I'm using FEL PRO 1247's and High Temp RTV black silicone, are these okay/the right stuff. I know there are a lot of techniques out there but what are the best methods for good sealing? I tried calling edelbrock's tech line but was on hold for 25 minutes. Oh yeah, engine has iron heads and the intake is brand new.

Thanks,
Erik

Do NOT use end seals with the RPM manifold. It will never seal correctly, and you'll warp the shit out of it.

Nash

Does it have to cure for 24 hours? The motor didn't go in until a week later so I didn't worry about it last time.

I'd let it dry atleast 24 hours before start up...

Make sure to get the corners good. Do it once, do it right. I bet you'd hate to do it all again after it's said and done?

My first time doing it, I nailed it just right the first time.

Spread the bead on the ends, and fill in around ports...and slap on the intake, and let it sit atleast 24 hours to dry before starting.

Set the intake on first...you can see the gap youll have to fill with the bead...its kinda high.

Nash

be doing some thing wrong. I have had my RPM intake on 3 Different engines and always usd the cork end seals with no leaks. Could it be following the directions and the proper torque that caused the desired out come? Proper checking and test fitting before installation is mandatory. I always place the manifold gaskets on first, then check the gap for the end seals. I like to see about 1/16" to 1/32" chrush. If you don't have that or or you have more than 1/16" than something is wrong with the fit up and the intake needs to be addressed. I don't like using that much silicone sealer on my engines. That stuff always breaks off and can foul the oil pump pickup. All I use is a slight amount at the cork to manifold joint. I do recomend using 3m Gasket glue on the manifold to cork face. Felpro now has a double sided tape on the cork to engine joint that works great for locating it. I also install the distributor while torquing to make sure that it stays centered. Once the intake is torqued I don't touch it again. I also pull that peskey locater pin, It just causes more problems. Oh by the way I have installed several other CI and aluminum intakes this way. And yes I have seen the gasket creep on the black Felpro gaskets. I still use them. Only torque them once, they seem to absorb some oil and swell, then retorquing causes them to split. IMHO

Glens67
67 GT 390 (428 CJ) Mustang FB
65 Galaxie 500XL Hard Top 390 4 Speed
72 F350 Camper Special 360 C6
96 Exploder
0 428 industrial engines for sale
97 F250HD 7.5

. . . rather than using the dizzy to line things up. I've got pics of what happens when you repeatedly retorque the 1247, had them on Forum once. They definitely appear to blister from oil, at least mine did. Both my engine guru Charles Eller and Mark Artis showed me 1247s they'd recently pulled off and they looked good enough to re-use in both cases, so I know what I did wrong

As long as you have the right clearance/crush, cork works fine, I'd still be using it except my Sidewinder sits too low, so I've had to use silicone. BTW, Mark uses silicone, Charles swears by cork, but in no way are you going to warp the RPM with cork valley seals, what in hell do you think we've been using on Ford alum intakes since 1960?

-MB-

are you just about up to racing
Good to have you around, It's good to be a tough old bird...

Glens67
67 GT 390 (428 CJ) Mustang FB
65 Galaxie 500XL Hard Top 390 4 Speed
72 F350 Camper Special 360 C6
96 Exploder
0 428 industrial engines for sale
97 F250HD 7.5

Pull out the RPM instructions....and re-read them again... I had to my second time.

My Experience: I installed the intake BOTH ways....with the cork and without. I shoot myself in the foot for not taking pictures.....thats unusual for me...

Heres how it went...



The seals were placed properly....and I Beaded the RTV around the parts. Torqued it down, and called it a night. Went home, then READ THE INSTRUCTIONS, AND THEY SAY DO NOT USE CORK SEALS. Glen, re-read the instructions....

I headed back over at about 11 PM in a rush hoping that I didnt warp the shit out of the Intake.

Removed intake....and I was amazed at how the RTV wasnt smeared a BIT on the gasket to the head. It means IT WASN'T SEALING PROPERLY at the ports with the end seals.

Replaced Gaskets ($20), and cleaned everything up again. Sat the intake on dryly....and the gap was clearly SMALLER than the cork.

