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C1AE-6090-A heads are for what application??

July 11 2006 at 8:05 PM
R J Sledge  (Login slow390)
Members

Found a very nice set of these heads, complete in a machine shop I frequent, valves sit nice and high and they look like a very nice set. I don't particularly need them and don't know what they came on. Any idea of what they are. Later RJ

 
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(Login daveshoe)

Found on all 1961-63FEs except racing.

July 11 2006, 8:25 PM 

Those heads are the same as C4AE-6090-G (the common 1964-65 casting) and most earlier FE heads, too. The CJ head is a low-performance variation of the C1 heads you are looking at, though the CJ did get larger valves which helped out a bit.

The C1 heads don't have the capacity to be drilled for the diagonal exhaust bolt pattern of all 1966-later FE castings, but they lack the thermactor bumps in the ceiling of the exhaust runner which restrict exhaust flow. The heads are common and cheap. Even better than the fine early iron FE 4V intake of 1958-65, the heads are capable of making some serious horsepower.

Reference a list that needs more detail added:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1089358383/H

JMO,
Shoe.

 
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R J Sledge
(Login slow390)
Members

Re: Found on all 1961-63FEs except racing.

July 11 2006, 8:39 PM 

Thanks alot Dave, if anyone needs a set of nice complete heads let me know, I think I can get them cheap.

I am in the process of putting a 427 together for the Sedan, and have freshened the 390 that I ran the cap saddle on and had in the wagon, I have been thinking about end milling the "diamonds" sections out of it and trying it again, it will be in a toned down Stock Eliminator version and hope it won't get up in the air too much. Let me know what you think and I will post more on it when I get it together and run it. Hopefully it will have a better outcome than before. Hey why the Hell not, Huh???

Later RJ

 
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(Login daveshoe)

I'm not sure I see any benefit to trimming the Capsaddle.

July 15 2006, 10:52 AM 

I reported the findings of your first run with the Capsaddle, and didn't see where the Capsaddle had any negative effect, only positive effect. I didn't editoriallize during the report, preferring to relay your report to me, but I might as well provide some opinions now, based on the info learned, since it may affect the course you are headed on, reference old threads:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1143501129/F

and

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1143520002/C

Two weeks prior to installing the Capsaddle, you raced that 390 block at an NHRA event and found all cylinders were critically thin and problematic. It was the first time you raced tht recently acquired engine, if I recall. You took the necessary step to fill the cylinder jackets with an industrial filler to fortify the bores. At this time you also installed the Capsaddle, following my instructions very effectively. Analytically, this is a bit of a risk, because you made two changes to the block, thus making it more complicated to troubleshoot any problems which may have occurred. Still, it remains a worthwhile experiment, as long as you are willing to take the added risk, and also as long as we set the analysis filters properly. Along similar lines, I mentioned Wes's "poor man's 427" project should not use a Capsaddle for this very reason, as any failure would be difficult to trace to an origin, and it seemed he could not afford the risk. The Capsaddle remains untested, except for your build.

When you raced the rebuilt 390 two weeks later, the block was freshly filled and the Capsaddle was newly installed. You reported the main bearings "all looked good" after the race. This made me happy, but I could not state my happiness, as I needed to report the analysis matter-of-factly.

The #2 rod bearing had failed (nearly spun), but this would seem unrelated to any Capsaddle event, and most likely related to using the oddly modified "cross drilled iron" crank which came with the engine. Iron cranks which have been redrilled to become cross-drilled tend to have poor reputations. Additionally, you were logically using the rods that came with that engine when you received it, and I suspect they were stock. If so, it is possible the selected bearings had the notches in them which would allow the crosssdrilled crankshaft to squirt twice each crankshaft revolution - both times positioned far from the correct position for squirting the cylinder walls as originally intended.

An addendum is in order. The "squirt hole" I refer to is found on all FE production rods except the LeMans rod used in 427 sideoilers. The squirt hole is in the big-end of the common FE rod, at the parting line of the bearing shell halves. With a regular nodular iron crankshaft, the oil feed hole aligns with this squirt hole once each crank revolution to momentairly shoot a quick stream of oil onto the cylinder wall. The LeMans rod did NOT get this squirt hole, mainly because the LeMans rod was developed for use with the forged 427 crankshaft which was crossdrilled. Again, cross-drilling messes up the location of the squirt, rendering it useless for assisting cylinder wall lubrication. The LeMans rod did find a unique pairing in the commonly-drilled 428SCJ crankshaft, and the squirt-holes were still not present, so it is clear that cylinder wall oiling via the squirt hole is not required, at least when combined with bearing clearances found in 427 sideoilers and 428SCJ engines. Note that all factory production sideoilers got LeMans or NASCAR rods and forged steel cranks. All factory production 427 topoilers got cast cranks and common nut-and-bolt rods.

