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Anyone ever broken a factory oil pump drive shaft?

October 21 2009 at 11:35 AM

qikBBstang  (Login qikbbstang)
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Way back when in days of old Ford Power Parts promoted a dog-and-pony-show about factory shafts failing and their solution was to run the Melling HD Truck pump with a larger hex drive and their "special shaft" that was a standard FE size hex on the dist drive end and a larger hex the oil pump end to hook up with the HD pump.

Given that a "chain is as strong as its weakest link" and the cam drives the dist gear and out of the dist comes a small hex shaft that drives a large hex at the pump. Granted for FPP sake the "entire shaft is larger in dia" except of course at the drive end, so yes the majority of the shaft is in fact beefier but it all gets driven off a std size hex @ the dist end.
Ford Racing at one time sold a HiPerf FE shaft that was/is std size but with a nickel surface

So was the FPP a valid FE part?

 
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beoweolf
(Login beoweolf)
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Broken? ... No, but twisted yes.

October 21 2009, 12:03 PM 

As far as the old Ford motorsport ads...I think they were point out that the factory shafts were prone to twisting especially when using a High volume pump, like the truck HD pumps. If the pump is/was moving ah high volume of oil (or has an obtruction in the rotors) theshft would give a little, twisting. In a worst case you might lose oil pump drive - no oil, no engine.

You can see the same thing when someone uses oem/stock axles in the rearend. After a bunch of use they will tend to take a set, were they'll twist and stay twisted. They could break if pushed too hard, but its not something that'll happen without a lot more stress than the average home built or street / strip car.

To be honest, if I had one of the thick shafted pump drives - I'd use it, but I don't think I'd take a running motor apart just to install one. What I'm sayin is, I see nothing wrong nor does my BS meter start ringing, for me it falls more in the good to have rather than the Must have book of aftermarket parts.


 
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kevin
(Login HIGH-RISER)
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Of course.............

October 21 2009, 12:20 PM 

if you never had twisted OR broken ones, you didnt work on enough Fords. The real advantage of the bigger dia was less flex, meaning more stabilized timing. Valve seals were the usual culprit of barber pole shafts. People never changed oil as they should have, and the old neoprene seals gave up the ghost when overheated as well.

Ford Rules

 
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Bob Hasty
(Login hastyb1)
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side note

October 21 2009, 1:19 PM 

I use rubbermaid degreaser to clean parts and heads. Some times I'll leave them in for a couple of weeks just because I cannt get back to them. Anyway I have noticed that original Ford seals will start to desolve in this stuff. The newer replacement seals do not.

 
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Dave Eames
(Login DEames)
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Seen many in my career, never personally broken one.

October 21 2009, 2:47 PM 

They usually fracture just above the heat-treated area on the pump end of the shaft. I guess you could say the heat treat worked, sorta. I've also seen a few round-off on the upper end when shaft/distributors wear too much. "FPP" is a 7/16th's, chromemoly shaft, machined/tapered down to stock 1/4 FE size. Good piece.

 
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Doug Garifo
(Login pumpbldr)
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From the source !!!!

October 21 2009, 2:45 PM 

I've been around for years, seen this hundreds of times. I agree you would think a pump drive would break at the weakest link,(the 1/4" Dist end). But, they don't break there. 99 time out of 100 they all twist, and if they break, they break pump side. The pump gets the debris and locks up, then transffers energy to pump end drive Shaft and breaks. This is a fact, as of 5 minutes ago I counted the junk stock ones I have. I counted 63 broken pump side, 2 broken dist side. Dont forget I worked at FPP and ARP too and had access to all testing equipt, we tested everything. I even tested my stuff against theirs using their equipment on a visit/dare. The 1/4"x 5/16" setup is stronger hands down and might get you a few miles further down the road with some pressure vs NO pressure.

[IMG] [linked image] [/IMG]


Doug aka pumpbldr
Precision Oil Pumps
(559)325-3553


    
This message has been edited by pumpbldr on Oct 21, 2009 2:47 PM


 
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Marty Haynes
(Login fairlane_man)
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Dude! When you say twisted, you MEAN twisted!

October 21 2009, 4:06 PM 

I've heard of this issue on this forum but have never seen twisted shafts like that. I've always pictured in my mind maybe a 1/4 twist, top to bottom. Not a Barber Pole like these. The posts will have more meaning now! Thanks for your efforts to post these photos.

 
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Josh
(Login Bullitt406)
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That Shaft in the middle is WICKED! n/m

October 21 2009, 4:38 PM 

.

 
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DaleP
(Login Posi-67)
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Nice pictures Doug.. I've also never seen

October 21 2009, 6:04 PM 

one twist myself but had a FPP for years nad thought it was a cool piece. It went missing a few years back so I'm using Doug's now and don't expect to see any problems.

 
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qikBBstang
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You guys SOLD me but isn't the cause of so much twisting pretty much a lethal blow?

October 21 2009, 8:09 PM 

Regardless if you have a HD shaft or not. The torque difference of a pump grinding debris up internally with a 1/4 vs 5/16 shaft is not all that much if you figure a FEs driving it. They are not trash compactors. It will likely mess stuff up or the motors dropped parts in the pan anyway...

 
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qikBBstang
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ROFLMAO Doug for minute I thought you were getting into the twist drill or file business!

