So, I was bragging on the FE's power compared to the BBC...April 19 2017 at 5:23 AM
|EricD (Login EricDonaldson)|
and my argument was that the FE will give up a little because it was developed 7-8 years earlier but will be in the fight, inch for inch. Has anyone compared them on a dyno at say 396, 427, or 455?
Pretty close on factory stuff....
|April 19 2017, 6:17 AM |
I've done the 427FE and 428CJ vs. 427 BBC and they were within 5-10 hp and 5-10 lb-ft of each other, both with factory heads, similar hydraulic roller camshafts, etc.
Aftermarket stuff is a different story though.
BBC Canted valves
|April 19 2017, 6:54 AM |
I love my FEs and wouldn't trade the for a rat for anything, but tipping the valves is an advantage that is hard to overcome
BBF - 429/460
|April 19 2017, 7:13 AM |
One can easily build a 530" 385 series that makes 750 hp for less than $10K
Try doing that with an FE.
However, I still prefer the FE!!
The BBF is a potent combo....
|April 19 2017, 7:20 AM |
And as Jason said, a canted valve is hard to beat.
Intake port spacing
|April 19 2017, 7:59 AM |
On a BBC being that efficient and yet paired side by side was a problem as it doesn't leave much of a fuel charge for the next cylinder. This depends on the intake of course but it used to be the trick thing to choke down every other port in an effort to equalize it.
Hard argument to win, we have port spacing,shell lifters,shaft rockers,the side oiler block and SOHC heads. Yet on a grassroots level you can still buy a 454 for a couple hundred bucks add basic bolt ons and be in a solid 450hp with little effort much like a 460.
I don't do a lot of GM builds....
|April 19 2017, 8:22 AM |
I can count my Chevy builds on one hand.
However, a good buddy of mine wanted an engine for his '57 Chevy pickup, so I built him a 454. We basically went to a core supply, got a Gen V 454, did the machine work, reused the heads, stuck a hydraulic roller cam and a Weiand aluminum intake on it and made about 530 hp and almost 600 lb-ft.
Those were the "peanut port" heads....looked smaller than factory SBF stuff.
I get similar numbers with a flat tappet 466 Lima. Small port heads, Port-O-Sonic,
|April 20 2017, 5:25 AM |
(Select Login Tommy-T)
You're kidd'n yerself
|April 19 2017, 9:14 AM |
Just put a closed chamber 325 horsepower 396 head on a flow bench...and then put a 390 GT head on a flow bench.
You'll have your answer why the rat makes more power. It only gets worse for the Ford if you put an open chamber rectangular port rat head against a Medium/Hi Riser or Tunnel Port head.
The abundance of out-of-the-box 400+ cfm aftermarket Rat heads makes it even more ridiculous.
That is what makes it even more fun when you put a whupp'n on a Rat (or 385 Ford) with your dinosaur FE!
A 454 ci Cleveland would make a 454 FE two car lengths easily
|April 19 2017, 6:27 PM |
I love FEs, I love BBCs, I love LD engines and 440 Mopars. They don;t need to mixed. If we want FEs well they are drying up, I am not a Big 460 fan, they just don't have the soul an FE does, even when the 385 is way bigger and faster, Ford makes a 427 Windsor crate engine now that is available, You can't get a common 427 together for that. Its too bad, but I have a 394 fe, and if I built another, I would bore a 390 block to 4.09 and put a 4.125 crank in it with BBMs a good intake and maybe try an EFI like the cool Falcon here has. I'll never be a millionaire, but its a nice dream. I would not have what I have now if not for great friends having spare parts that hand down to my project well. My BBMs need everything done, but I want more inches under them, maybe offset grind that 410/428 crank I have for BBC 6.7s and Racetecs, I have a good roller cam that will be even better if Ken reground it a little for my Morel 5325s.
Woulda coulda shoulda. I love FEs, they run as fast as most cars need to go unless you have a stupid amount of money, they sound good, and they are fun to work on. Good enough for me.
