. If there is anything you need over here drop me a line and I will see what I can do.
Regards James K
PS Re your post below and the mention of Monty and Haig, I did some reading. Monty was nearly thrown out of sanhurst for excessively violent behaviour! Sent back to England under court marshall for smashing up the Bombay Yacht Club and awarded the MC for gallentry in WWI. As a general he went absent from an important staff/diplomatic function and was found having a meal with his men, he said he preferred their company! It seems that he was a very interesting character and well worth some research.
Duggie "the butcher" Haig had, in contrast, few redeeming characteristics. He did attempt to make amends for murdering so many of his own men after the war by setting up the Haig Fund (Poppy appeal) and died in torment. He deserved to.
Hope this was of interest

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 10:18 AM
from IP address 62.7.73.246

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Bill, according to my conversion chart, that's a 7-1/4 in US sizes....

New Era Cap Company (the folks that do all the professional baseball caps) has a conversion table between centimeters, inches and hat size.

Hope this helps,

andy

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 11:46 AM
from IP address 205.173.95.38

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OT, but here's the International Shoe Size page. (more)

by Bill

While I have it handy.

http://www.musonix.demon.co.uk/veganline/shoe-sizes.htm

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 12:42 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Thanks Andy!! I get confused...

by Bill H

during the conversion process.

How's the weather on Oahu? Been pretty damp on Guam recently. We were at the Hale Koa for a Korean War reunion in June/July. What part of Honolulu do you reside?

Bill H

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 8:39 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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Actually, I've moved...

Aloha,

We moved in the middle of July from Honolulu (actually, Aiea, above the Pearlridge Shopping Center and overlooking Pearl Harbor) to Bellevue, Washington, across Lake Washington from downtown Seattle. Not a new place for me, though, as I lived here for 8 years before returning home to Hawaii in late 1997. Did you enjoy the Hale Koa? Our wedding reception was in their ballroom in May 1999!

Mahalo,

Andy

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 9:41 PM
from IP address 63.36.222.167

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James, send me your home address

by Bill H

to my email address at diggerho@ite.net

I had a brief conversation with the guys at Mildenhall yesterday. I should know who got the job within the next two days. I'm praying reallllll harrrddddd!!

Bill H

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 8:41 PM
from IP address 131.47.100.10

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Ran across this the other day and thought it timely with OCD's post below...

by James D.

http://www.f-16.net/humor/paint.html

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 3:28 PM
from IP address 129.162.1.32

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What a hoot (and a half!) {more}

by OCD

Hi James -

There is a bunch of good stuff on that site, like this ATC transmission:

Approach: Air Force 45, it appears your engine has...oh, disregard, I see you've already ejected.

LOL!

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 5:07 PM
from IP address 64.24.246.94

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Or this ...

by OCD

Area 51
Late one afternoon, the Air Force guys out at Area 51 are surprised to see a Cessna landing at their "secret" base. They immediately impound the aircraft and haul the pilot into an interrogation room. The pilots story is that he took off out of Vegas, got lost and found the base just as he was about to run out of fuel. They Air Force starts a full FBI background check on the guy and hold him overnight. The next day they are finally convinced that the guy really was lost and is not a spy. They gas up his airplane, give him a terrifying "you did not see a base" briefing complete with threats of spending the rest of his life in prison. They say Vegas is that-a-way on this heading and send him off.

The next day, here comes the Cessna again. Once again the MPs surround the plane, only this time there are two people in the plane. The same pilot jumps out and says" do anything you want to me, but my wife is in the plane and you have to tell her where I was last night....."

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 5:15 PM
from IP address 64.24.246.94

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You come across some of the best things on the internet...

by James D.

when you aren't even looking for them. I came across this site while doing some research on the 23rd FG. It has some pretty funny things doesn't it?

Best regards,

James D.

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 9:46 PM
from IP address 209.240.222.130

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I thought the interview with General was priceless! nt

by James D.

nt

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 9:49 PM
from IP address 209.240.222.130

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Yeah, I've launched that one on the e-mail circuit! nt

by OCD

nt

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 3:29 AM
from IP address 64.24.246.107

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posting problems....more

My posts are so slow, I have lost several before they get posted. Is it net 54 or my system that is so slow ?

thanks

D

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 2:04 PM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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I was wondering the same thing. (more)

by Bill

It seems slow, but so does my machine, today.

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 2:27 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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No problems here. nt

by James D.

nt

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 3:23 PM
from IP address 129.162.1.32

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must have been time of day...working fine now .........nt

by david

nt

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 8:11 PM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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how did you find B'ham.......more

I was very surprised to see it mentioned. We are not a hub of world travel. Did you visit, fly thru, get lost

D

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 1:59 PM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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Oh, I do some business with a Software Vendor there. ..nt

1

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 4:04 PM
from IP address 207.243.107.55

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Not much in the way of watches here.........some estate

watches sometimes at Levi's downtown (too $$$ for me). I picked a Constellation forneeding some work at 5 points south pawn (lots of militaria there) and a nice seiko 150 at Crown Jewelers on Greensprings.

