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Carburetor selection

March 8 2011 at 5:38 AM
  (Login sixty3)
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1968 390 stock bore and assembly
Edel.Performer RPM
Comp XE262 cam
Headers
TKO600
63 Galaxie

Have been watching the classifieds to see whats available for the $$. I know i can pick up a new Edelbrock for around $250 then the price goes up fast. I know you get what you pay for but I want to understand what i'm paying for.

Are the off the self Edelbrocks reliable?
Why the big price difference in Holley, Dominator,etc.?

SmokinJoe has a Holley600 in the classifieds i thought would be perfect for me, but...

How hard are these to rebuild?
How much more money would i have into it?
Anyone on the site rebuild these? Ed Jekins?

All advice and guidance appriecated.

Kevin

 
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AuthorReply

(Login 428kidd)
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My opion if it matters...

March 8 2011, 5:54 AM 

I would go with a 650 double pumper Holley new out of the box there good carbs. Thats just my opion again.

1965 comet a/fx style clone... work in progress.
1969 f-100 ranger 390 grand father bought new.
1963 G code box top 406 3x2 4 speed.

 
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(Login oldblue1976)
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what are your intentions with this engine

March 8 2011, 5:55 AM 

It all depends on what you are planning to do with your engine. If you spend more time on the street than on the strip i would go for a 750 performer edelbrock and no smaller unless you plan on modifieing it. I have melted a 390 down because i was using a 600 cfm eldebrock to race with and the fuel air mix got too lean. As a result i melted 3 pistons like candles. If you plan on a daily street driver the 750 edlebrock would fit the bill, right out of the box they hardly require any tuning at all and i used a 750 on my 390 for a daily driver for 11 years on my 390 and never did anything to it, infact i still have it on the shelf in my garage. So they are good out of the box for daily drivers. Now if the vehicles is a trailer-borne race queen then the holley line is the way to go. You will get more performance out of a holley for sure, but you better know how to tune one on your vehicle. I now run a holley on my truck but it is now a all out bracket racer trailer queen. When i switched to a holley from an edlebrock i droped 2 tenths of a second off my quarter mile time. You can run a 650 holley on your 390 if you know how to tune the main jets to your fuel needs to keep your fuel air mix happy. A keep point to keep in mind is the color of your spark plugs(new ones) for checking the jet size. The edlebrock 750 would give you a lot better fuel economy than any type of holley you could put on it, this is because the primary ventury are smaller than the secondary. I got a good 16 miles to the gallon on my stock 390 with the edlebrock, you won't get close to that with a holley.


    
This message has been edited by oldblue1976 on Mar 8, 2011 5:58 AM


 
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Aaron
(Login DakotaKid)
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650

March 8 2011, 5:56 AM 

I bought a Barry Grant Speed Demon 650 with annular boosters. I love it. I know BG has had some bad stuff but i gota a good one, although BG is now out of buisness, you might be able to pick one up cheaper now.

 
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(Login BattlestarGalactic)
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Not a fan of Ebok style carbs...

March 8 2011, 5:57 AM 

on a Ford no matter what.

A 600 Holley will do you well and they are simple to rebuild. Some carb cleaner, a large flat file to ensure mounting surfaces are flat and some time is all that is needed to bring one back to life. The worse part is scraping the original gasket material off the metering plate(if no one has ever been through it yet).

Usually any "used" 600 cfm Holley is about $50-75, unless it looks really new. A carb kit is $20-30 depending on how many pieces you get. There are basic field kits with just 4-5 gaskets, then there are kits with needle-seats and every little possible part.

There is nothing really to screw up when putting one back together.

If you plan on performance driving, then maybe a 750 Holley would do better overall. If you don't plan on alot of higher rpm driving, then a 600 will survive.

