Welcome to the BroadArrow Unplugged. This takes the place of the Tactical Systems Forum. That forum wasn't getting a lot of use so we've decided to try out a new format. If everyone likes it, we can make this a permanent forum. This is where MWRines can talk about almost anything off-topic, not appropriate for the Main Forum. Here, you are free to talk about anything, however, I would prefer we don't talk politics. Once again, there is a zero tolerance policy for rudeness and personal attacks. Other than that, have fun!
Contact: admin@broadarrow.net
I was searching "navy jacket" tonight, looking for one of those canvas and alpaca numbers that doesn't look like it's been chewed by old crew dogs (they all do), and seeing lots of Old Navy jackets, when I happened upon this, which had of course just been listed:
BINned it knowing a 40 regular won't fit yours truly, but at this price, I just couldn't bear to let it go. However, I have offered to pass it at cost to a certain Timex-collecting MWRine with a dented 5513. If he's not enough of a wanker to wear it, my daughter looks pretty good in mouton.
I love eBay. Just when you you're convinced you'll never get another good deal... And that little perf-stencilled "USN" is so cool.
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:24 PM from IP address 24.80.4.208
... sorry, being silly. Good Catch, but shouldn't you check to see if you wife would like it? I guess there weren't/aren't many BIG pilots, were there?
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:39 PM from IP address 24.80.163.137
Shucks, man... I'd love it, most definitely! Are you sure? Little twinges of guilt (how can I take it when he's thinking of giving it to his daughter?) Whatever becomes of it, thanks for keeping me in the running...
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:06 PM from IP address 24.179.210.206
I was dying to see how the mouton chinstrap, on this one, felt against my chinny chin chin. We do have a theatre district here in town. But the mouton on the USN would be just fine, I'm wanker enough. Seriously, thanks Bill, your choice of course what to do with it, I'll email.
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:23 PM from IP address 24.179.210.206
The fact that neither wife nor daughter "borrow" my Aero's (more)
by Bill
strongly suggests that neither is the ideal recipient. (Have you noticed how women avoid garments that completely disguise the outline of the upper body?)
Those old school Air Force parkas (that's WWII) are stylin', no question!
Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 9:36 AM from IP address 24.80.4.208
A friend who has similar tastes and interests sent me the link. (more)
by Bill
Knew I'd enjoy it. Like those links to the "urban exploration" sites I posted here once. (BTW, I suspect that, post-9.11, there is a lot less of that particular sort fun being had in the United States!)
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 7:21 PM from IP address 24.80.4.208
.. rocket silos. Especially the way the walls are unstable by design. I've always been bothered being around what I call "industrial water." The natural waters, oceans, lakes, rivers are fine, a delight, but man-made made vats, dark pools, tanks, water traps, scare the hell out of me. Probably watched too many movies.
I love the way he says "very stupid, very dangerous" to the guys who tried to climb the walls, though he himself is not taking a walk in the park!
I think you're definitely correct, that after 9-11, this sort of wandering is much more risky.
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:23 PM from IP address 24.179.210.206
An interesting and creative use for cold war (more)
by James K
underground establishments is right here in Dorset. RAF Sopley (Christchurch) closed in the mid 70's, has several huge underground communicatoins tunnels and silos. They are now used for the secure storage of highly valuable Wines! safe, secure and kept in perfect environmental conditions 20 foot barbed wire fences, guard dogs and (at times) armed guards, protect the above ground enterance to what is apparently a wine cellar??
Next time you feel like treating yourself to an unusual holiday try Gibraltar, hundreds of miles of tunnels, from the 1700's through to the secret Resistance bunkers intended for use if the Spanish/Germans invaded and the hidden troop marshalling areas for operation Torch during WWII, cold war communications and air defence silos, Exocet missiles (captured from the Argentines in 1982)pointing out over the straights just to ensure that the Med is still our playground and the Joint Operations Centre still in use today (you cant go into these bits).
Regards James K
Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 1:40 AM from IP address 62.7.4.135
Went to Gib earlier this year. For a day trip it would be fine, two weeks there is pushing it abit tough. The training was good, but Gib is not the most exciting place in the world. Did get to go on the nuclear sub. that had broken down out there though. Nearly got to stay longer as our Herc. wouldn't start. An RAF hammer cured it though.
If you ever go to Gib. cross the border and ask the first taxi driver to take you to Los Lagos (Lima Lima).
Posted on Nov 26, 2001, 2:22 AM from IP address 195.195.42.108
I love the rock, been going back there for a number of years so Ive seen all the changes taking place? Stil interesting although you need to know what your looking for.
My Grandfather was once stationed at buffadero Camp so the FIBUA range was interesting.
Did you vissiti Phoo Mao the Indian watch shop on the high street?