Let me know if you need restaurant.....BBQ, this is down south yo'all

... referrals

best

David

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 6:00 PM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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First thing I do is get some Pig Meat BBQ...more

Dont get me wrong, Texas has some great BBQ, but no good pork, and you cant make a Memphis Boy go without pork forever.

Gotta stop..Getting hungry.

Cary

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 8:11 PM
from IP address 207.243.107.48

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Real BBQ Test : do eat cole slaw on it ? ..........(ans is ALWAYS YES) nt

nt

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 3:31 AM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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really unplugged.....me, the WTC and my knee.......more (of course)

I am really stretching the unplugged area. I mentioned a bit ago working 12 days at the WTC. Like any good worker, I just worked. I ignored my body. Had a "strain " or "pull" in my right knee. But "nothing to bother with",I went to sick call...just follow up when get home was the advice and that was good for me. Didnt want to miss work of course.

So, now I am home, the MRI says my knee is ripped and surgery is friday.

Just needed to let off some steam I am so frustrated (partially because of other old injuries to that same leg). BTW, do we have a limb exchange forum (smile).
Thanks for listening, ignore this and get back to watches where you belong

best

david

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 12:44 PM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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Best wishes

Sorry to hear about the knee----good luck with the surgery and the rehab.

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 6:48 PM
from IP address 172.133.96.19

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Sorry to hear this... is it your ACL? (more)

by Bob

Hi Dave,

I'm sorry to hear this. Is it your anterior cruciate ligament? Torn ACLs are common ailments amongst skiers and I know how painful they can be. The good news is that there are orthopedic specialists who can do wonders with knees. During your recovery, you'll probably be prescribed a lot of rest and relaxation. This means you'll be able to spend a lot of time reading MWR

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 7:35 PM
from IP address 4.35.219.13

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Thanks for the support guys....more

I believe the problem is the anterior meniscus being torn. Luckily my regular MD is an ultra-marathoner and the track club MD and the ortho is a marathoner, so I am in good hands. Specifically not "knife happy" hands as my regular MD said.

Several people have been talking about rehab. I dont like the sound of that. (I used to be the psych at an inpatient rehab facility. How ironic. )I had been planning to return to work monday, now will try tuesday.

I have found one thing for me. Stick to your profession. I have always believed in being an educated consumer, however the more I read about surgery, meniscal tears etc, the more I remember I know psyche's. Period. Not knees. I am paying for his knowledge of knees. How does the quote go about Dr's (or lawyers )who do their own case have a fool for a Dr.

I appreciate being able to blow off some steam. This has been very frustrating, and you guys have been great.

thanks

David

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 8:08 PM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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David, you probably have....

A tear of your medial meniscus (there is no anterior meniscus

)

On the inside of the knee, much more commonly torn than the outer one. You're in good company; many people have had this, and the treatment is generally very satisfactory.

This was one of the most beautiful meniscal tears I've ever seen. Only a couple weeks ago, it was so nice I had to take a picture of it. The dark wedge shaped triangles are part of the meniscus, making a cusion between the bones above and below. The white band travelling through, and splitting the black triangle on the right side of the pic is a thick, indisputable tear. The black triangle on the left side is normal.

Well, in case you wanted to know what it looks like?!

You should be up and about in no time, but don't overdo it, man!

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 10:42 PM
from IP address 199.174.179.83

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Alan, is that what they called 'cartilage' when I had knee surgery?

Mine was back in the stone ages (have that three inch scar from just below my kneecap around to the outside of my knee...

David, good luck with the surgery! Mine was the old fashioned surgery, and I rehabbed it back into shape to run two marathons!

Mahalo,

andy

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 11:11 PM
from IP address 63.36.222.120

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Pretty much... more

by Alan N.

Andy, sounds like you had it done before they could do it with scopes, and small keyholes.

Often they'll call it cartilage. It's technically "fibro-cartilage" a more tough form of the stuff, reinforced with fiber material. It's very "dry" not a high water content. This is why it's so black on the MRI as it's essentially a "void" of RF signal. The tear fills with some fluid, so you see it as a brighter line.

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 5:01 AM
from IP address 66.32.121.201

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Thanks Alan, I never knew what it looked like!

...I haven't had any problems since the surgery (during high school), and I'm hoping that it stays that way!

Mahalo,

andy

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 9:42 AM
from IP address 205.173.95.41

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For those 12 days in hell.THANK YOU.<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 9:19 PM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Will be able to play the violin afterward ?.............more

Oh yea, cant play it now.

