Bought a MT Cross Ram Intake atSeptember 16 2012 at 6:53 PM
|FERoadster (Login FERoadster)|
a real good price but won't pick it up until Oct. 1. I realize thet the MT did not perform that well in Jay B's book but they are period correct.
The intake has carbs and linkage but the seller doesn't know if he has the Distributor extension.
I've got the spec's & "blue prints" to build the adapter but am thinking maybe I should have built 2 or more for future needs of others.
Does someone here have a lathe & the ability to build a couple? I'm willing to pay for time & materials.
If you will send me the drawing I will run it by Rebel George to get you an estimate
|September 16 2012, 8:07 PM |
Here's a current picture of Rebel George's 427 w/ X-Ram
Re: If you will send me the drawing I will run it by Rebel George to get you an estimate
|September 17 2012, 1:07 AM |
I'm game for one complete assembly too.
There are quite a few pictures of the extension
|September 17 2012, 1:19 PM |
by Robert (Ahola) on his photobucket account.
Search Power Ram on this site & you'll see the photos.
I e-mailed Robert today to see if he will send me the pictures and also to see if he has a drawing with spec's.
I somehow lost the Jpeg file I had but do have a paper copy that I'll dig out.
Jay Brown's book has a picture of the extension.
Thanks for the replies. I am hoping to use this as an option for my 31A roadster (fenderless)so i'll keep the weight around 2200# (on the highside).
Tom (Holman-Moody-Stroppe) where are you located?
Email me about this fast guy
|September 17 2012, 6:44 PM |
A stout FE in a 2,200 lbs car is big fun. Send me an email and we can compare notes. Be glad to help you design a really fast car as time allows. I'd love to see you in the low 8's, or quicker
Who has the fastest single carb FE right now? I last saw a quick gas dragster, a while back....just some Ford guys having a blast with a dual quad 427...3 speed B And J...2 discs. Lost the number..
What is the fastest and quickest blown gas FE out there recently?
|September 16 2012, 8:23 PM |
Howdy FE Roadster,
I don't recall this intake being so bad if you design the engine around it. If it was just plopped it on a mule, well, it was not designed for that....in fact, there were no 428s when it came out......so test it real world, and at the drags...or at high speed..in my opinion.
You can hear a drag car with a cross ram start to charge upstairs. And many guys know here, there was no such thing as a high preformance hydraulic cam back then, let alone one good enough to allow these intakes to soar upstairs..
There were shell lifters, and super light sodium filled valves.
So if Mickey made it, then,a ton of Ford race guys had input....Mickey was in the loop with Holman Moody Stroppe, Shelby and many Drag Team guys...and..he had his own Drag Strip, that ran 5 days a week...and a lot was learned..Lions' DRAG strip. a minute way from his shops, which covered several city blocks.
So it is fair to say, if you grew up going in and out of Mickey's super trick speed shop, on Santa Fe St,,,,well, his stuff was FAST...
But I thought that Detroit was originally behind this design, for the Ram Chargers ?? This intake was known as a 'Ram Charging' intake?
Remember, Ford gave Mickey 2 Boss 429 Funny Cars after all..that flew on Nitro...I'd agree with Ford in recognizing his abilty. Simply because many did...He will make anything to win..
He had an awesome guy making his parts, the Legendary Fritz Voight. If you knew how many fast cars he helped....like the first streamliner to go 409 MPH??? Mickey's blown 4 Panty Ache..(Pontiac) A bonneville record that stood for ever... Well...he had a dyno too. Fritz was a genious, and nice, quiet, humble man. He was so good,and they hand cranked all of this stuff, or sand cast it. Later, he did some investment casting.
And they raced for real records, in real championships, for history and all of the marbles, against the toughest competition that money could buy. And they usually pulled in, unloaded, and won or set a National record...
That is in some books too, and not 'Out of print' to enough of us..Maybe you had to kind of be there too..