Regards James K
Posted on Nov 26, 2001, 3:27 AM from IP address 194.66.71.10
Mallory's Everest watch revisited: picture of the recovered watch.
by Alan N.
Few days ago, posted on this subject. Yesterday, in the mail I received this color copy photo of the watch which was recovered on Mallory's body, found in 1999. Mr. Rae, of the Royal Geographical Society, sent the picture, along with the patent number of the watch, in the hopes that someone could identify the brand of watch. Watch looks typical of the wristlet-type watch popular around the time of, and after WWI, missing hands and crystal. The quality and finish of the case looks more like a jewelled Swiss watch, than Ingersoll, to me. Patent number is 6987 / 13 or 6987113. Picture credits are on the image. Mr. Rae's contact info is below.
What a cliche to say it, but if only this watch could talk.
=====================================
Eugene Rae
Librarian
Royal Geographical Society
(with The Institute of British Geographers)
1 Kensington Gore, London SW7 2AR http://www.rgs.org
e.rae@rgs.org
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 11:00 AM from IP address 66.32.118.114
Actually, the dollar watches came much earlier... more
by Alan N.
The original Ingersoll's were the Dollars. See this link from your post below, on the Timex book (a very good read this book). Ingersolls weren't watch men, but sold what they thought could make money. They hit the big time with their inexpensive watches very early on, and seemed to concentrate exclusively on watch product after that. At some point, the name "Ingersoll" on anything watch-wise meant it had a good chance of selling, and the Bros. were probably agreeable to allow many firms to make watches with their names on them, for them to distribute. Not surprising then that there are jewelled watches with Ingersoll stamped on movement. Many of of the Ingersoll watches were probably made well past the time that the men were actually involved with it. The "Ingersoll" Mickey Mouse is a famous example of how a well-known name turned around a nearly failing company, though the Ingersolls themselves were either dead or destitute!
Need to get a picture of the movement of this Everest watch!
"..."dollar" watch, trumpeted in advertising as "The Watch That Made the Dollar Famous." It was the brainchild of a clever marketer named Robert Ingersoll, who, starting in the 1880s, had been selling a range of miscellaneous merchandise—typewriters, sewing machines, cameras and other items--all priced at just one dollar. Ingersoll contracted with Waterbury Clock to make watches he could sell for the same price. They were a commercial triumph. By 1900, Ingersoll had sold 6 million of them."
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:10 PM from IP address 24.179.210.206
Queries to online US and Swiss patent registries showed no match. Tried a few other countries too. Would be neat if MWR could somehow come up with it, but you're right, we'd need to see the movement.
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 9:46 PM from IP address 24.179.210.206
Well I gave our Fire Charity over a week... (more)
by Bob
Hi MWRines,
Last week I told you how I tried to donate our MWR Charity Money to the Firemen's Relief Fund. The number I called led only to a recording asking me to "Push one if I wanted to Donate by Visa...."
So I sent off a kind e-mail asking for someone I could contact by voice to make the donation. Well, it's been over a week and no reply.
What should I do at this point? Am I being overly sensitive and send the money to them anyways, despite their ungrateful ways? Should we start searching for a better charity? Should I blow the wad on an expensive milwatch and give it away on MWR (charity begins at home).
I think it would be really cool if we could find a real fire-family to present a check to and then task one of our New York MWRines to physically deliver the check. That's just my thought, but I am open to suggestions.
Best Regards,
Bob
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 3:35 AM from IP address 4.35.216.116
I like the idea of a 'real' family. Richard's lead? (more)
by
It's that age old problem, too, of 'what difference does our drop make to the multi-millions of $ already floating around and not getting to the actual people it's destined for?' I wouldn't type your Visa number in, anyway, on principle. I wonder if anyone might object to it going somewhere not stated at the outset? Speak now(?)
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 12:22 PM from IP address 24.69.255.204
I can give you at least 10 names of fire fighters families (more)
by Richard
who are now fatherless and husbandless. It's up to you, but we'll know because I'll personally hand over the check made out to the family by Bob himself.
Best,
Richard
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 4:09 PM from IP address 12.88.83.69
With the situation as you have described and the stories that I am hearing out of New York of families that are getting the same treatment I concur with everyone else, your call Bob. I know you'll find the correct solution.
Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 1:48 AM from IP address 192.251.125.2
for some time now because I don't have a computer at home. I don't have a computer anymore because my work-issued laptop was revoked. My work computer was taken back because I was laid off work, haha.
Oh well, life goes on and I just have to find another job. In the meantime, I'm still with you all in spirit (and at least, behind the scenes, talking with Bob and other MWRines). I'll show up from time to time, but don't throw out my chair!
Best wishes,
Tito
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 8:42 PM from IP address 66.108.86.210
Earlier this year, you suffered a serious injury. Then your backyard was obliterated by some thoughtless souls. Now your very livelihood has been taken from you. Anyone who weathers this kind of adversity with the grace and high spirits that you have will come out much stronger. I have every hope that you will soon find yourself in better shape than ever before. There will always be a place here at MWR for you.