October 21 2009, 7:47 PM 

That's awsome they spun up so much

 
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Jim Demmitt Jr
(Login Boss429KK1708)
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Ron Miller FPP Oil pump drive

October 21 2009, 4:50 PM 


We twisted a few stock 427 oil pump drives back in the day's. I use FPP it has the 7/16th's chromemoly shaft machined down to stock 1/4 FE size. I never had any issues with FPP pump drives I also use FPP oil pump drive in my street Boss 429 Hemi. I do have one from Crower same as FPP bought years ago. The stock oil pump drives are no good when using a high volume oil pump

Jim Demmitt Racing History web page A/FX-Super Stock-Pro Stock-T/S
http://fordflashback.com/jd_fords.asp
NHRA Top Sportsman 7360

 
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Tom P
(Login tomposthuma)
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FPP shafts

October 21 2009, 5:46 PM 

I think the FPP drives are the ones Doug sells now. Right?

I have run them on every FE and smallblock and swear by them. Still 1/4" both ends in my case.

There used to be a whole selection of twisted stock ones on display at FPP. I'd never seen one in my travels until seeing theirs and since then i've seen a couple more. Good cheap insurance.

 
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RiverRacer
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Old FPP parts vs. New parts

October 21 2009, 9:20 PM 

"Response to Ron Miller FPP Oil pump drive

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the FPP drives are the ones Doug sells now. Right?

I have run them on every FE and smallblock and swear by them. Still 1/4" both ends in my case.

There used to be a whole selection of twisted stock ones on display at FPP. I'd never seen one in my travels until seeing theirs and since then i've seen a couple more. Good cheap insurance."



In a word, NO. The Oil Pump drives, Oil Pumps with Truck Rotors and Oversize bottom plates, SPS Rod Bolts, Rocker Spacers and ChroMoly Rocker Shafts where all designed and spec'd for FPP by a person who shall remain nameless, but stll markets most of them them to this day.

Being there from before the beginning gives me some insight into this.

I have never asked Doug when he entered the FPP picture, but it was after I left and took our OEM Vendor and copies of my(our) designs with me.

Just to keep the record straight...

Dennis,

Ford Power Parts
DSC Motorsport


Ford Racing Components
www.dscmotorsport.com

 
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Tom P
(Login tomposthuma)
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good to know

October 21 2009, 9:31 PM 

Thanks for the info, do you still make and sell those then? I use those rod bolts in my LeMans rods too. These have all been very good investments.

I am curious if the FPP intake gaskets are still available anywhere? I much prefer those to the Mr Gasket ones and with High Riser heads there isn't a lot available.

 
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Dennis Carrico
(Login RiverRacer)
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Gaskets

October 21 2009, 9:55 PM 

Tom. Yes they are. All the stuff is either still made(Oil Drives, Rocker Shafts, Rocker Spacers and Rocker Stud Kits), or could be produced again(HV/HP Pumps w/ 534 Truck Rotors). I can still get SPS Bolts also, but the price drives most customers to cheaper alternatives. As far as Gaskets, I haven't had any made for a long time due to lack of interest. The original vendor Ron and I used still has the dies. I just talked to them a couple weeks ago.

If I thought there was interest, I may resurrect some of that stuff.

Dennis

Ford Racing Components
www.dscmotorsport.com


    
This message has been edited by RiverRacer on Oct 21, 2009 9:59 PM


 
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kelly
(Login lowriser)
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What Medium Riser intake gaskets are out there?

October 22 2009, 8:13 AM 

I think thats a niche worth considering.
Is there a recommended part number?
Thanks!

 
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rcodecj Nick
(Login rcodecj)
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I saw one twist off while the engine was running. How many people can say that.

October 21 2009, 4:56 PM 

What are the odds? I was standing with the hood open watching my friends 68 torino with 302 running.
All of a sudden the engine rpm went down and the motor torqued up on one side, then it returned to normal idle rpm.
I told my friend to check the oil pressure, there was none. A piece of umbrella seal had locked up the oil pump.
The oil pump shaft looked like the pics above. I bet I never see that happen again, I'll never forget it.

 
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Rory McNeil
(Login RM428)
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Re: I saw one twist off while the engine was running. How many people can say that.

October 21 2009, 8:56 PM 

I`m pretty sure I was a recent victim of a broken oil pump drive rod a few weeks ago. I have a pretty clean, all original (for now) 79 Mercury Zephyr Z7 coupe, which I bought from the 94 year old original owner a few years ago. It`s a 302 auto, & appears to have never been tampered with (yet!), complete with 2.26 rearend gears. Anyhow, I was cruising down the freeway, leaving a Ford show, and after a while, I heard some noisy lifters, glanced down, and my oil light was on. I shut the engine off, coasted to the side, and popped the hood. No signs of oil leaking, no smoke, and the oil level was right up. I haven`t pulled it apart yet, but since the engine was running great up to that point, I`m assuminng that either a bit of 30 year old disintegrated nylon cam gear, or valve stem seal found it`s way into the oil pump, and locked the gears up. The negine is very tight to turn now, so I`m guessing the oil pump shaft broke, and it burned up the bearings. I`m not planning tearing it apart in the near future, both the Fairmont`s 428 needs some attention, and my 85 Mustang should have a good going thru, and new slicks, plus both cars want the clutches freshened up, I`d like to put a tubular K member in the Fairmont, the trucks deck needs some work, then theres the 59, and ............

428 powered Fairmont drag car, Best ET:10.03@132.11MPH, best 60 ft: 1.29
59 Meteor 2 dr. sedan 332, Ford O Matic
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4speed

 
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Dave Bickler
(Login bic98gt)
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Not a factory shaft but ........

October 21 2009, 5:36 PM 

My buddy had this shaft in his CJ. Don't know what brand it was but it sure made a mess out of his engine. Never did figure out what that washer looking thing is. Found both shaft and "washer" in his oil pan.

[linked image]

Original owner of an 24,077 mile 1969 SCJ Mach 1http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/518573

 
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