If you lined up Mickey's trophies,and those won with some of that shops brains, or parts, well, it would be one long row of trophies...you'd lose sight of that row, as it fell off of the curvature of the earth...lol
A lot of guys went plenty fast with cross rams way back when...and track, and NHRA/AHRA class racing means something too.
So how bad is it if guys ran 9's with them since? I have helped dial these in for HEMI Darts, in the high 8's...with real low gears, and real ported heads..so?? These race tests deserve some pages in some book, somewhere, someday...to be fair.
You can go plenty fast with it, as old guys did....a lot of compression, a long duration cam, like over 310 advertised,excellent professionally ported heads....medium risers..race gas, lots of leed (advance).and a 4 speed that you can launch the car at high RPM's with, with a nice heavy flywheel,that hits the tires with a hard shock...to try to flex old hard side wall slicks...and roll couple the big boy..
This is a race piece, a lay down tunnel ram, designed for high RPM and Top End....so....it looks period, and looks cool,so have fun with it.
In the 60's, guys also ran these with aluminum rods...ansens and mickeys.
It is originally, a Doge deal, for the 413 Max Wedge factory brawls from the early 60's...and that looks cool..Then they went on the Street Hemi, the Race Hemi
They used these in NASCAR settings too...sustained high RPM...you get a big ram effect upstairs..
Sure, a modern intake could be better, but for a car trying to look 60's, modern parts can look like Tits on a Bull. You should build around this intake, like you design a tunnel ram engine for a manual trans. Give away the bottom end, for the top end..
So going retro, 60's legit is cool to plenty of guys.
And after these were raced, many guys hung them on T Buckets...to look 'in your face..', and ready to rumble...that's cool ??
I love new and hate it. I especially hate seeing a Chevy advance cannister on a Ford ....and I really don't like a modified chevy cap distributor either....unless it is a max race deal, strip only...Stuff like this offends and shocks my eyes, like a man in a speedo at the Beach...YIKES
Before I die,I am going to do a run of Ford correct advance diaprams, or show a friend how,so when you pop the hood, a Chevy part does no stare you right in the face ! It is like having a 'Bow Tie' wing nut on your Ford air cleaner to me.
I have guys find me, and try to pay me to tune their rare stuff..I rarely do it because I'd rather race or machine, or build. I got called to a car show, and checked out this guys Boss 429 69 FB...He had to have my blessing. HEre is this perfect, legit Boss 429, with the Crane style Chevy adjustable advance can. HE said...I just love my advance cannister...it's adjustable...
I said...Ford invented the adjustable cannister, and I have all of the phenolic shims for the correct Ford piece, the range of advance cannister springs, the NOS shims,etc....this one, no offense, looks like a Chevy...
He hemmed and hawed..But is the one so and so sells..big woop. .I walked away. I don't need the work..pay 100 buck for an NOS piece, this Chevy part on a Boss ofeends me.
A 150,000 car, and you can't find a NOS advance can? LOL Hate rich snobs any way...with squirell nuts.
So....Good for you....run big tube headers with it....and a long cam,,,lots of squeeze(12.5 to 1 or more), and drag some single 4 barrel guys for us. When you start marching on them in the top of 3rd,,,and show them a few fenders in the lights....well..Mickey would be proud ...what a guy.
Launch it hard as you can, stuff at least a 12'' slick there..and keep it up in the revs with low gears
If this is for that T bucket...I want it pulling the wheels...
Nice find ! Looks 60's 'wedge wars' cool....
I remember it being in Mickey's book...that is good enough for me on a retro drag mobile...or for speed and fun...
Run BIG shooters on the carbs...LOL 660 center squirters can be helpful, or just drill your squirters and use double pumpers..