Best Regards,
Bob
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 3:24 AM from IP address 4.35.216.116
In the past on Unplugged we've had various discussions on leather jackets regarding this leather vs. that leather, and this maufacturer vs. that one, but I'd be interested in seeing a discussion on leather flight jacket designs.
So to get things rolling, a few opening volleys:
1. What were/are the virtues of leather flight jackets in the cockpit, and of what use are they outside of the cockpit for the non-pilot (besides trying to look cool)?
2. A2 vs. G1 vs ...?
3. What is your favourite design and why?
4. Any "secret" or lesser known flight jacket designs worth looking into?
5. Current issue designs vs early designs?
5. Any info/opinion on those curious blue/grey Flight Jacket's from France? (these have caught my eye of late)
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 12:25 PM from IP address 141.154.227.14
Re #4, the navy blue jacket issued to Harrier pilots (more)
by Bill
and offered by Silvermans (*quite* pricey!) looks to be an interesting design. No knit cuffs or waist.
Re #2, I don't really find most vintage issue flight jackets that practical for non-cockpit wear (the only kind of wearing I do!) because of the pockets. You can't put your hands in them for warmth without looking like a crippled kangaroo. So I stick with vintage civilian patterns with slash side pockets (or ideally both slash side and snap-closing top-opening flap ockets over those, as with Aero's great Longshoreman).
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 12:34 PM from IP address 24.80.4.208
I saw one at Silverman's but didn't examine it closely. (more)
by Bill
It was by civilian standards quite sporty and contemporary-looking, and seemed to be made of a rather light, supple-looking leather. A very dark blue. I think it may have a pocket on the upper sleeve.
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 8:23 PM from IP address 24.80.4.208
Here is a visual comparison of both blue leather flight jackets. Now brace yourself: the link Mike E. provided to the British manufacturer for the RAF shows that the Milspec for the Type 89903 is cowhide. Run away! Run away!
(BTW, the price is much lower direct from the maker than from Silvermans)
The French jacket is goatskin.
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 12:35 AM from IP address 141.154.228.34
I have yet to see an Air Force pilot wear leather in the cockpit. They were definitely a return to the pilot era of WW II. The new issue, however, are restrictive and not very warm. Most of the crewmembers I've met had them altered during their rotations through Turkey. Sleeves (notably the armpit area) were lengthened to give reach, pockets altered so one could put gum, grenades, you know,cool stuff in their pockets while liners were modified as well. Most of the mil pilots I know wear the Nomex jackets during flight.
As for merits, the A-2 jacket still looks rather appealing despite its inability to keep one warm. Form over function these days but definitely a piece of aviation history.
The grey German leather flying jackets have been very popular among AF pilots. In the late 80s and early 90s, A-10 pilots from RAF Bentwaters occasioned four German bases for permanent forward presence of the tankbusters. While at these German bases, pilots traded, pleaded, etc., to get one of the German leather flying jackets. Too cool.
Just some thoughts.
Bill H
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 3:50 PM from IP address 202.123.136.116
I have a faithful A-2 reproduction from Aeroleather. It is a stitch for stitch re-make of the original. It is correct right down to the WW II era NOS Talon zipper, and vertical pockets. There are no handwarming pockets that most reproduction A-2s seem to have. I had to get it a size larger than normal to give me more "play." On top of that, it's not especially warm. Any colder than a mild chill in the air and I put on something warmer.
All of that being said, I love my A-2 and I wear it every chance I get to try and break this beast in. I figure it should have that worn "wabi" look in about 20 more years of casual wear. That's when it will really be cool.
Best,
Bob
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 9:20 PM from IP address 4.35.216.116
I have a Veste de Rallye in front-quarter black horse that's totally supple at four years, and a Longshoreman in russet horse that at a little under a year still feels like wearing a suitcase. But that's the heaviest horse I've ever seen. If you can't find a place to hang it, you can literally prop it up in the corner!
Anyone scared of the horse-breaking process will do just fine with Aero's Alaskan steer, though. I love that too. Thick, soft, and a real wabi-magnet. My four-year-old Aero in steer looks like it was made in the Forties and taken good care of.
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:24 PM from IP address 24.80.4.208
Actually the "leather sweater" illustration makes sense considering how closely fit some of these flight jackets were. With no room for layers ond no "dead air" space, how warm could they be?
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 11:29 AM from IP address 141.154.228.34
I was once posted to HMS Heron RN Fleet Air Arm base in (more)
by James K
Yeovil Somerset. The Sea Harrier squadrons were based there and the pilots all had leather jackets they wore them around the station when in flying kit but didnt wear them when flying. Very cool arriving for work on a big motorbike in flying kit and leather jacket though, even if its in Somerset rather than California.
