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FE 390 375 hp?

December 19 2011 at 6:29 AM
  (Login endeavour32)
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Hi guys, first post here. I've dug around in this site but I'm not finding the answers to what I want to do. I've got a 69 Mustang that I'm putting a 390 in. The 390 is out of a 66 T-Bird. First I'll let you know what parts I have and then what I would like to do.
Heads: C7EA-A
Intake: S code
Carb: Factory replacement Holley 600

I would like to get this engine up to around 375 HP if possible more if I can but I don't want to replace the heads or replace all the valve with CJ valves unless I have to. I do plan on replacing the cam, springs ect in the valvetrain as well as using Sanderson shorty headers. So is it possible to hit 375 hp with these parts? Does bore notching work well on these engines? If I do replace all the valves what kind of gains would be seen be doing this?

Thanks!


    
This message has been edited by endeavour32 on Dec 19, 2011 7:02 AM


 
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(Login johnvermeersch501)
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Use a stroker kit.............

December 19 2011, 6:38 AM 

you need torque, not HP in the Bird, compare the costs of a straight rebuild vs a stroker kit ...

 
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(Login endeavour32)
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Re: Use a stroker kit.............

December 19 2011, 7:00 AM 

This engine is going in a '69 Mustang not a T-bird, that's what the engine is out of.. I'm not going to stroke it. I'm looking to do a low budget build for my car. A stroker kit instantly takes the budget out of this! I'm new to the FE engine base but 390 cubes should be more than enough for what I'm looking to do here. I just don't know what things do what on an FE. In the past all of my engines I've built have been BBC. On a BBC bore notching is good for 20 hp and 20 tq. Seeing that the bore on the 390 is so tiny it would see similar gains.


    
This message has been edited by endeavour32 on Dec 19, 2011 7:01 AM


 
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(Login N69MF)
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375 HP from a 390 should be pretty easy

December 19 2011, 7:14 AM 

I would think if you used some of the early tall port heads with a little clean up in the intake and exhaust ports (C6AER, C4AEG or C1AEG) for example. You need to figure out your headers or exhaust before you pick your heads though, because you may need a specific range of heads for your exhaust manifolds. Then add a Comp 282S solid lifter cam and pay attention to the deck height so you get a nice tight quench and about 9.8 to 10.5-1 static compression you're going be in the 375-400 HP neighborhood. Then, the biggest thing to do is make sure you have a good set of headers and non restrictive mufflers. Gear it right and you'll have a 396 killer on your hands.

If you use a solid lifter cam, you're going to need some adjustable rockers and with a 282 cam you're on the edge of needing end stands for your rocker arm shafts.

Then there's the oiling mods you can do...

It never ends, so really it's going to depend on how much money and time you want to spend compared to how much HP you want to make.

I built a 496" FE that made 644 HP on the dyno, but there are very few stock Ford parts involved.

Kerry

 
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(Login werbyford)
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VERY interested in the bore notching +20hp

December 19 2011, 10:57 AM 

IF U can supply a link or specs of those Rat tests.
I was involved in a 6-cyl 250 Chev dyno series and we think we saw similar gains due to bore notching (about 5%) but no exact back-to-back test so it is just a guess at this point.

I wonder if anybody here has ever compared bore notching a 390, it is true the exhaust valve is awfully close to the wall.

 
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(Login endeavour32)
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Re: VERY interested in the bore notching +20hp

December 19 2011, 3:31 PM 

I don't have any dyno testing. I built a 530 hp roller BBC 427 for my boat last year and my cam designer, engine builder and head porter all said that bore notching was good for 15-30 hp. Thats with a 4.31 bore. The 390 bore is tiny in comparison so I would think it would see similar gains. It cost about $75 to have done and its the best bang for your buck you can do. You don't find many people talking about this, but it seems all the professional guys highly suggest this is done.


    
This message has been edited by endeavour32 on Dec 19, 2011 3:32 PM


 
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Blair Patrick
(Login CaptCobrajet)
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Notching................

December 19 2011, 11:59 PM 

can help some, but not as much as it helps a BBC surprisingly. The canted valve comes at the bore from an angle, and knocking the "edge" of the bore off at the deck helps them at low lift points, where they usually suck anyway. As the valve opens, it gets farther away from the cylinder wall restriction. On an FE the notching can sometimes cause turbulence right around .600 lift. If you have a cam smaller than that, it can help you. About 60 degrees for an angle, but don't get into the top ring travel. You need a really good low-lift FE valve job for the parts you listed. You can make it flow great to about .350 lift.......alot better than a BBC, with any of the iron heads. It takes a big bore and the higher end FE heads to flow with a BBC past .350 lift, but with most street cams, that is the meat of the camshaft anyway.

By the time you turn the crank, buy rod bolts, resize the rods, etc., the stroker is not as far away as you think. If this is your first FE, be careful with the oiling and the rod bearings. It ain't no BBC. Size the rods on the "low" and turn the crank to fit it. You need .0025 to .0028 clearance for a 6000 rpm deal to be safe with a narrow bearing and large journal. Hold the bearing tight in the rod with the tight crush and it helps, but it will close up the clearance, so you have to turn the crank to fit it. Rod bearings killed many an FE "back in the day". Love them as I do, you have to do that just right. Others here will agree...........

