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significance of sand cast scratches in 427 service

January 16 2009 at 7:33 PM

Jim Wysocki  (Login 6667fan)
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block. Do they indicate anything? Do all service blocks have them? This one has a date code of 6/30/72. Thanks, JB.[linked image]

 
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Dave Shoe
(Login daveshoe)

Type Three.

January 17 2009, 2:57 AM 

I'm not convinced they have much meaning, other than the contract they were cast under.

I have noted the I, II, H, IH, and P sand (ice-pick hand) scratches (the P not scratched but being a precision molded portion of the pattern) casting. Since the blocks were cast upside down and the sand scribes printed upright the HI marking was actually IH, or faux roman numeral 3+1=4, if you choose to believe in the simplicity of the trinary foundry marking system which I hypothesize.

I believe the H indicates a three, and the P indicates a five, or fifth contract. If you believe the 427 block eveolved during the sideoiler era I would probably differ. Each batch was difficult to cast and each batch had passionate engineers casting the best possible blocks. Bean counters were the variable, and they helped define which "budget" and which "contract" the 427 block was cast under.

Some believe the "P" indicates "Hi phos" blocks, but I don't buy that. All FE and FT blocks in the early 1970s got elevated phosphorous to inexpensively shrink graphite flake size in the iron and thus increase tensile strength. Special racing castings got extra chromium to improve high temperature strength, and that is where I believe the 427P marking may have come in. I haven't yet fully figured out the 427 "P" marking.

Just making it up as I go along, but I believe it.

Shoe.

 
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Dennis
(Login tbolt2)
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Re: Type Three.

January 17 2009, 3:50 AM 

I would like to understand your definition of the term "contract"?

Are you trying to say that Ford used external suppliers to cast production 427 engine blocks, and not use either one of their casting plants such as DIF, CF, or MCC? If you believe Ford did, do you know who they may be?

When a program is being planned, assumptions are written like what the component(s) is, model mix, volume, program life, job #1 date, est. cost, etc ... . Then based on existing in house work, floor space, labor commitments, etc ... it is determined where the program will go to.

I've never recall these components being made or identified by contract. I've only seen that in the military and perhaps other industries, but not at Ford on major castings. However, by supplier, yes. Either a code or logo would normally be applied or cast in. On components that have only one source, there may not be a code, as that would be a given.

A component is manufactured according to the engineering drawing. The component in theory to be "saleable" has to meet the drawing requirements, and throughout the program should statistically be the same or better as time goes on.

I think when those marks are identified, they will turn out to be some sort of in-process identification, such as shift, line, molds, etc ... . Something that has a parallel or multiple path or variable in the manufacturing process and for control purposes needs to be known if something occurs down stream.

There was an engineer I knew back 30 years or so ago, he worked at MCC at the time. I'll see if he's still in the phone book and try to give him a call. I recall he had something to do with the 427 hyd blocks.

By the way, do you have any data collected or seen any correlation of the scratch marks relative to date codes or 6015 casting part numbers on these blocks? If you can share this, I can look through what I have. Perhaps there may of been an engineering change that correlates to the block markings.

Regards,
Dennis



    
This message has been edited by tbolt2 on Jan 17, 2009 4:10 AM


 
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Dave Shoe
(Login daveshoe)

I have no documented "scratch" info.

January 17 2009, 5:43 AM 

I recognize that 427 blocks were only cast at DIF and sometimes CF, never at MCC. MCC got the 360/361/390/391 castings from mid 1972-later (which include the 359/389 engines of the mid 1970s).

"Contract" is an internal Ford term, as I uses it. Just as the 410 Merc piston was contracted on the C6AE budget, the new 390 pickup piston of 1968 (which was a 410 piston) was diecast under a C8TE number, even though the markings remained "410" on the piston. I am a design techie, not a business weenie, so I can't describe the beancounter internals, only what I observe on the castings.

"Contract" may be the wrong word, but I'll leave that to the beancounters to sort out. All I care about is the sand scratches, and my distaste for non-productive paperwork requires that I make assumptions. It seems these assumptions may be causing confusion. If so, the error is likely mine, but also likely to bring us closer to a correct conclusion.