The Sea King pilots from ther Commando squadrons had similar jackets and did wear them when flying, but not it seems on ops.
Regards James K
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 12:49 AM from IP address 194.66.72.204
I guess that the first thing I'd remind everyone is that the A-2 was and is, by specification, a SUMMER flight jacket. It dates back to an era of open cockpits when it was first introduced. As any motorcyclist can tell you, a stiff breeze gets cold real fast, and even old airplanes can outrun motorcycles. The others are also summer flight jackets. So Carlos comes closest with his description of a leather sweater.
They are really windbreakers; if you needed warmer, there were the RAF Irvin types and the B-3s, etc. I have a custom G-1 with Thinsulate that holds up pretty well for most winter conditions. The Nomex CWU-45P jacket works pretty well for winter, as well.
I don't have a scan but the current German Luftwaffe flight jackets are pretty neat.
Regards,
OCD
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:39 AM from IP address 64.24.247.106
Each horsehide has to come with a certificate of rightful death. (more)
by Bill
That's in the US, but proper chrome-tanned front-quarter horse is really only made in the US, now. Globally, it's a much rarer material than mink! So $600 is....a bargain!
But it's likely to last for a good fifty years, which is kind of neat.
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 2:37 PM from IP address 24.80.4.208
1. One presumes that back in the day, it was difficult to produce cloth of a tight enough weave to protect from wind while being warm and durable. Hence leather. Also, leather doesn't burn very well.
These same attributes also apply to the flight jacket as an everyday wear item and for driving. However, the elastic waistband design is not suitable for motorcycling.
2. Loyalty forces me to choose the G1. Moreover, it has a functional inside pocket, a bi-swing back, and quieter patch pocket buttons. Plus a pen pocket. The A2 provides a sleeker profile, but is nowhere near as functional. But the horshide looks better, even if it isn't as durable as goatskin.
I and my A-2 have a funny story to tell. I once wore it shopping, and while entering Nieman's I was confronted by one of several animal rights types picketing the store. He asked "do you know what some cow went through so you could have that jacket?" or some such. I turned toward him and his friends, looked him straight in the eye, and replied, "this jacket is made from horsehide," and entered the store.
3. My absolute favorite is the RAF Irvin sheepskin jacket from WW2. Has "Hero" written all over it, very warm, and since it's belted, it's safe to use as a motorcycle jacket. Drawback? No pockets...
4. The WW2 version of the G1 is the M422A. Flight Suits and Eastman make excellent reproductions.
5. A summer Nomex CWU is lighter, safer and far more functional than any leather jacket. But it looks terrible and is difficult to keep clean in a military aviation environment.
my dad bought the french flying jacket from silvermans over ten years ago. it still looks fantastic and he wears it daily. i'd make sure you get the correct fur collar (it is removable)as the fixing system is different to the usa collars. the bundeswehr leather jacket is quite good and silvermans used to sell the for 50 pounds (not sure of the current price)
personally i wear a russet goatskin a2 ( but they're not so good for the larger bellied gentleman)and i also own a buzz ricksons b-15 field mod with a fur collar and an alpha industries b-15 without fur. the buzz ricksons absolutely out classes the alpha jacket (wool insulation, better shell nylon etc etc) for replicas i'd go for buzz ricksons or aero leather.
tip 2 try not to oil the jaccket as the leather can become very soft and very fragile. treaat 'em mean....
ben
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:40 AM from IP address 212.161.95.26
A particular kind of shearling -- I *think*... (more)
by Bill
The biggest consideration with mouton collars is whether or not they flatter the wearer's face -- honestly! That's the biggest consideration with collars of any kind. I have a long skinny face that looks naf sticking up out of a big, plush, very round mouton collar. On people with differently shaped faces they can be very flattering.
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:46 AM from IP address 24.80.4.208
The current G-1s use synthetic crap for the mouton collar. If you go the G-1 route, get it with a real mouton collar - it makes all the difference. And yes, it is shearling. Kinder and gentler on the neck.
Regards,
OCD
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:49 AM from IP address 64.24.247.106
How does the mouton/shearling hold up to getting wet?
by
Perhaps a curious question regarding a Navy jacket. But I suppose for a naval pilot to get wet means that he's really screwed up.
Since those mouton collars appear to have been dyed dark brown, does the dye hold up when wet? (this is New England after all -- only slightly drier than England proper, as you well know.)
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 11:51 AM from IP address 141.154.228.34
No idea but I'd bet it wouldn't feel all nummy pressed soaking to the cheek. (more)
by Bill
This mouton collar thing was to wear *inside airplanes*, I think -- as soon as airplanes had interiors, anyway. You don't see too many real biker jackets with mouton, and some patterns have wisely had removable mouton.