Blair Patrick

 
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(Login endeavour32)
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Good info

December 20 2011, 5:47 AM 

Thanks for the info. That was some good advice! I'll look into a stroker and see, I'm not going to be penny wise and a pound foolish. On the same hand I want to set a budget and stick to it. On my chevy 427 I started out with a $4000 budget when I was done I was at $10,000. Yes I had a killer engine in the end but I cannot afford to go that route again. I would really just like to make this engine perform with a stock 428 Mustang. I'm not looking to have the fastest car on the block.

 
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michael
(Login phonedude)
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some readings

December 19 2011, 7:17 AM 


 
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Jason Engle
(Login jakengle)
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my opinion...

December 19 2011, 8:26 AM 

To answer your question directly, it will be a bit of a stretch to make it to 375 horsepower with those heads and valves and no porting. The s code intake and 600 holley are also going to limit you. More importantly, if you chase the HP number you will missing the point of what makes a combo like yours fast---TORQUE.

Those heads will make good torque the way they are, so if you are determined not to switch heads or go with bigger valves and some port work, then plan your build around solid low and mid range torque and figure on it being all done by about 5000 rpm. Run a 3.50 rear and 2200 converter with a Comp 268H cam.

If you do that you can make it surprisingly fast and also really fun on the street. That combo is also low buck (stock rockers, etc) and most versatile since the gears won't make it miserable on the highway.

[img][linked image][/img]


    
This message has been edited by jakengle on Dec 19, 2011 8:28 AM


 
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(Login endeavour32)
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Re: my opinion...

December 19 2011, 3:24 PM 

Thanks for info! I'm not saying I NEED to have 375 hp its just a number. I want to optimize what I have. I may put a blue thunder intake on and I'm certainly not opposed to using a differnt carb. What I don't want to do is stroke it, or use aftermarket heads or spend a ton on porting and new valves. I'm ok with some pocket porting if you guys think its money well spent. I understand I'm limited as to what kind of power I can make but this car will most likely never see the drag strip. Has anyone used Cam Research. I've read a few good things about their cams. One thing I would have no problem doing is spending the money on a custom cam. No rollers but a nice hyd flat tappet cam.


    
This message has been edited by endeavour32 on Dec 19, 2011 3:25 PM


 
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Wes Adams Ford428CJ
(Select Login ford428cj)
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Your going to need~

December 19 2011, 8:36 AM 

2.09 & 1.65 Valves with a cast iron CJ intake or a PI with at least 10to1 compression. I would run a Roller cam if it was me. You should be able to make that kind of power without a stroker kit. Just dont know about the 600 on top.... I would run 735 CJ type carb if it was me. JMHO

"The F.E. Wiki Home"
http://fordfe.wetpaint.com/

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Wes Adams FORD428CJ
Built Ford Tuff With Good Ford Stuff
03 F-250 Crew Cab 4x4 6.0 and 35's
64 Falcon 428FE
55 FORD Truck 4-link Rides on air with 428FE
2000 Yamaha V-MAX VMOA#4277
2000 Yamaha 700 Mountain Max
2001 Polaris 600 Edge X
2001 Polaris 500 SP

http://www.facebook.com/HillsideAuto1

 
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(Login endeavour32)
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Roller Cam

December 20 2011, 4:47 AM 

A roller cam would be nice and make more power but I'm not going to be racing this car and I have no intererst spending the kind of money needed to do so. I also have two Chevy 454's that I have to rebuild for my boat so my budget is limited.

 
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(Login Barry_R)
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Pretty much agree

December 20 2011, 6:52 AM 

It was pointed out that pricing was not appropriate for the tech forum - so I moved that response over to the Classifieds.

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com


    
This message has been edited by Barry_R on Dec 20, 2011 11:15 AM


 
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Blair Patrick
(Login CaptCobrajet)
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Looks exactly like...................

December 20 2011, 8:21 AM 

an advertisement to me, Barry. No personal offense intended, but others get grilled on here for posting info like you did outside of the classified section. Several of us sell "stroker kits" that frequent the forum, and as one of those guys, I will not post pricing of products or services I sell on the main page here. I usually prefer email when it comes to pricing, but that is just how I do it. No doubt your info was true and correct, but self serving as you said, was an absolute. I attempted to help steer the guy in the right direction without a sales pitch. If Doug, Keith, Brent, Blair, Barry, and others who are in business all posted like you did, this forum would not be a forum..........it would be a free ad site.

Blair Patrick

 
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Barry R
(Login Barry_R)
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Yeah - you're right

December 20 2011, 11:08 AM 

I thought general pricing would be useful for comparison sake - but i will pull it from here and move it to the classifieds.

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

 
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Blair Patrick
(Login CaptCobrajet)
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Hey Barry.............