LarryK

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]
1964 Galaxie 2dr 390/6-71/4spd
1964 Country Sedan Wagon 428/5spd
1969 F100 428/4spd
1989 F100 302/AOD
1959 B Model Mack


    
This message has been edited by BattlestarGalactic on Mar 8, 2011 6:01 AM


 
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(Login oldblue1976)
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begg to differ

March 8 2011, 6:02 AM 

if you have never done any holley work, you will be lost. they are simple if you have the right mind set, but messing with just one thing like the acc. pump linkage will make you hate a holley if you don't know how to adjust them, they are the best carbs for performance on that i will agree, but you have to know what you are doing or be very brave.

 
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(Login BattlestarGalactic)
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I suppose so...

March 8 2011, 6:09 AM 

never looked at it that way. Guess maybe not everyone has the "sense" to be able to pick up and go? There again, if you just take it apart, clean it and put it back together(and if NO one has screwed it up previously) then there really isn't much to have to mess with.

LarryK

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]
1964 Galaxie 2dr 390/6-71/4spd
1964 Country Sedan Wagon 428/5spd
1969 F100 428/4spd
1989 F100 302/AOD
1959 B Model Mack

 
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Mark Artis
(Login texoutsider)
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another NON Edelbrock vote

March 8 2011, 6:23 AM 

Edelbrocks, Carters, etc simply do not belong on a Ford. A simple Holley rebuild is just follow the instructions that can be found on line anywhere. The same applies for any carb rebuild.

I HAVE to run the Edelbrock/AFB style carbs on some NSS applications and usually use a Damon Kuhn (Diamondback) unit that he extensively modified. That takes a cheap Edelbrock/AFB to a different standard and gets pretty pricey. We pull Holleys out of the box, do a few simple mods to them and bolt em on and go.

Yes, I have been building/repairing Holleys since 57.......same for the rest of the many carbs that have been used since year one......my choice has always been a Holley, NOT a Demon, but a real Holley over the rest if rules allow.

For a street car, I will always go with a Holley if the customer allows. Many have already spent good money for that dam Edelbrock performer package.......and we can and will MAKE em work for the customer's application, and to surprise some, those Edelbrocks don't always work out of the box either,..but I would rather put a Holley on and make it really perform. PUN intended.

Mark

....home of the TexasOutsiders
www.texasthunderperformance.com


    
This message has been edited by texoutsider on Mar 8, 2011 6:27 AM


 
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(Login fordsel)
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yes

March 8 2011, 8:02 AM 

nothing like a double pumper!!

 
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(Select Login ford428cj)
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I begg to differ~

March 8 2011, 9:22 AM 

If you never worked on a Ed carb, you will be lost! Metering rods are a pain in the butt. If you dont know what you are doing. My point is if you dont know how to make adjustments to a carb (dont care if its a Holley or Ed), then leave it up to a pro to do your work!!! JMHO

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

"The F.E. Wiki Home"
http://fordfe.wetpaint.com/

[linked image]
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
03 F-250 Crew Cab 4x4 6.0 and 35's
64 Falcon 428FE
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with 428FE
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

 
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Jason Engle
(Login jakengle)
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Holley

March 8 2011, 6:07 AM 

I don't have personal experience with Edelbrock carbs, so I will leave that to others to answer.

I have run holleys on my FEs for a long time. They are easy to find secondhand, easy to work on/rebuild/tune, and when dialed in they make the most power. They are modular, so you can upgrade parts of them as you want to tune them more. Most importantly, you can find parts very easily. For your car the choice would be between a vacuum secondary or mechanical secondary (double pumper). Usually double pumpers are for stick cars, but your car's cam makes it more of a cruiser, so you can go either way.

A 600 vac. secondary will work really well around town and have nice crisp throttle response, but will likely not make as much peak HP as a larger carb on your 390. I run a regular list no. 3310 holley 750cfm on my 390 in my galaxie. It runs great at low rpm and still rips to 6k rpm at will.

You can basically bolt one of these on your combo and it will run well (if the carb is working correctly and not been molested). Your other option in a vacuum secondary is an original CJ 735cfm carb from the '68-'70 time frame. Since these generally are going to need at least freshening before bolting on, you might opt for the new carb over one of these, but if you're feeling adventurous maybe go for it. A properly rebuild 735 is one of the best carbs for a street FE, since it is calibrated exactly for it.