Seriously thanks for the support. Good to hear you are suning afterward. And we have proof of why I dont talk knees much. Seem to have made up a part entirely. But I do know FOR SURE it is my knee (thing in middle of leg that bends, right ?)

thanks

david

Posted on Nov 15, 2001, 3:35 AM
from IP address 24.12.208.102

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Bob, thanks got your package today (more)

by James K

It really was very kind of you. The spare battery for the Marathon wil go in as soon as (if) I leave again. The watch strap is interesting because I like the idea of protecting the watch from those horrid rocks and things that jump out at your watch. I have seen pictures of Israeli soldiers wearing similar straps and they do make sense.
But best of all is the excellent LED mini torch, in my view one of the best pieces of kit around and much sought after by tose who have come accross them. With your permission I will spread the word about where to buy them.
Thanks once again and best regards James K
PS Posted your and Bills things this morning, should be with you within a week (dont expect too much though just bits and pieces)

Posted on Nov 14, 2001, 10:53 AM
from IP address 213.122.217.3

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Create your own forum at Network54

*** UNPLUGGED HAS MOVED *** (MORE)

Speaking of G1's, just call me "Mr. BIN"

You da BIN Man ...

She's got an L.L. Bean copy that she maintains is "out of style". (more)

Ahem...now that is one kind offer...

So, I can let this other auction go now....?

The fact that neither wife nor daughter "borrow" my Aero's (more)

Mystery tour: Cold War missile silo complex

Bill, I'm curious. How did you come across this thing???

A friend who has similar tastes and interests sent me the link. (more)

Anyway, I enjoyed it a lot. This guy's got the kind of twist (more)

Particularly ominous, are these...

Climbing around in old missle silos is no more likely (more)

An interesting and creative use for cold war (more)

Gibraltar

Ex Marble Tor ?(more)

Any idea how many of these there are in the US? Great site btw nt.

Mallory's Everest watch revisited: picture of the recovered watch.

What an extraordinary image. (more)

Apparently Ingersoll made good ..

Actually, the dollar watches came much earlier... more

Isn't it something? - more

Chilling!.....nt

Saddam next ! ! ? ?

Well I gave our Fire Charity over a week... (more)

I share your frustration. Actually, given the way the world works today (more)

Up to you, Bob.

I like the idea of a 'real' family. Richard's lead? (more)

I can give you at least 10 names of fire fighters families (more)

Your call, Bob. I know you'll do what is right....nt

I agree with everyone else Bob

Hiya everyone, been away from MWR (more)

Sorry to hear the bad news Tito...

Sorry about the news, chair is yours and hope things work out OK (more)

I am sorry to hear about this Tito (more)

Try........

Sorry for this news Tito - more

There's a lot of that going around. Hang in and things will change. nt

Sorry to hear that. Good Luck /nt

Flight Jacket Smackdown!

Re #4, the navy blue jacket issued to Harrier pilots (more)

That Harrier jacket...

I saw one at Silverman's but didn't examine it closely. (more)

Brace yourself Bill...

Dangerous links, Carlos! nt

As for current ops...

I agree on the A-2 (more)

The break-in period varies with the hide. (more)

I recall now...

Hard to say. Sweaters can have a variety of attributes. (more)

Well, the trouble with the first one...

Another reason I prefer civilian patterns. (more)

I was once posted to HMS Heron RN Fleet Air Arm base in (more)

A-1, A-2, M-442, G-1, AN-J-3 and more

Source for Luftwaffe jackets ...

Considering...

Each horsehide has to come with a certificate of rightful death. (more)

G1 vs A2 and other matters

Flower power!

flight jackets

How did you find your Buzz Ricksons (I thought it was Rickman)? (more)

leather jacket care...

I'm of the completely ignore school, myself. (more)

A particular kind of shearling -- I *think*... (more)

Make certain that it is REAL! (more)

How does the mouton/shearling hold up to getting wet?

No idea but I'd bet it wouldn't feel all nummy pressed soaking to the cheek. (more)

The 'mouton thing' was for PILOTS, not bikers. (more)

Yes. (more)

Goatskin vs. horsehide.

The British issue flying gloves are made of Goats/kid hide (more)

The dread Wanker Factor

By these standards...

Wearing the A-2, and assorted Leather jackets...

It is starting to come into focus...

One of the reasons for no handwarmer pockets is (was)....

A slightly different interpretation...

Now that you mention it, I think I wound up this way (more)

I have a useful niche for the A2/G1...

The most hilarious scenario is when... (more)

* UNPLUGGED HAS MOVED * (MORE)

A particular kind of shearling -- I think... (more)

TGI*TG-I'm HUNGRY!Have a SAFE one all!<nt>