December 20 2011, 4:12 PM 

Like I said, nothing personal........I would have called anyone out the same, and if I did it, I would expect one of you guys to say something to me also. You fixed it.......Merry Christmas from Dixie!

Blair Patrick

 
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Barry R
(Login Barry_R)
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Same back at you

December 20 2011, 7:16 PM 

Merry Christmas to you down there - - ya want me to box up some snow for you?
Has not really started yet but I'm sure I could find you some.

You gonna do the EMC this year - the street category is singing your tune - 400+ cid, 10.5:1, hydraulics, dual plane intake and 1.750 throttle bore. You could almost pluck the motor out of your car....

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

 
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Blair Patrick
(Login CaptCobrajet)
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Thinking about it...............

December 21 2011, 8:09 PM 

I've been slammed for about two years, but I've finally found a top notch machinist to help in here, added some equipment, and can see daylight! I need to look at the rules, but I think I have some junk here that might make a showing.

Blair Patrick

 
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Barry R
(Login Barry_R)
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Be good to see you

December 22 2011, 10:34 AM 

Just bought a bunch of equipment - SV-10, CH-100, and the DTS pupm is almost ready for noise!

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

 
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(Login ECTARACER)
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Since Ford offered....

December 20 2011, 10:41 AM 

a 390 engine making 375 HP, it should be simple to see what the development engineers thought was necessary to generate that sort of power. And instead of trying to list it all here, may I suggest a quick google---I believe Wikipedia should give you an overview. You'll find that it takes sufficient intake flow, enough exhaust flow, and an ignition capable of lighting the whole thing off at the correct time. You can do it with factory parts, or even easier with the correct selection of aftermarket pieces.

You will easily exceed your goals with a stroker package. I note that Barry has gone to the trouble of listing some prices---but there are several others here who offer the same pieces and it's unlikely that the prices from one vendor to another will vary wildly so please look on the specific information above as being more in the nature of a generality. You'll find all here to be VERY willing to be helpful!

KS


    
This message has been edited by ECTARACER on Dec 21, 2011 10:14 AM


 
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Ted E.
(Login tedeaton)
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375 horsepower is a reasonable target.

December 20 2011, 3:17 PM 

Earlier in the year, I did a rebuild of a '64 model 390 with C4AE-G heads and lowered the compression ratio down to 9.0:1 using +030 over 13cc dished cast pistons and 76cc's on the heads. With a 270 adv / 216 @ 050 / 108 lobe center Isky hydraulic camshaft, this engine was broken in on the dyno where it made 351HP at 5200 rpms. This engine wasn't taken any higher than this but was still climbing at that point. The torque was 420 ft/lbs at 3100 rpms. All this with the '64 factory cast iron intake, the factory 1" heated carb spacer, and a 625cfm Road Demon Jr. carb. So with just a little head work and tweaking, 375HP is well within reach and still run on swill for fuel.

Ted Eaton www.eatonbalancing.com

Fe's are a thrill a second when they run mid eights but Y-Blocks are just plain fun when they run 8.80's at 145mph in the quarter using a vacuum secondary carb.

 
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rcodecj
(Login rcodecj)
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Headers or exhaust manifolds? N/M

December 20 2011, 5:33 PM 



1969 Mach1, 428cj, ram air, C6
1967 mustang coupe 460, C6

 
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(Login tedeaton)
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Headers with full exhaust system and mufflers. n/m

December 21 2011, 5:56 AM 

n/m

Ted Eaton www.eatonbalancing.com

Fe's are a thrill a second when they run mid eights but Y-Blocks are just plain fun when they run 8.80's at 145mph in the quarter using a vacuum secondary carb.

 
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(Login Timmy390)
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Hot Rod Jan 03 issue

December 21 2011, 10:08 AM 

Not saying it's true but the info was published and is out there.

In the January '03 issue of HOT ROD magazine, we reviewed the parts needed to build a pump-gas, 9.68:1-compression 390 Ford that makes 450 hp at 5,600 rpm and 460 lb-ft at 3,900. The combo included out-of-the-box Edelbrock Performer FE cylinder heads, an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold, and a Crane hydraulic roller cam with 222/228 degrees of duration at 0.050 and 0.584/0.604 lift. The bottom-end was basic Federal-Mogul hard parts, including PN L2291F-030 forged pistons, and we fastened the entire engine with top-quality stuff from ARP.

I based my build off this. Bored 40 over, deck cut to zero, ditched the roller and went with the Crane 802 hydraulic, Holley 770, Hooker SC headers and went full MSD.

My 69 Mach 1 had to have picked up a few HP's with this build over stock............

Tim

 
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(Login Barry_R)
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I supplied the F-M parts for that build

December 21 2011, 2:29 PM 

In my opinion the power stated "did not happen".... I've dyno'd a over half dozen similar builds and never even came close.

Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

 
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Mike T
(Login endeavour32)
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Re: FE 390 375 hp?

December 21 2011, 4:52 PM 

Thanks for all the info guys!

 
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