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 2:33 PM from IP address 24.80.4.208
The 'mouton thing' was for PILOTS, not bikers. (more)
by OCD
Hi Bill -
The real value of mouton on the collar is not so much the warmth but rather the lack of chafing as you keep turning your head around. A 'swivel head' is of great occupational value to a pilot, little to a biker. Less chafing with the mouton - and, of course, that warm fuzzy feeling.
Regards,
OCD
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 7:26 AM from IP address 64.24.247.203
Actually, horsehide is every bit as durable - more so, truth be told - as goat. Horsehide is also inherently waterresistant; You can wear the darn things in the rain for hours and stay dry, without them soaking through at all.
Goat is much more supple, though the heavier weight used in a jacket like the AN-J-3 makes it as stiff initially as the horse.
Regards,
OCD
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 4:54 AM from IP address 64.24.247.106
To tell the truth, the main reason I wouldn't wear one of the classic American leather flight jackets is that I'd be afraid of someone like OCD seeing me in it and thinking "There goes another tragic wanker trying to look like a pilot..." This would probably not be the case if I had any sort of military or related background, but I don't. Rather pointedly the opposite, in fact. As it is, though, wearing an A2 would make me feel like Walter Mitty. Or rather, feel that I looked like Walter Mitty -- because I'm quite happy, delighted even, to walk around wearing what may well have been a British UDT diver's watch. But all anyone will ever say about that is "Gee, that watch looks old," or "That's a big old watch with sort of dirty brown numbers on it, isn't it?"
The A2 and similar are a sticking point in the way that cowboy boots have been, for me. If I knew how to ride a horse, I'd wear them, but I don't, so I don't.
Fortunately this doesn't apply to the majority of military outerwear, though I'd feel uncomfortable wearing more than one piece at a time. BDU trou and civilian shirt, okay; BDU trou and military shirt not okay. Jeans and milstyle shirt, okay; etc. So I can wear N-3B's, MA-1's (more danger of being mistaken for skinhead sympathies, there, than for a desire to be associated with military aviation)...
If I were OCD, or Bob, I'd wear 'em, and if I rode horses at all I'd have a pair of cowboy boots, because they look good.
Anybody else feel this way?
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 5:10 PM from IP address 24.80.4.208
.. everyone who wore most every civilan-made leather bomber jacket would be a wanker, since the A-2 has pretty much inspired them all.
Besides, if you see anyone under the age of 70 wearing a classic-style, closely cut A2, they're not trying to make you think they're a pilot. They're trying to make you think they're Steve McQueen. Or perhaps the Fonz.
With regard to wearing other kit such as BDUs, there is another side to that as well. As far as I know it's still against regulations for service people to mix parts of the uniform with civilan clothing, though it may not be enforced. The Army is esp. big on that, because in the post-WW2 period lots of discharged soldiers would wear uniform items as clothing, and many also bought surplus uniforms and started wearing parts of them. Some of these people committed crimes, or were otherwise held in ill repute because they were drifters (domestic economic refugees). The resultant media images eventually compelled the Army to redesign the uniform. Nowadays, since BDUS are common street wear we may see this happening again. The Corps is already in the process of issuing new cammies.
I, for one, would love to buy one of those Richard James DPM suits.
Mike
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 8:09 PM from IP address 209.232.54.166
Leather makes a great Windbreaker, and a great barrier to extremely hot objects which is one reason pilots, motorcyclists and drivers wear leather. For the motorcyclist, it's also a great insurance policy against "road rash".
The A-2 as well as the G-1 were designed as a summer jacket. It's worn on the airfield where the open spaces and aircraft engines increase windchill by several times, even during hot summer days. WW2 uniform specifications usually noted that a Shearling coat was to be worn over an A-2, much like an overcoat would go over a sportscoat.
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 10:31 PM from IP address 152.163.197.192
Thanks for that extra bit of information: I think I am beginning to understand the A2 and G1 designs. I see now why they have knit wool cuffs and hems, why they didn't have "handwarmer" type pockets, and why they were fit so closely. I get it!
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 5:18 AM from IP address 141.154.226.111
One of the reasons for no handwarmer pockets is (was)....
by
that officers were not supposed to stand around with their hands in their pockets! The same is also true for some uniform pants. For example, at the Naval Academy, the uniform pants worn for academic classes have only back pockets so that the midshipmen will not put their hands in the front pockets. These pants cut a very nice look, but, damn, I wish mine still fit!
Bob.
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 10:20 AM from IP address 63.48.129.72
Like you I have no military background, other than coming from a military family (mother's side). My intended military career was terminated before it could begin, but I do feel the same way -- yet my focus is mainly on insignia. To me someone who is wearing an A2 is not trying to look like a pilot -- it is after all a classic and almost universal piece of Americana, and I'd bet that most of the people who buy replica A2's in the US don't even realize what it is. Just perhaps that it has a classic old movie look about it.