Followed the instructions, and the RTV Bead was used as the end seal. Torqued it down....

Removed intake for inspection...and the RTV was smoothed and glazed properly...

Just my .02......and the Edelbrock engineers and Faron's as well. I suppose it might be O.K. if you used a REALLY thin end seal...but your still defying the instructions.

Good'Day!
Nash

You said, "Do NOT use end seals with the RPM manifold. It will never seal correctly, and you'll warp the shit out of it." You are wrong on both counts, and despite what the instructions do say, nowhere in the instructions is what you claim even implied, let alone stated.

E'Brock says to use silicone to eliminate slippage and deterioration, not because cork will warp the shit out of their intake. Slippage has nothing to do with an aluminum intake, if you're careless or don't know what you're doing, yes, the cork valley seals can slip when you set the intake, regardless of material. So you glue the cork down on the valley, what do you suppose we did before God invented RTV? We used Permatex, the sticky stuff, worked like a charm, still does, for me and a lot of other guys on Forum who prefer cork to RTV.

Deterioration? How many years do you suppose it will take to deteriorate cork valley seals? They've been around a long time. You'll be tearing down to freshen up the motor long before this happens, and I don't recall Ford having a chronic problem with this before RTV, nowhere in the manuals I've got is valley seal R&R listed under Common Adjustments and Repairs.

If you've got enough space for cork, use cork, it takes a lot of silicone to build a bead that high, and if you do use RTV, try not to move the intake much to align the bolt holes, and remember, a single pinhole leak can really mar your day . . .

-MB-

Is I wasnt wrong on MY COUNT.

Mine works perfectly fine as I followed the instructions. My test proves that with the certain fel-pro seals, the intake does NOT seal properly. How-ever, if you use THIN seals, it might....

Email Edelbrock and tell them they are wrong....

Nash

I personally prefer the corks myself...if something goes wrong on the initial "drop" of the intake then its nothing but one big sticky mess. The only thing I do different than most of ya is use Indian Head gasket sealer to hold the corks down. Once that stuff sets you'll need a jackhammer to get it off.
I had no problems when I put my intake on...but if I was installing it in the vehicle I would probably use the silicone due to the fact its hard to see the back of the intake well.
By the way BOB that RPM is performing. If I'd known that it would make that much of an improvement I would have put one on a long time ago.
Rob

72 F-250 2v 360 to be replaced w/390
75 F-350 Ramp Truck 4v 390
76 F-150 to get 360 from 72
95 Windstar
97 F-250 351 windsor...and a payment now.
Ahhhh....pieces everywhere..and the pile just gets bigger!

Instructions (I checked my new RPM from the shelf) do state "Eliminate the end seals. UseRTV silicone instead. apply a bead of sealant aproximately 1/4" high across the block end seal surface, overlaping the intake gasket at the 4 corners. This method eliminates end seal slippage and deterioration." This was not in my 4 year old instructions only stated to use 4 small drops of RTV on each cornor.
I will still use the Cork end seals. Just like MayhemBob, and Ross stated properly fit they work. One small air inclusion or gap then you have a leaker and another tear down,with a hell of a mess trying to scrape all of the old RTV off.
ERIC
Your mechanic is not familiar with the FE. He meant that you can do that on a running motor with an intake that has external mounting flanges like a 460 or the windsor style. Yes with careful dissasembly you can tell where the gasket failed. Berryman's Chemtool is great for any cleaning on new or old engines, just watch out for freshly painted areas.


Glens67
67 GT 390 (428 CJ) Mustang FB
65 Galaxie 500XL Hard Top 390 4 Speed
72 F350 Camper Special 360 C6
96 Exploder
0 428 industrial engines for sale
97 F250HD 7.5

I always use the end gaskets and never have a problem. If its too tight for an end gasket (which I have only had one) there is a problem you need to fix.