With a stick you can also go with double pumper in a 650 or 750 size. I haven't run one of these so maybe someone else can comment on how they work with a stick, smaller cam and heavier car like your combo.

In the end, you can go with either the vacuum or mechanical holley in their basic model--stay away from 'street avenger' carbs entirely and you don't need the higher end HP carbs unless you plan on really digging in and tuning it like crazy. Here's what I would be considering:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-65-3310/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-65-4779/

[img][linked image][/img]

 
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Falcon67
(Login Falcon67)
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Carb

March 8 2011, 6:50 AM 

Either Holley or Edelbrock. Holleys run very well when tuned and the typical List 1850 600 vacuum secondary is as common as dirt. If you give more than $100 for one you've been ripped and it better be in great condition at that price. $35 buys a full Holley brand kit at most chain parts stores. Rebuilding is not very complicated but attention to detail is required. Tuning parts are available separately and if you don't have a stash of spare parts, you will be at a bit of a disadvantage tuning one. A 750 vacuum secondary will run about the same and are also very common.

The Eds tend to run good out of the box in my experience. They make a great street carb and are better atomizers at lower street RPMs in that respect than 90% of Holleys. The Ed is a bitty spread bore design with a nice primary booster system. They have mechanical secondary with a weighted air vane, so they are a combination vacuum secondary type, not like the Holley at all. They are fairly easy to tune and are not as leak prone to the novice as a Holley might be due to the one piece base casting. They do have lots of small parts, clips, etc and require care in assembly. A tuning kit is more $ for the Ed but it comes with several tuning parts and a book that shows you everything about the carb and how to make changes in a systematic method to get results you want.

Either belongs on a Ford - I've raced both and driven both and both types work well. They really don't care about the engine make underneath. If you are concerned about max ET, then the 600 Holley DP will be about .1~.2 quicker in the 1/8 than the Ed 600, depending on the car. For drag racing, it's hard to beat a 650DP Holley - nice all around carb and can have good street manners too.

1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
Owner built, owner abused.

 
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(Login BenVZ)
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Go for the Holley W/ Ford linkage

March 8 2011, 7:44 AM 

600 or 735 cfm vac. They are really simpe to rebuild . Use only Genunine Holley parts!! Check DSC or Carl's ford parts for good cores,have delt with both and will again .BenVZ

 
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(Login striptripper53)
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carb

March 8 2011, 8:06 AM 

summit has a remanufactured holley 750 on ebay for 251.95 says they have 8 in stock dont seem to bad a deal look under holley 3310

 
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(Login sixty3)
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Re: Carburetor selection

March 8 2011, 8:36 AM 

Once this beast is on the road will be a cruiser for who knows how long. Once the bugs are worked out and more cash becomes available i plan on adding to the engine or starting with a new build, but that could be a few yrs down the road.

Thanks for all the replies on this one. I really wanted to put a Holley on it just so i could say i have one. Didn't want to through money out the door.

 
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(Login Galaxie)
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I have a 725 cFM core too..........

March 8 2011, 11:46 AM 

.......i have 725 and 780 CFM Holley cores.

They just need float bowls and recoloring.




Ed Jenkins

Ford Galaxie Club of America member #3350
1966 Galaxie 500 Convertible built in Chicago Illinois, will have a 390, trick C6, Crites Aluminum radiator, California rear floor pan, and a rust free frame from the south. Work continues.

Please visit and revisit the Carb Forum athttp://network54.com/forum/88781

 
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John Bednorz
(Login 68RCodeConv)
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I've run both...

March 8 2011, 8:59 AM 

and I'm just not the kind of guy that wants to fiddle with a carb. Sure you can get max performance out of a Holley but are you going to notice it on the street? Most people can't tell the .2 of a second you are talking about - you have to go to the dragstrip to find out.