I saw an offset drive a while ago, it sold for a blower guy, expensive. They were not hard to make...If I see one, I'll write.
|This message has been edited by HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on Sep 17, 2012 1:13 PM|
THE "book" is none other then Jay Brown's The Great FE Intake Comparo
|September 17 2012, 7:52 AM |
Page 152 gives a sumation of the M/T Crossram:
"This manifold did not perform well durring the dyno testing. On the 428CJ 410Hp it finished in the bottom echelon of intakes, and only finished midrange in the high-horsepower 390 stroker engine. The intake was consistantly outperformed by the Edelbrock X-ram, so as a result it was not tested on higher HP motors"
Nevertheless personally I believe IF there were a way to somehow get the A:F even to all the cylinders "hint fuel injection" and design the cam and exhaust tuning so ALL the ducks some how lined up there almost has to be some specific place on a power curve where the tuned long "ram" effect power could be awesome.
I'd recall the era, and the cars too
|September 17 2012, 8:59 AM |
Like I said,this intake went fast before 428's were made...like during the 63,4,5 era. They were used, on higher revving high compression 427's and 406's, that could spin and pull upstairs. And many of these cars were on a seroius diet, gutted, tinned, straight axles,and glass front clips.
Swapping a bunch of intakes on a specific build, only tells you what that build likes, and does not always equate to race performance at all. A combo is narrowed on a Dyno, for that head,cam,piston and valves.
A 428 with 2.09 heads, does not get down the track like a 427 with a lot bigger valve...nor does a tunnel like to be on a mild, hydraulic cam pump gas engine....these ran with pop ups, and race gas..and these guys spun them, trying to shift up high..Guys had big Crane, Howard,M/T, Isky and Engle cams and left(launched) as high as it would hook, and often spun the tire out of the hole too..
I just remeber, these intakes on fast cars, that you fought to keep the revs up on, and not bog. And they went fast for the day...
Some guys forget, that Ford handed its racers, or teams, many race parts, like 14.5 to 1 pistons for 427's. Stuff like that can be part of a dual 4 package that makes a lot more than a wee 400 ponies...It all has to be harmonized, then run.then tweaked. So I guess I kind of respect the evolution too..and if a guy wants to build a thumper, to show new guys, what old guys raced, that is cool too.
It does not even make sense to be used on a mild hydraulic cam 428 to me with no compression, let alone a flat top engine. What validity does that really have, given the race setting and context of such parts? And the era..??
So I was trying to point your thoughts toward building a race engine, not a pump gas engine, and do a real world test,in the direction of this part. I just know the potential, which is as descibed, in a race setting. Intakes like these, filled a need, and can be built around, to achieve power in a completely different way than this test tried.
You test has a one size supposedly fits all engine that is fairly just a mild single 4 barrel engine. So ya, put a tunnel on it and you are cross purposing the design criteria .
There were no larger plenum FE tunnels back then, so more than a few guys saw these old guys go plenty fast..
This intake was designed to race, and did race, and win, then, so good for Mickey and the Ford guys. This intake, on a race motor, was a step up, from any single 4 intake around then, so that helped to shift the power curve up, if you could take advantage of that, in the right car, or at sustained hi speed, that's all. It allowed, again, the FE wedges, to compete with the cross ram Dodge 413 max wedge cars, which were fast,and later the street Hemi cars.
Marrying the plenums evolved, and is much better, but you have to re dyno these up high, to learn how and where they enhanced the cylinder filling, and exceeded the average volumetric efficiency of that era...
|This message has been edited by HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on Sep 17, 2012 9:10 AM|
(Select Login Tommy-T)
Don't know alot about that "old timey" race stuff...
|September 17 2012, 9:22 AM |
...let's just say I've "walked around" a 427 or two.
I ran a M/T Power Ram on my '56 'Bird for a few years, and quite frankly, it turned out-to-be a pretty good no-fuss street intake.
BUT...my ported Streetmaster was better.
Key tips on running this thing on the street.
1: LOTS of initial advance, like 25* or so. Locked out= better.
2: 50cc accelerator pumps on the carbs. There's a HUGE plenum on BOTH sides of the engine to fill.
3: A wider lobe seperation cam helps with the reversion tendencies...like 111 or 112. I tried a cam on 108 centers...nice cloud of a/f mixture above the carbs AND on the windshield while idling. Not cool!