Silicone works no doubt, but if you want to do things in a profitable time, and seal it up nicely, it just takes too long in my world. I can 3-M yellow the cork to the block, give a light swipe of silicone on top and immediately assemble. Its running in 20 minutes versus waiting all day to cure a bead of goop

I can see a brownish tinge around the heat crossover on #7 could this have burned through to one of the ports? Should I be able to see the area where the vacuum leak is? I talked to a local classic ford guy and he says to spray a little of berryman's chemtool around the mating surfaces and you'll find where the leak is. Something tells me it's not good to be spraying parts cleaner into a sterile engine...
When I get the intake removed do you think I'll be able to see where it was, say for example oil stains on the ports of the heads.

Thanks for all your responses,
Erik

Let me set this record straight. With our current intake manifold/block/head combination, there is insufficient room for the use of the standard cork end seals. So, we use silicone. WHEN THERE IS ENOUGH ROOM FOR CORK, I USE CORK AND SILICONE ON THE CORNERS. We also put a bit of silicone around the water ports on all applications. WE have some "thin" end seals avaliable, but in our case, they too are a bit too thick.
Mark

....home of the TexasOutsiders
www.texasthunderperformance.com

oil if the gasket is used by itself. BUT, if you ( I have seen this trick and it seems to work) put schallac or aviation glue around the ports, it seems to seal the fel pro from absorbing the oil. The metal gaskets that people refer to Victor Reinz and Fel Pro with the metal groves around the port for crushing, seems to work well but unfortunately they come in low-riser form.
The Basic recommendation that I have found is, 1) try the Fel Pro Printo seal with schellac or aviation glue around the ports. 2) If they leak or split, try the Victor Reinz or Fel Pro low riser metal gaskets. As for the front and back intake seals, I have tried both bead of Ultra Gray RTV and Cork. The Fel Pro Printo Seals come with nice cork gaskets that have this sticky glue on one side to holds them in place when you torque the intake- they work fine if you follow the torque sequence. If you use the bead of RTV method then you have to be careful on the oil return holes in the heads. You dont want to block them.

You said you don't use the dizzy for alignment, please explain your method with scribing. And for the record I don't use the end seals and I also don't use RTV. Haven't used end seals since I discovered "The Right Stuff" by Permatex, a very different product than RTVs.

When I said "RTV" I ment "the right stuff".

It is excellant end seal material. Best thing since buttered bread.

Nash

( sorry Nash) about the warpage, leaking and damaging the intake from using the end seals. I've used all three methods ( RTV, cork,& rubber seals) and all work when used properly. I prefer the rubber seals, cork does over time, deteriorate and leak, the originals in my 68 Merc's 390 are a case in point. After 34 years, they were useless. The only time I've used RTV ( or whatever y'all want to call the stuff) is when the gap under the intake was too thin for cork or rubber to work. Like one other who posted this, I now also check the gap under the intake before installing it to see what will and will not work there.

I'm trying to figure out the best way.

I just went through a top-end buildup on my 390 and here's how I did the intake gaskets:







Currently, my 390 smokes at idle and on decel. I think it has to do with the gaskets as it seems to be getting progressively worse. Just not too motivated to pull the intake off again. On my last setup, I went with a bead of RTV on the front and rear and still had this smoking problem. Odds are that the surfaces just haven't been clean enough and the intake wasn't placed carefully enough onto the motor. Back to the drawing board!

Good luck.

-Eric
'67 Galaxie | '00 Excursion

for your smoking problem, if the diaphram is damaged it will suck transmission fluid into the intake like a straw in a glass of pop....

First, here's the warning shot across the bow. Please note how the gasket is buckled between the ports. Tom P. reminded us a couple of months back that the FE has the only V-8 intake gasket that gets oiled like this, the Printo-Seal should't have this problem with other motors.





Here's the back of one of my gaskets. They were installed according to Fel-Pro's instructions (last I heard, E'Brock wasn't a gasket manufacturer), RTV was applied in thin bead around ports and water passages on head (bottom) face of gasket only, gaskets were held in gentle compression overnight, RTV was completely cured and about 0.0005" (not a misprint) thick.