Most critically, you noted that cylinders 6-7 were severely scuffed, less scuffing was on cylinders 2-3. More-than-normal scuffing could be found on all eight cylinders. You attributed this to Capsaddle oiling issues, but I fail to see significant probability for the connection. Recognizing the fan blade rotates clockwise, the crank throws would be most efficiently scraped by the Capsaddle as they passed cylinders 2-3, and it would seem there would be no scraping effect as the throws spun toward cylinders 6-7. I can also fathom no Capsaddle windage effect which would cause oil starvation at positions 6-7. My prime theory was that the cylinders of this block were too thin. It is also possible the industrial filler may have not been formulated to provide dimensional stability at elevated temperatures after the short set-up time - at least not with such thin cylinder walls to provide support. Perhaps industrial fillers are different from racing engine fillers in this application.

Most likely, I detect a sort of "siamesing" effect in the center cylinders which may have caused excess "heat soak" to distort the center cylinders into an oval only when hot, resulting in scuffing. These cylinders would likely return to perfect roundness when cooled. The center two cylinders on each bank have little neighboring mass with which to distribute heat energy. The four corner cylinders have far more surface area with which to dissipate accumulating heat, so they would not get as hot. More to the point, the four corner cylinders should have shown no excess wear if all had been kosher, since the windage of those cylinders is unaffected by the Capsaddle.

Cutting the diamonds out does not seem like it would cause problems, but it would make the Capsaddle more flexible, and I question whether it would work as well. I developed the oil drains in the small "pockets" of the Capsaddle to drain more rapidly than they can fill (based on the air-pulsing action of the throws as they pass), but, drained or not, I see no negative impact of the stock drains on performance or oiling. The failure you saw was simply not caused by the Capsaddle retaining oil in the pockets.

I'm not yet convinced the Capsaddle will benefit from any modifications. When I am able, I will be building a Capsaddled FE. For now, I remain unable to schedule any engine builds, or work much on any cars.

Shoe.

 
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(Login RoyceP)
Members

What about C2SE-A heads?

July 12 2006, 10:02 AM 

Don't see them on your list but they are in the boneyards.

Royce



1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Medium Blue Metallic / Dark Blue

 
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(Login hawkrod)
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What junkyards are you in?

July 12 2006, 11:40 AM 

The list is for non-performance heads and those C2SE heads are definitely high performance. I would think any 406 would qualify as a peformance head. Hawkrod

Hawkrod

39 Ford Deluxe Coupe
59 Tbird 430
60 Lincoln Premier
(2)62 Tbirds
(3)68 Cougar XR7-G's
69 Cougar 428CJ 4 speed
77 1/2 Ford F250 4X4 w/460 swap
86 SVO mustang
76 F250 Crew Cab
1969 Mach I
look at my cars past and present at superford!

 
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(Login RoyceP)
Members

So I should have picked them up?

July 13 2006, 5:15 AM 

They were on a '58 ranchero. It had an 8V intake and a T10 4 speed. Heads looked like any old 352 or 390 heads to me, 2.02 / 1.55 valves. If the engine was a 406 it was useless, no carbs on there for decades and totally rusty inside. My buddy got the intake and trans, I got a set of LR cast iron rocker stands that were on the rocker assemblies.

Guess I'll get them next time. If there is a next time.

Royce



1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Medium Blue Metallic / Dark Blue

 
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(Login hawkrod)
Members

Yeah, any head with an S in the 3rd digit is a rare one....

July 13 2006, 7:25 AM 

T-Birds never used them, 61/62 birds had C1AE heads, 63 had C1AE or C3AE, 64 had C4AE. The different C2SE heads were all 406 parts. Don't know what the thought process was but that is how it was done. Hawkrod

Hawkrod

39 Ford Deluxe Coupe
59 Tbird 430
60 Lincoln Premier
(2)62 Tbirds
(3)68 Cougar XR7-G's
69 Cougar 428CJ 4 speed
77 1/2 Ford F250 4X4 w/460 swap
86 SVO mustang
76 F250 Crew Cab
1969 Mach I
look at my cars past and present at superford!

 
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