Gonna use this intake again on my straight-axle Cyclone project...with some plenum mods and 4 500cfm Holley 2V's.
" design the engine around it..." And there in lies the propble,,, due to its unique
|September 17 2012, 8:51 AM |
The Unique runner shapes both have good power potential, and vicious terrible reversion waves inside and understanding that (or getting it right by hit or miss) is the problem.. Most engines, most heavy cars can't use that intake.
now with gears and a mustang, or better yet, a FE-Roadster, maybe the light low end will work.
1964 Galaxie 4Dr Sedan, 289, 3spd 303 (originally w/ Overdrive)
1967 416 "390 GT", BIBO Wide R TL
1968 428, CJ heads, Gal Wide R TL
A Bicycle or two as my daily driver - real gas saver.
Re: " design the engine around it..." And there in lies the propble,,, due to its unique
|September 18 2012, 9:09 PM |
Its all in getting a proper camshaft and headers. (Wave Tuning)
The old grinds just arent up to the task.
The block adapter isn't the issue, it's easily machined.
|September 17 2012, 8:14 AM |
I machined mine on a buddy's Atlas lathe and pressed in two donor OE distributor housing bushings in the top & bottom of the aluminum spud for longevity. The main issue is designing & building an intermediate drive assembly using a shortened/modified stock gear/shaft assembly between the cam & the distributor, it's tricky but it can be done. A machined stock dist. housing is used to fit the M/T distributor tube. Make sure you drill some sort of oil lube hole in the spud and orientate it so's some front drain back oil can lube the spud. Good luck.
Mickey drive front cover
|September 17 2012, 9:20 AM |
That sounds good, and we saw a lot of them. He cast his rough parts at Buddy Bar in LA, and had a bunch of fixtures for many exotic parts
I recall seeing these also running with the MT front cover, that hung the Mag, or Distributor, in front, driven off of the front of the cam sprocket, hanging sideways, at about 30 degrees from plumb,down low on the drivers side of the car. Mickey had this cover on his Gas Dragsters. There were a lot of fast blown gas FE's back then. For carbs, you ran a block off where the injector pump flange is.
I think that I sometimes have to do these posts, just say thanks to all of those guys for trying so much, and for being so ingenious..like, we will try, and prototype anything, to win. I loved the innovation and hard work.
No kidding, seriously, we kicked around using that intake , later,with a 4-71 and a flange, on each mounting pad..for Bonneville....LOL !! The drive was too long...we kicked around a shaft, with power take off pulley, to handle the mismatch..then a simple front drive, in captured bearings saddles. That would have gotten some heads a scratchin''...NHRA would have probably never bought it, but on an outlaw, or the salt....that would have pushed some pistons...LOL
|This message has been edited by HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on Sep 17, 2012 9:29 AM|
Keep it up Tom!
|September 17 2012, 10:09 AM |
I get a huge kick out of your posts. The ol' west coast race lingo. Tried & True innovations that took place there, back in the good ol' days, is what made me want to go there as a participant. The west coast happenings didn't take long to reach Texas. Though we did & do have innovative racers here. It just seemed to have happened there first. The crazy , wild Fuel Altereds and sky high Gassers, then the altered wheelbase factory cars! Whew! I miss those days. Prudhome/Dyno Don,Big John Mazmanian, too many others to remember. I never missed seeing them when they came to town.Dynos Comet hdtp was on display in the showroom of our local Mercury dealership. 2 friends and I went to check it out. I sat in it, (sign says dont touch) I went through the gears and locked em' up. Scared me to death, so we left. On the next day (Sunday) Dyno was late showing up at the track. I blamed myself for that, but shortly thereafter, here he comes(no problems), and put on a helluva good show. Thanks, Leland
Leland,you are the "Man'
|September 17 2012, 11:06 AM |
Well hello there....your post cracked me up and is kind, thank you. The lingo thing...you just grow up with it from the racers around you I guess..LOL rack speak out here I guess..Dragster talk...but real common with Crew Chiefs from then...and later. I use the brackets if I think I am going to confuse anybody.