I dropped a 750 Edelbrock on my 347 SMF. Was surging a little in cruising mode so I dropped in a different set of metering rods. Took all of 60 seconds. That is all I have had to do to it. It pulls really strong, idles great, never leaks, never had to touch it again. Probably costing me that .2 but I would rather have the above attributes.

Same story on the stock 351C in my 73 Mustang. Let the Holley sit for a couple of months and it would start leaking when I would fire it up. Edelbrock took care of that.

Only problem with an Edebrock is that they will boil out the fuel easier than a Holley. Insulating spacer is a must.

 
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Wes Adams Ford428CJ
(Select Login ford428cj)
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I wouldnt bother with an Ed Carb~

March 8 2011, 9:13 AM 

I have played with both. Hands down for Holley! Easy to tune and they are reliable for sure. I ran a moded 750DP for years as a daily driver with adjust-a-jets on it. Worked very well indeed.

600VS will work just fine. If your wanting the the power, then step up to a 750DP or a 750VS. JMHO

"The Poor Mans 427"
http://www.fordification.com/poormans427.htm

"The F.E. Wiki Home"
http://fordfe.wetpaint.com/

[linked image]
Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
03 F-250 Crew Cab 4x4 6.0 and 35's
64 Falcon 428FE
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with 428FE
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

 
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Tom V
(Login thomas11)
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Rebuild Kits

March 8 2011, 9:42 AM 

I've heard about QFT rebuild kits, are these the preferred kits for a 3310? Or, is it best to get the Holley 37-754? I had read in a Holley Rebuild book that the Trick Kit for it is 37-921 but I dont find it in the HOlley or Summit site.
Thanks,
Tom

 
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DaveMcLain
(Login DaveMcLain)
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Carburetor Choice

March 8 2011, 10:15 AM 

If I were building a basically stock Ford 390 I would say that a 625cfm Carter would be a good choice.

Back a few years ago I built a Ford 460 for my pickup and it was a mostly stock build. I ran it on the dyno and tested it with a Holley 750 vacuum, a Competition Series Thermoquad, the stock Holley and a 625cfm Carter. ALL carburetors were with 6 horsepower and 6lbs/ft.

I didn't know a carburetor had a way of telling what brand of engine it was bolted to anyway....


 
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(Login BattlestarGalactic)
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Kinda like OEM's...

March 8 2011, 11:01 AM 

Ford, chevy, Mopar. They all make motors and they all make HP, but it all depends on your pick of favorite.

LarryK

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]
1964 Galaxie 2dr 390/6-71/4spd
1964 Country Sedan Wagon 428/5spd
1969 F100 428/4spd
1989 F100 302/AOD
1959 B Model Mack

 
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(Login RM428)
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Re: Kinda like OEM's...

March 8 2011, 11:25 AM 

Yeah, and even though Chevys used Quadrajets, and MoPar used Carters on much of their "bread & butter" stuff, they went with Holleys on their better performance stuff.

428 powered Fairmont drag car, Best ET:10.03@132.11MPH, best 60 ft: 1.29
59 Meteor 2 dr. sedan 332, Ford O Matic
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4speed

 
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Bill Ballinger
(Login 65F2504X4)

I am with you on that

March 8 2011, 9:47 PM 

I am running an 800 cfm Carterbrock (1.75 throttle bores) with 750 secondary venturis with the pullover enrichment with the restrictor tubes pulled. The primary boosters have been drilled slightly to allow more fuel and I did some deburring all over to get some things out of the way. I also lightened the counterweight on the airdoor to where you can't even feel it come on the secondary, just watch the speedo winding up. It has a high capacity acc pump with a larger feed to fill it and large needle and seats. I drilled the emulsion tubes to liven up the idle circuit but it is still 1.25 turns out. The needles and jets are perfectly matched as are the springs. And it can sit for 3 months and fire right up. Put some fresh gas in it and after a day or so it will take whatever you throw at it.