Shoe.


 
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Dennis
(Login tbolt2)
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"Ford Speak"

January 17 2009, 7:25 AM 

The most often use in "Ford Speak" of the term "contract" had to do with the UAW. The phrases I recall are "sourced, received the job or program", if to a outside supplier it would be an outsource and then later the term was changed to "resourced".

By the way that part of the business would of been handled by Purchasing with purchasing agents or buyers, not the Controllers Office aka "beancounters". The Controllers Office kept tracked of the financial end on expenditures, set up facilities and tooling (F&T) project and line items for programs, and authenticated whether the funding for a PN was there to be able to purchase the item.

Where were the later 70's 427 service blocks cast at, Cleveland Foundry?

I'll try to see if this guy is still around and give him a call.

Regards,
Dennis





















    
This message has been edited by tbolt2 on Jan 17, 2009 7:27 AM


 
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Dave Shoe
(Login daveshoe)

I believe DIF.

January 17 2009, 10:51 AM 

I haven't specifically checked, but I am under the impression CF got busy with other engines and dropped all FE block casting when MCC came on line. DIF seems to have taken up all 427, 428, and a little 390 industrial block casting once CF stopped and MCC came on line.

JMO,
Shoe.

 
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hollis franks
(Login hfranks)
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Shoe, incredible "stream of consciousness" post, I love it!...N/M

January 17 2009, 8:29 AM 

z

Hollis Franks
Black 63 1/2 XL R Code
Gray 65 289 Falcon Ranchero

 
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KenS
(Login cammerfe)
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To throw another perspective into....

January 17 2009, 10:06 AM 

the mix, FoMoCo, at least during the time I was there---'63-'70---was so set up that business between Divisions and even locations, was much like business between different companies. Thus, T&C Livonia bought gear blanks from Canton Forge. Both Ford plants, but doing a regular sort of business between themselves. We also bought steel coil from Rouge Steel the same way. And there was always a degree of pushing and shoving regarding material quality. I can very readily accept Shoe's scenario regarding the meaning of the scratches. Please believe that the engineers could be passionately 'hands-on' regarding their own projects.
KS

 
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StarlinerRon
(Login StarlinerRon)
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Most companies are that way, easier to buy

January 17 2009, 8:12 PM 

outside than from themselves. Frustrating for sure.
Ron.

 
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MeanGene
(Login 2many427s)
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Internal Screwing

January 18 2009, 7:06 AM 

I used to work for a pretty big engineering contractor, and they were divided into several "companies" for this advantage and that. We owned an asphalt plant, right across the street, but a "separate" business. They shafted us every chance they could get, jacked up the prices after the quote, made our trucks wait while they loaded others, etc. The owners didn't want to hear about it, as both "companies" were showing a profit.
Even the shop/ company equipment was set up separately, we "rented" the equipment hourly from ourselves. The "Shop" always crowed and bragged every year that they showed a profit, really cheesed the field people who were actually generating the income- all the money still actually came from the outside, from actually building projects- the point that really pissed us off, was that the "shop" would send a machine out from the yard, knowing it was broken down, and then fix it on the jobsite, and then charge the job for a "repair". Then they wanted the operator that was supposed to be running the machine to help the mechanic- but we weren't allowed to charge the operator's time back to the shop. Sweet deal, eh? And you wouldn't know the machine was busted, so you were counting on it getting something done, so you got the double whammy, and if the work of others counted on that piece running, well, you can imagine. Made foreman's meetings real interesting, the equipment supervisor would just grin and shrug his shoulders, and the owners didn't want to hear about it, as the the "shop" was showing a "profit". The Christmas party was the interesting one, when the folks from all the little "businesses" were all in the same room. It got so bad that, even though they were right across the street, nobody knew the people by sight or name that worked at the asphalt plant- it'd be "Who's that? Oh, that's one of those assholes from across the street". Add an open bar to that, and the fly on the wall had his fill of drama- the owners were pretty elderly, and would usually be gone by 7- and then the shitstorm started LOL

[linked image]

www.angryhornets.rant

[linked image]

 
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