Honest, I just want to help Ford guys go faster and put the present, in the context of the past...if it helps build a better piece
OK, I'll share this about Dyno Don, and one of his crew chiefs and I were talking about this just last week...remebering a fine guy
Don's first shop, was a body shop. And he was a very skilled metal man. When he did his altered wheelbase cars, he amazed a lot of guys, because he looked at the rear quarters, and said, sure, we can move the axle up, easy....watch this.
And he would just lay it out,make the template,revise the opening, patch the prior area,hammer weld and file it, anneal it, and hand form some really nice fender flare lips, with his hammers, and a buck( Heavy steel tools, with different shapes, that you hold in your left hand, behind the sheet metal, as your shape the outside, with a body hammer). He could mmmentally figure out the amount of metal, needed to pull up and in to the lip of the flare..and it would look 'puss'.
He was really good at making pretty panels, not just a bondo build up.
People who knew this about him, would send him really rare museum hot rods, from NHRA displays and collections. He would call me from time to time, to come look at stuff besides engines, or for the races. This was because my brother won Oakland enough times, to have trick paint sources and color match techniques for deep candies, lacquers, etc...in the 90's.
He had this huge race shop behind his home,a big area, all concrete, with service bays, hot tank, machine shop, flow bench,engine room,and all of these rare parts.....and a dedicated paint booth too...LOL. He was a really good metal man and painter. Try to do a spot job on a show car with candy or metal flake paint that is ancient.
I saw him spotting in some really rare drag cars, that had been hurt, on display, or transport. Metal flake. Candy A/FX cars for example. 20-30 color sanded coats style cars. He was good, and would build ,sand, build, sand, built, sand, build, sand and then do the acid test. Pull it out into the sun, compare the color, then inside, then at night under the lights.
As for sitting in his race car, he was a really nice guy, and very kind to aspiring racers. Very humble, and funny as heck. I'd bet that had he caught you in his car that day, he would have laughed and said...That's fine, do you want to race one some day? Well you can do it ! And he would say to a friend, a kid snuck into my car, you should have seen the smile on his face ! That's fine, he ain't gonna hurt it,but I might ! Then he would go right back to thinking about speed..and making more power...
We talked about the thinking there,another story for later. The idea kind of came from guys going faster, heavier, with lead shot ballast bars on the rear bumper brackets. Those got banned, so move the axle forward, to put more weight on the rear tires, and enhance roll couple, and weight transfer....due to hard side wall tires. They looked cool too...so Drag dedicated ! He said that you had to get used to the sway of those cars on the big end, which makes sense, the rear mass has a pendulum effect...
And I must also say, Don had the most wonderful, sweet, kind,understanding, pretty and devoted wife. Just as sweet as could be, always. She would sit all day and night in his push truck, and just wait patiently. A nicer lady you'd never meet. She enjoyed seeing Don have fun at the track. He would just smile and smile and smile.
As I said, anybody close to him concluded,he could drive,,,,and he could feel little things in a race car that surprised the heck out of people. He could listen, and feel little things like few can..many said.
I was at Pomona with him one year, when Warren Johnson was winning due to Chevy pouring millions into his team..Dyno came over to say hi to Warren...and Kurt decided to start lecturing Don about Don's this or that being 'junk'. Don just smiled and laughed, and said,'' well, me and your dad were there,I was winning Championships in 62,and it worked for me''. 'Where is your Dad?'' I said....Shaking my head and laughing...''you know, besides winning Pro Stock on a limited budget..he kind of invented the flip top funny car...? " " I respect that?'' Well, he laughed and was really uptight, mean spirited and disrespectful. Don and I talked more...''Can you believe this kids arrogance?'' ''I didn't have Daddy handing me race cars??'' We laughed
Then we lamented Ford not stayng cutting edge in Pro Stock..Glidden was about a tenth behind,and needed something to beat the Big Chief and Roll over Pontiac heads we thought..they just needed to spend more money on Drags, and less on Cup.