NHRA SS/A Record is an FE
|April 19 2017, 9:59 AM |
This is just another datapoint regarding the BBC vs FE conversation.
Ray Paquet crushed the NHRA SS/A record in October 2016 with his 64 T-Bolt and 427FE running an 8.53 @ 155.58. Whether he's in SS/A or SS/B, Ray consistently beats the BBC cars. The Hemi's Barracudas are the only ones that are faster, but only a select few. I agree that canted valves should be an advantage, but it hasn't proven out yet in NHRA Super Stock.
Here's an 8.60 run:https://youtu.be/IR_XgMuNdKE
|This message has been edited by jgkurz on Apr 19, 2017 10:03 AM|
|April 19 2017, 10:28 AM |
Re: NHRA SS/A Record is an FE
|April 19 2017, 12:32 PM |
This brings up a slight disturbance in the force......
I've witnessed this myself at the track. A 427ci FE may make less dyno hp than a 427 BBC or 429 BBF would.... sometimes by a decent amount, but this doesn't always seem to matter at the track.
Acceleration is something harder to test unless in competition.
Yes but that's a tad different...
|April 19 2017, 12:33 PM |
It's awesome seeing the FE guys win...but that's a highly modified extreme case in a money is no object field. It speaks volumes about the guys behind these engines and chassis combos too. It means they put in thier time to be the best going farther than the guys they beat.
Similar effort, similar cost you're never going to see higher numbers from the FE. Then again in a pros hands is way different than a guy with a socket set hoping to best his buddy at test and tune night.
Personally I'm at the point of swapping in the 347 I have in my Ranger to try to beat little brother's driveway built 454 ironically in his 57 Chevy truck. He's going to laugh win or loose...I can hear it now. "How much did that cost"? Lol
You build old Fords and FEs because you like them...if you can beat the Chevy up the block, great. Just know he has it way easier if he decides to step things up.
Rather have an FE anyday
|April 19 2017, 12:38 PM |
BBC's are ok "if you can keep oil in them" LOL But I would rather have
a ford especially and FE any day!
Not at all...
|April 19 2017, 3:04 PM |
There are probably 75-100 BBC combos to every FE out there. Do you think that the Chevy guys aren't just as serious, or have money to burn on their teams? Ray has tons of experience behind him, but so do MANY of the other guys. Ray is only unique because he's smarter than the vast majority of them and knows every nuance of his combo.
|April 19 2017, 3:22 PM |
Mickey Thompson's 63 1/2 #997 S/S Hi-Rise 427 Lgt/Wgt Galaxie,
1957 C-600 Cab-over carhauler w/390-4V, 2-speed rear-end
FGCofA member #4908
MCGC member #75
"There will ALWAYS be an FE in my LiFE"
So tell me how did he win again?
|April 19 2017, 5:00 PM |
Pretend it was an all FE showdown just for fun with no flukes or broken parts... every run flawless. Hmm wouldn't we assume the winner would be so by the virtue of his driving ability and the sum of effort put in the car. No? Now put this winner up against a field of more widely used and researched engines you can buy parts for. No waiting six months hoping to get a call back, indefinite backorders, way less favors and custom made parts. Lol He's not doing this with a 445 and Edelbrock heads here guys.
"The he's smarter and knows every nuance of his combo" is exactly what I'm talking about. Without testing the range of IQ in S/S..
The guy earned it...You are aware of the PIE heads correct? Took a bit of effort to develop huh? While the Chevy guy could write check for a similar level part. I don't see anything easy or off the shelf there. I see testing and experience that makes for a winning car against stacked odds.
Well said, N/M
|April 19 2017, 6:09 PM |
Dan, you've got to remember he is running against other "highly modified extreme"..
|April 20 2017, 2:01 PM |
That is the ULTIMATE answer to the question. The FE mentioned is beating a huge field of equally "highly modified extreme case in a money is no object field" of
chebby bb rats.
Not to mention his FE is probably outnumbered 50:1, which makes it even more outstanding.
The FE in question is showing exactly what can be done with this motor against the chebby $hit heads.