Its a good carb, it isn't out of the box, I put a lot of thought into it and did quite a bit of modifying, but it is as close to fuel injection as a carb can get. I am sure a 950HP ( 750 DP with an 850 base) would blow it away, but this thing is pretty easy to live with. With my wife doing the piloting chores, it might be the best choice. To each his own. To me a carb is a bucket full of holes, and you have to understand all of them to get the best out of it.

 
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Royce
(Login RoyceP)
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Typically the Holley is more efficient, makes more power on less fuel

March 9 2011, 7:29 AM 

For example the "Bauxite Bomber" 427 engine built by Edelbrock for Super Ford magazine was more efficient (lower BSFC per HP) while making more power at any RPM point when they switched from a Edelbrock carb to a Holley double pumper. It made something like 20 ft/lb of torque more at every RPM point while consuming less fuel per horsepower, yielding a higher volumetric efficiency (VE).

A clear picture of just how shitty the Edelbrock / Carter product really is, aside from having the fuel inlet in the wrong place and throttle linkage that is crap.

[linked image]
1912 Model T Ford touring Salmon (ugh!)
1913 Model T Ford Touring original Black paint
1915 Model T Ford Roadster Black
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1967 Cougar GT 390 Cardinal Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
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True. See complete Bauxite Bomber article here.....

March 9 2011, 11:18 AM 


 
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(Login RM428)
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Re: Rebuild Kits

March 8 2011, 11:20 AM 

Another vote for Holleys. As for a Holley needing constand fiddling, I don`t buy that. I run a 450 cfm Holley 4 barrel on my 74 F350`s 390. I put a Holley rebuild kit in it when I first freshened & installed the 390 about 20 years ago, and in that time, I have had the front float bowl off twice, and only because some water & crap got into the carb due to a pinhole in the fuel filler neck. Cleaned it out, and it`s been running fine. On my 428 Fairmont, I have been using the same 3310-1 780 Holley for over 20 years, and again, I kitted the carb many years ago, and have not had to mess around with it. Both vehicles sit from October until race season starts again in April, and sitting 6 or 7 months seems to cause no problems. I have only owned 1 Edelbrock carb, a 1406, that I bought to put on the F350, in an attempt to get a bit better gas mileage. The Edelbrock stayed on for a couple of months, it didn`t idle as nice as the Holley, had noticably less power, had mushy part throttle action,and the mileage was no better. I was happy to see it leave my life via a Craigslist ad after the Holley went back on.Over the decades I`ve had dozens of daily drivers, weekend toys, and race cars, and they have all had Holleys, and maybe I`ve been lucky, but I haven`t had a turd Holley yet. Other than some smogger 351s in the early 70`s, virtually every factory high performance Ford V8 has come from the factory with Holley carburation, right thru 1985.

428 powered Fairmont drag car, Best ET:10.03@132.11MPH, best 60 ft: 1.29
59 Meteor 2 dr. sedan 332, Ford O Matic
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4speed

 
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(Login Galaxie)
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Yes I do rebuild them........

March 8 2011, 11:43 AM 

......email sent.

Ed Jenkins

Ford Galaxie Club of America member #3350
1966 Galaxie 500 Convertible built in Chicago Illinois, will have a 390, trick C6, Crites Aluminum radiator, California rear floor pan, and a rust free frame from the south. Work continues.

Please visit and revisit the Carb Forum athttp://network54.com/forum/88781

 
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(Login Galaxie)
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I'd say 650-780 CFM would work well........

March 8 2011, 11:54 AM 

Id stay away from double pumpers carbs in that Galaxie, it's too heavy for them in my opinion.

I'm builing a simmilar engine for my 66 Galaxie but with a Lunati 62002 cam and C6 trans. I plan to run a vacuum secondary Holley 780 on it.

Ed Jenkins

Ford Galaxie Club of America member #3350
1966 Galaxie 500 Convertible built in Chicago Illinois, will have a 390, trick C6, Crites Aluminum radiator, California rear floor pan, and a rust free frame from the south. Work continues.

Please visit and revisit the Carb Forum athttp://network54.com/forum/88781

 
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(Login 65F2504X4)

It depends on much it sits around. An Edel will tolerate sitting more.