Rather it is the guy wearing an A2 that has been covered with squadron patches and other military insignia that is trying to look like a pilot. After all, when was the last time you saw a real active duty military pilot wearing a plain A2 or G1? For me it is the insignia which demarks the line between ethical civilian wear and authentic military wear. To wear the latter, one should either be a pilot or a former pilot who has earned the right to wear each and every piece of insignia on it.
A grey area would be wearing an inherited vintage jacket (with insignia) from a family member who had served. Any thoughts from our former military pilots?
Since I was a kid I have coveted a "Flying Tigers" A2. You know the one with the "blood chit" sewn onto the back or into the lining? But nowadays manufacturers seem to only make full replicas of "Flying Tigers" jackets with all of the patches and insignia in addition to the blood chit, and these I flatly reject as unacceptable. Is this walking too fine a line?
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 2:43 AM from IP address 141.154.226.111
Now that you mention it, I think I wound up this way (more)
by Bill
in reaction to those patch-covered Avirex jobs, the ambience in the old Cockpit store in Beverly Hills.
Aero, by the way, will do you an A2 with just the blood chit, I believe.
But having been headed in this direction, I was driven further by (1) the cut, which may have been very practical in a cockpit, but arguably isn't, at large, (2) the type and positioning of the pockets (which I have read was specified in part as a preventative for pilots standing "arms akimbo", which may well be myth) and (3) the discovery of Aero's reproductions of incredibly bitchin' civilian jackets which I had long coveted in vintage clothing shops but had been unable to wear because they are invariably much too short in the body.
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 6:44 AM from IP address 24.80.4.208
Last winter I picked up an absurdly expensive high-grade fleece pullover to put the type on trial so to speak, using it for light outerwear in autumn/spring, and during winter as a warm-up layer indoors or an intermediate layer outdoors. Naturally the synthetic fleece has the annoying tendency to get dirty instantly somehow, but at least it is machine washable -- which I can't say for tweed sportcoats (I HATE having to go to the dry cleaners).
So I was just about to order up a bunch more of these overpriced fleece things, but now that I understand the proper role of the A2/G1 I could just substitute one of those, and it would require no care and last forever. That sounds like a plan.
For wear in real cold I would follow your example and go for one of those heavy-duty horsehide civilian jobs from Aero, or with my wool winter coats or my polar-grade parka.
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 8:40 AM from IP address 141.154.226.111
When a wannabee wanker in full regalia wanders into a bar and starts talking his trash and a group of real military types walk in. You can identify the real deal. They will be the angry looking souls with short haircuts, not wearing anything remotely military.
I've sat at a bar a couple of times when just such a scenario played out. Usually the faker exits in a hurry when he realizes his gig is up.
Bob
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 3:39 AM from IP address 4.35.216.116
And there are plenty of them out there, I suppose.
Seriously, the A-2, or better put, jackets derived from the A-2, have become a widely accepted part of the culture. It doesn't faze me in the least to see someone wearing a flight jacket. The wearing of 'flight jackets' is so widespread that I don't consider it any reliable indication that the wearer is, or is trying to pass for, a pilot. Flight jackets are really very practical pieces of outerware for many purposes other than getting into airplanes with open cockpits.
Carlos hit the nail a good one when he brought up the issue of badges and patches.
I really wouldn't have a problem with someone wearing a bloodchit on the outside of a jacket as a stylish touch. Sixty years later, I really doubt that there will be much of a problem with misinterpretation. The bloodchit is no more specific than an American flag on the shoulder.
I do have a problem with wearing patches and badges that suggest membership in a given unit, etc., when you haven't earned the right to them. I'm not going to be seen wearing an Eighth Air Force insignia, or a patch from a squadron to which I never belonged. You earn such things. The bar bozo that Bob described is a worm.
I don't have any patches on my jackets. They are as sterile as they come.
I wear them not to look like a pilot (well, you could ask Bob about my haircut, I suppose) but because I like them. I wear polo shirts, too, without playing any polo.
And I have a couple of pair of Lucchese boots, just to get Bill going.
Cheers,
OCD
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 7:17 AM from IP address 64.24.247.203
Now that I have the official stamp of approval -- and ways to get it without the other insignia, what were the authentic implementations of the bloodchit? I've seen them in silk and in leather, placed outside on the back and sewn into the jacket lining.
What are Lucchese boots???
Posted on Nov 24, 2001, 9:02 AM from IP address 141.154.226.111
What are your imressions of the A1? The modern replicas don't use capeskin like your vintage one but I do find its wool collar to be interesting: How comfy is it in real life?
I admit that the buttoned front of the A1 puts me off a bit, as my experience with buttons is a mixed one, but I do like the overall aesthetic of the design.
Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 1:50 AM from IP address 141.154.225.253
Actually, the only vintage flight jacket that I own is my Dad's A-2 from WWII. He flew in the CBI Theatre, and has one of those multipiece, hand-tooled leather blood chits on the back. The other insignia, like the CBI insignia and the Army Air Forces patch, are also hand tooled leather, except for the squadron insignia, which was beautifully embroidered, also in India (present day Bangladesh).
My other jackets are much more recent. They are things I wear.
My A-1 is actually capeskin. About ten years ago Willis & Geiger made some up from capeskin; this is one of them. At present most of the good names making jackets are using horsehide for their A-1s; getting large enough pieces of capeskin, tanned the right way and dyed the right color, to do it right is virtually impossible in the small quantities that this little segment of the market supports.
A-1s were funny in that they were quite inconsistent from one jacket to the next. There was a lot of modification and customizing. Not all jackets had the straight up, stove pipe like collar with the two latch buttons. Many had a collar like those on a baseball jacket.
Mine had the stove pipe with buttons but I had it changed to the baseball collar for comfort. I have an oak stump for a neck (always have had a thick neck, and, some say, a head to match) and the original collar was too tight for me.
I find it very comfortable. The drape is very nice but I suspect that comes from the capeskin, primarily.
Regards,
OCD
Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 4:14 AM from IP address 64.24.247.72
That explains the difference between USA Authentic's A1 vs. Aero's and Lost Worlds' A1s.
I too have a tree trunkish neck (18"), so the baseball style would evidently be best for me as well. I've been called "bull-headed" at times -- is this the same as thick-headed?
I suppose a G1's mouton collar would be more versatile since one can leave it down, or turn it up and button it. And I could get a silk bloodchit sewn into the lining...
Do you have your dad's A2 on display? It sounds like an amazing piece of history, and of course a priceless personal memento and heirloom.
Posted on Nov 25, 2001, 4:37 AM from IP address 141.154.225.253
I was watching an episode of band of brothers and saw a man get shot in the neck. This remined me of a scen in saving private ryan and another in Pearl harbour. I cannot remember treating a man for a gun shot or blast injury to the neck in twenty years of being a medic so I did some checking.
I kept a record of all the casualties I have treated and found that in 20 years I have treated 273 recorded battle/war related injuries. 75% were minor and non life threatening of the others the vast majority were to the lower limbs, only three GSW to the torso, one decapitation, a knife wound to the scrotum and most of the others burns or blast injuries.
My experience is the opposite to the scenes shown in most war films.
Hope this was of interest
Regards James K
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 2:45 AM from IP address 194.66.72.204
understanding, James, that the colder the climate the better chance for survival- due to less chance of bleeding out before medics arrive,or is that another Hollywood fable?Thanks-Ronbo.
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 3:13 AM from IP address 128.115.73.104
increases the chances of survival because it reduces the effect of shock (loss of circulationg body fluids). However this also reduces the effect of morphine which often pools where it was injected, soldiers then fill their buddies with extra syretts in an effort to relieve their pain and when the casualty warms up they get a huge dose of Morphine which kills them stone dead!
On the whole though cold conditions can help preserve life of a casualty.
Regards James K
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 4:32 AM from IP address 194.80.64.198
this one is documented in the book. If I remember correctly, this poor fellow spent several years in military hospitals, and passed away circa 1948 in one, a delayed death from his injury.
Regards,
OCD
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 4:46 AM from IP address 64.24.247.104
...were sustained during some of the most intensive close quarters fighting of WWII. In terms of scale there hasn't been much to match it since.
I'm sure you are right in terms of statistics. I did noticed many extras sporting 'minor' wounds but it was the experience of seeing a buddy die or get seriously injured that seared the most lasting impression and that is what the film-makers have recorded.
What I also noticed was that the medics made almost no attempt at resuscitation - is it that techniques had yet to be developed or just that there were other more pressing priorities to attend to such as those still living?
All the best,
Simon
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 6:25 AM from IP address 64.12.104.48
Battlefield First Aid save only those who stand a reasonable chance of survival AND eventual return to duty. Resusitation is no longer taught for Battlefield first aid, in low intensity ops it is practiced but in all out battle your time and efforts can be better spent on those who will probably make it.
In two episodes of BOB there are neck injuries and whilst I dont doubt for a second that such injuries do ocurr I find it strange that I have never seen one, pretty much everything else but no gunshot wounds to the neck. Quite a few head injuries though.
Regards James K
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 7:05 AM from IP address 194.66.72.204
The meticulous descriptions of wounds sustained in the Battle of Mogadishu (more)
by Bill
left me with an entirely non-Hollywood sense of what this is like. In some cases the experience of the wound had been described to the writer (of BLACK HAWK DOWN) by the man who'd recieved it. One man was shot in the shoulder, discovered the tip of an AK bullet protruding from the flesh (all of this, in the moment, painless), reached up to pluck it out, and painfully burned his fingers!