At the next race, at Firebird Phoenix, in the right lane, during qualifying..Kurt ran his Pro Stock off of the big end of the track,The Royal Purple car, and balled it up completely and ruined it bad. He was fine, I was happy he walked away.....but I called Don when I got back. He laughed his ass off when I described what the car did, watching it roll end over end, way up in the air,and where the mistakes were made, and how the car ended up in the desert....holding a 'yard sale'. (That is race talk for when you wreck the car, and scatter the parts all over the place...like junk laid out for a yard sale)
He laughed, well, I never did that, he sure is cocky..oh well...Daddy will build him a new one'' I like Warren....
I just saw some irony there...like the Race Gods schooling a kid maybe..This wreck was very hush hush by the way, and not on TV, or in National Dragster if I recall. They just pulled out a spare...
This prior Pomona race really sticks in my mind for a really sad reason too. I had lunch with Neil Bonnet who Earnhart had just put back in a competitive car. We talked about his next race days later. He was pretty nervous,and did not seem comfortable about it. That was striking to me, so I just said, aw ...you are the best, you'll do great. He had concern in his eyes that is kind of haunting to this day. "Well Dale wants me to do this, and that, but it has been a while, and these new cars are different, and fast,they take a while to learn, and I need to jump into it in a few days...I am not sure that I am ready...''
I just listened, as we waited in line to eat Bar B Q . He was a really good man...and kind, and humble. This still bothers me,bad at times, like in these posts...because sadly...he got killed qualifying and practicing, just days later.
I hope that when race teams, or past racers, get dissed here, and other guys elect to say thanks for trying, and competing, and putting your life on the line to learn..maybe I am different. I value past efforts and respect them.
RIP Don Nicholson..I want to shake the hand of any guy who tried harder for Ford, or who was braver..or more innovative.
RIP Mickey Thompson...who might hjave kicked just about any body's ass for talking trash....LOL He had a HOT temper...and a SHARP tongue...I saw him deck guys...cold...just had to add some color..to recall his energy I guess...and zeal to win..
RIP a fine, fast man, Neil Bonnet...what a shame....so sorry for all involved...another legend...lost to racing...but not forgotten..
There was a guy who showed us a Slot Car Track of Riverside a while back. I posted something funny, slot cars were cool...fun....sorry we lost the track. A night later, I woke up in a sweat and nightmare. I had forgotten,and felt horrible, we lost a fine Ford team racer there...he died due to NASCAR making a dumb mistake....leaving a push truck in a spin off area...so these posts are fun, but I chose to respect the fast guys we lost too.
Sorry to get dark, but I repect the guys who went fast, for life, and who we might all take a lesson from...
Thanks kindly. No offense intended to anybody..
Leland, I have no doubt that Don would have enjoyed having you on his crew..
And on the point of fast Texans, you guys are tough ! Foyt? Gene Snow ? Billy Meyer...and on and on and on. The Texan..Reher Morrison? Earl Wade...RIP. You guys sure have talent.
Billy Meyer used to show up at these Cavalcade of Funny Cars races, with the world's fastest guys, and fly in the 70's. And he had these gorgeous, wicked fast cars....with no sponsors or stickers on them..Just gorgeous deep candy...and his name. Too cool.
Then he built the first all concrete super track...later...awesome..just to advance the sport...in Ennis..
Sure enough, you guys have alaways been FAST...just like guys trying hard elsewhere.
|This message has been edited by HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on Sep 17, 2012 3:14 PM|
(Select Login Tommy-T)
|September 17 2012, 2:32 PM |
...that it's Kansas John Wiebe.
Is he OK?
|September 17 2012, 2:49 PM |
You are probably right, what happened to John Wiebe ? He sure was fast? 6.17 way back at the end of front motored Dragsters...wish that record was with a SOHC....maybe some day in Nostalgia.
|This message has been edited by HolmanMoodyStroppeVet on Sep 17, 2012 3:10 PM|
I'd be interested in one...
|September 17 2012, 10:14 AM |
if this happens, post something