March 8 2011, 6:01 PM 

The way the float bowls are, they are both always being refreshed as it runs, unlike a Holley that can get stale secondaries unless you have a 4 corner idle. They don't leak either. A Holley is better the more often you drive it, if it sits long there are quite a few things that will act up. An Edel will get sticky needle and seats if it sits long, but a couple of bumps with a hammer handle in the rear of the bowl will usually flush them out. A Holley it is best to keep rubber o-rings for the needle and seats, and a new gasket for the adjustment, its easier to just pull them and clean them with carb cleaner put on a new o-ring and gasket and move on. Many have been overtightened, especially the accelerator pump. If it is dripping, just pull the carb and regasket it, don't tighten it. The fuel is hard on gaskets now, I hope they get some better material soon. I have a 750 downleg DP I want to use. My stuff sits so much that they have Edels/Carters on them. If you precisely work them they deliver some stout performance with a little modification. I have done a lot of them over the years, so they don't bother me to tune. I can get alot out of one with my pin drills and springs.

Also in some Holleyrebuilds folks don't get all of the crud from the old gasket out of the power valve hole and will ruin the new gasket, or even leave it out. It is best to get it really clean and use a sheet of glass to lay each sealing surface on, you will find warp, and of pieces of crud you missed or gouges. A short pass on the belt sander will clean it. Power valve gaskets are kind of like a plugged pilot jet on a lawn mower, intermittent driveability problems. That is the first place I look. Float adjustment with today's gas is tricky too if you catch the weather right, ie summer gas in cold weather, and vice versa. The Carter doen't seem as sensitive to it.

 
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(Login werbyford)
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"Both! But dont bother about the bread, please!"

March 9 2011, 9:29 AM 

That is a Pooh quote, some of us are old enough to remember it.

Seriously, both.
* James and a couple others hit it just as I would have. I've done a lot of carb shootouts, the Carter/Edel has actually eeked out a win in a couple of the shootouts, but usually it is one Holley or another that wins by a couple tenths (two carlengths or so).

But for mileage, I've never had a Holley that won a mileage contest, even one that was potty trained, and many are not.

For your car and planned use, I'd run either a 600/625 Carter/Edel (same carb AFAIK), or a 600cfm Autolite 4300 (but most of those are old, dirty, AND hard to work on) or a kinda small 500cfm 1.12 Autolite 4100 even. (those will actually keep their value the best if you want to resell it someday).

As far as used carbs, my biggest problem is not disassy/assy, it's dirt/crud. Dried gas, possum exrement, something gets in all the passages so the trick is to get it out. IMHO the easiest to clean the crud out of are:
Carter/Edel
Autolite 4100
Holley
Autolite 4300 (very sensitive to crud and hard to clean)

The smoothest running carb I have (also a shootout winner) is an old cruddy looking 1406 Edel. I looked inside and thought, uh-oh, Parts Carb. Quick disasssy and cleanup and a $10 accel pump, ran great.

For summer fun, try a double pumper Holley and blast away, just make sure the gas stations are nearby.


    
This message has been edited by werbyford on Mar 9, 2011 9:40 AM


 
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(Login Falcon67)
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One more to consider

March 9 2011, 1:28 PM 

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Brand/Summit-Racing/Product-Line/Summit-Racing-Street-Strip-Carburetors/?autoview=SKU

This is an old Holley design that is like a cross between a Ford 4100 and a Holley. Uses Holley parts for the most part, with big annular discharge boosters like a 4100. 600 vacuum, 750 vacuum and 750 DP.

1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
Owner built, owner abused.

 
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(Login cyclone03)
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I ran one of the Holleys years ago....

March 9 2011, 2:32 PM 

it worked well but did not like under hood heat.

It work great on my hood scooped Comet but hated life on my closed hood Mustang.

Not real tunable beyond jetting and power valves so if you have more than about 210-215@.050" cam it may be a little tough to tune.

 
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