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:07 AM from IP address 24.80.4.208
I rarely get called out for a "simple flesh wound." If it requires my attention, it's bad... Mostly Gunshot Wounds to the Torso or head. Gunshot wounds to the extremities don't really require my presence unless the victim risks bleeding out.
That being said, I generally encounter open heart massages, pneumothorax, cardiac tamponade and other assorted life threatening traumas on a fairly regular basis. In the last month, I'd say about half a dozen give or take.
The US Army sends their trauma surgeons to Martin Luther King Hospital for training. This hospital has been labelled "Killer King" by some wags. Who would suspect that one would see so many GSWs in an urban environment? Go figure.
Best,
Bob
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 10:33 AM from IP address 4.35.216.116
Soldier from 2 Para injured in Falklands 1982, high velocity gunshot entry wound to upper right side of chest, exit wound left shoulder. Casualty lived. Full recovery.
Sailor Royal Navy, Falklands 1982 major burns on head torso both arms and legs, right arm torn off and lower left leg missing. Casualty lived. partial recovery.
SAS soldier Falklands 1982. left leg blown off by mine
Casualty lived. still serving.
Sailor NGS, Falklands 1982 shrapnel wounds to both legs, casualty lived full recovery.
Civillian Belfast 1987, fractured skull after being hit with brick several times, casualty lived.
Soldier unamed unit, Belfast 1988 shot in upper right chest with low velocity weapon of medium calibre, whilst sat in car, exit wound through back. second (minor)gunshot wound to head. casualty lived,
Infantry Soldier Royal Welch Fusiliers 1992, Bosnia high velocity gunshot wound, entry wound in abdomen exit wound through left side. Casualty lived.
Guardsman, Bosnia 1993 multiple stab wounds to lower abdomen and scrotum, casualty lived,
Dutch Royal Marine, serious burns due to vehicle fire, casualty lived.
Royal Candian Engineer, 1996 crushed from waist down whilst rescuing members of British Army in Bosnia, after his APC turned over. Died despite three hour attempt to save him.
Soldier Queens Dragood Guards Bosnia 1996, broken neck after vehicle drove over mine, eventual partial recovery still serving.
Child Bosnia 1994, both arms blown off by butterfly mine. casualty lived.
As you can see the injuries suffered by people in wartime vary wildly but in general survival rates are quite good.
Regards James K
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 11:25 AM from IP address 62.7.22.33
I might be letting the cat out of the bag by letting people in on a secret I just learned. I'm not sure if all of you know what Feng Shui is. It's basically the manipulation of one's surroundings to make an impact on finances, health and emotions. At the most elementary level, it involves the selective placement of one's home furnishings to properly enhance the harmony of one's home.
Well recently I moved around some furnishings and relocated my office to enhance my personal feng shui. Low and behold, I found my cat lounging on a sofa that he used to avoid like the plague. I also find that my cat spends an inordinate amount of time in my office when I am not home. In their previous locations, my cat avoided both. I think I am on to something. Animals know nothing of Feng Shui, which is a human concept. Yet, animals do have a keen sense of what's right and wrong in nature. Next time I move some furniture, I will have to pay close attention to whether or not my cat approves of the move. Is this nuts or what?
Bob
Posted on Nov 21, 2001, 11:17 PM from IP address 4.35.218.34
...that you've only got one cat. When you have a few cats, you'll know you've got it right when they all compete to sit in the same spot, or pig pile in certain locations repeatedly.
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 1:15 AM from IP address 141.154.225.169
Hi Bob
If this works for you than that's all that really
matters , there is also another belief when you 1st walk into your home from the front door that if you face a window is a sign that you'll be spending the money
as you earn it and if ther isn't a window you'll
come into a fortune or earn more money by spending less
Happiness and good fortune to you .
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 2:38 AM from IP address 172.138.166.128
Looked into it for my architecture, but realized I was already (more)
by
intuiting most of it already. It just feels right/makes sense. One thing I don't adhere to is not placing a window opposite the front door. I especially like the calm immediate vision of space beyond the 4 walls, and always place a window/door there. Clients can't resell their houses to Chinese folk easily afterward, though, which is a bit of a problem in Vancouver.
Posted on Nov 22, 2001, 7:48 PM from IP address 24.69.255.204
it explains the favorite room. why sleep is better some places. in fact when i move, i go to the bedroom and sleep on the floor for a night. then i find the position i end up and then that is how i place the bed. if you find the compass bearing you can use this for hotels. leads to better sleep.
sounds crazy. but then i collect watches and a bunch of other things...
regards,
bob w.
Posted on Nov 23, 2001, 5:57 AM from IP address 152.163.204.209
or earn more money by spending less