Here's the top side of one gasket, two ports shown, the rest are sucked in the same. It's doubtful oil caused this, gasket under flange was in compression, there is no evidence of oil delamination when separated with a razor, bubble delamination on shiny side stops at flanges. The question was raised whether the intake sat square with the heads. Had there been a wedge, the gaskets would have been sucked in all on one side, either the top or bottom, mine sucked in all sides, impression of intake flange is even throughout.





Cork valley seals were fitted to the notches in the side seals (after it was determined by mock up that the crush was adequate) and glued to the valleys overnight. All gaskets were solidly in place when intake was set. Intake was mocked up again to make sure all bolts would start. RTV was applied at the corners of the valley gaskets, and a thin layer of RTV was spread across their tops as well, Tops of side gaskets were dry, I let the Printo-Seal do the sealing. I ran torque in three steps, 15, 20, and 25 #-ft, rechecked torque, then made what I believe was the fatal mistake. I re-ran torque a day later (cold), and I'm certain I further compressed the side seals which is what caused them to get too thin, weaken, and eventually suck in under vacuum.

Please not that until I had this failure, I was a proponent of the 1247, I'd used them on this motor twice before, and each time I removed them they looked like new. I didn't to the day-later torquing, though, and this is what had to have made the difference.

Once, and only once, did I follow E'Brock's instructions and use RTV for the valley seals with the RPM. I had a pinhole leak near, but not at, the passenger side front corner that I gave up trying to repair. After that, I went back to cork, just like I'd been doing with alum intakes since I had the Red Car 360 Starliner in 1961, and never had a leak.

As I mentioned above, and as a couple of the guys also said, if you can't fit cork (there are reasons for this), then use RTV, make the bead good and high (it flattens under its own weight when wet), try not to move the intake to align it (this is why I use the scribe marks), run it to torque, be sure to let it completely cure, and cross your fingers. If you're careful and the surfaces are grease-free, you should get a seal. If you don't, you start over. I'm using RTV with the Sidewinder, it didn't leak the first time, and the seals look sound now, although Bud4660 and I have yet to light her off.

Because my intake is port matched (1/32" under) to the heads, I make marks on both the heads and intake for #1 and #5 ports according to the gasket, which matches the head but is slightly larger than the intake. This centers the intake's ports with the head's ports, and I've never had a dizzy problem, the dizzy indexes inside the block anyway, and the trapezoidal o-ring gasket seals the hole in the intake.

I may edit this after I post it, but these are the essentials of what I've been doing, successfully and unsuccessfully. I stand by cork valley seals, if they're good enough for Ford, Fel-Pro, Mr. Gasket, etc., they're good enough for the MayhemMotor when they can be made to fit. Oh, yes, I'm using the Mr. Gasket 202-As now, they looked almost good enough to reuse except where the RTV at the water passages tore them up, beautifully even seal impressions on all ports, and no oil in the cylinders, for a change.

The suggestion that a bad vacuum modulator could cause oil burning under high vacuum definitely has merit, BTW, Charlie Roehm just learned this the hard way on his CO trip the other day. Don't pull that intake until you've replace the modulator, they're cheap, it's easy, and it's a hell of a lot less work than pulling an intake, but you already know this . . .

-MB-

.........gaskets, straight from the DEP assembly line. Sure, they're almost 40 years old, but still look good to me. Maybe I'll also send a set of 427 steel head gaskets from the same assembly line. Let me know, I'll be leaving Friday, the 30th, for the "coo-luke-coo-coo", Great White North, eh?, for a week of much needed rest on Trout Lake, Sod of Sudbury, four hours Nord of Toronto, Rod.

Mickey Thompson's 63 1/2 AFX Hi-Rise 427 Lgt/Wgt Galaxie
1957 C-600 Cab-over carhauler w/390-4V, 2-speed rear-end

I would use silicone only... IF your block has EVER been decked, or IF the heads have been milled, then the cork gaskets will hold the ends of the intake up and PROBABLY cause an internal vaccume leak (sucking oil up from the intake valley into the intake ports).

Run a nice bead of silicone on the end rails of the block, place the intake gaskets DIRECTLY onto the heads (no sealer) and carefully set the intake into place (try not to slide it front to rear. Put the bolts in and tighten, let it set up over night...

Good luck

Steve

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