What to charge for enclosed transport?May 16 2017 at 6:19 AM
|kleandan (Login kleandan)|
Hey guys, I have been asked to deliver a vehicle using my enclosed trailer.
The job would be about 7 hours drive one way.
This is not a friend I am delivering for so it is just a convenient delivery for the vehicle.
I have already talked to the vehicle owner about transport companies that can do this much cheaper than I can...and he knows about them already.
This delivery would benefit him with not having to come here to inspect the vehicle via airplane, by getting the vehicle to him as quickly as possible while providing careful enclosed transport this weekend.
I am also wondering if doing this places me in some "other" category for transport such as full commercial.
I have all paperwork for the vehicle so I could easily be inspected and found to be just a guy transporting his own car without question, but still, rules may hamstring this helpful effort.
If it matters I will be in both MN and WI only.
Thanks for any and all helpful input.
No help here, but don't forget to consider liability and insurance problems if an accident
|May 16 2017, 6:28 AM |
were to occur.
65 Galaxie 390 4speed
66 Thunderbird 428
|May 16 2017, 6:29 AM |
Considering our F350 DRW gets 7 MPG with the box, I'd be in the $1/loaded mile area at least. Also consider that if you don't have a CDL and you get stopped, you would be advised to be "coy" about the operation parameters least you have to drop the trailer and cargo right there on the side of the road. If you can show the cargo to be your personal possessions then it should be no problem. You might want to review truck/trailer restrictions for the states you'll be driving through.
|This message has been edited by Falcon67 on May 16, 2017 6:29 AM|
|May 16 2017, 6:49 AM |
I plan to pay $2.50-$4.00/mile for one way dedicated haul for my projects and about half that much when scheduling roundtrip runs. When some jobs go ltl with enclosed, it tends to run towards the higher price. Special big jobs are priced differently. These are professional transporters with all the proper credentials.
If it is not your personal property, registration, insurance and DOT issues are nothing to be taken lightly. There's no problem as long as there's no problems. Multiple former providers no longer carry for me because of stricter enforcement.
Not clear about all the details of your involvement. Having him forego an in-person inspection of the vehicle (buying it on your or another's evaluation alone?)and paying more to have a non-business provider carry it makes me wonder why. Claims against an individual might be easier than the same made against a profesessional transporter. Is the "not a friend" an autocorrect or is he actually not a friend? Be careful.
1967 Galaxie 500 Red original Q code 428
1967 Galaxie 500 White with Black stripes 428PI clone- car is dead & long gone, sold near Oak Ridge TN 2000, would love to find it.....
Please visit http://carolinasculpturestudio.com/
for pictures, information and video links to my work.
(Select Login johnvermeersch501)
Plenty variables to consider besides money
|May 16 2017, 6:58 AM |
If you want more info, call me to discuss.... been in this business over 30 yrs, running pick-up to Peterbuilts, one car to 6 car trailers....john 810.560.3918
Avoid the DOT
|May 16 2017, 9:59 AM |
Don't drive past a scale. If they do stop you, and you have no permits, DOT number, commercial insurance, probably CDL too, claim private status and whatever you're hauling is 'yours'. Something like a bill of sale with you as a buyer and a signed and dated title to the car as long as it's not filled in with someone else as the buyer.
If they have the slightest idea you might be hauling someone else's car, hope you have deep pockets cause you will be a cash cow to whatever department that nails you.
I will not be hauling this car.
|May 16 2017, 1:04 PM |
I spoke directly with the WI State Patrol on this issue.
Basically if I am being compensated for the hauling, financially or otherwise, I am commercial. Due to be being "commercial" the rules and regulations change dramatically regarding proper credentials to legal.
When I said this guy is not a friend I did not mean anything by it other than pure facts. He is just someone who purchased a car for sale.
The convenience of me hauling it for him is easy to understand and easy to do. However, with this situation changing me from just a citizen with a trailer into a commercial hauler I am no longer going to bother. Far too much hassle for one single trip to help a guy who bought a car.
The State Patrol officer explained it pretty easily. He said if you will be claiming ANY portion of the hauling on your taxes you are commercial. If you are compensated, sponsored, paid, endorsed, you are commercial.
If the stuff being hauled is yours, as well as the hauling vehicle and trailer, then it is personal and falls under different rules.
He also gave some instances where they look the other way if your stuff is in order. For instance, maybe you are moving your Moms furniture to her new place with your trailer. Technically it is commercial but they overlook some rules in some instances.
My instance, as stated above, is commercial and I am not registered for that...No hauling for me in this instance.
I greatly appreciate all the helpful hints from everyone. It all adds up to an overall better situation in the end.
Have a great day.
you own car?
|May 16 2017, 4:07 PM |
It sounds like it was your car you are delivering? That shouldn't be a problem if you own it no matter where it's going and that is none of the DOT's concern anyways, maybe you like weight in the trailer to make it ride smoother.
|May 16 2017, 6:21 PM |
I'm with Tom sounds like this is getting blown way out of proportion. This is your car that you are hauling, none of the DOT's business why. Lots of excuses though, car show, a race, taking it to get it worked on, delivering to a family member or friend, or just delivering it to a buyer for free. But, I don't live in a liberal ran state either so maybe your concerns are warranted. My only concern would be whether I was prepaid or not as to not make a long trip and the buyer back out.
Unless Your 26,001 lbs You Won't Need Any Special Permits
|May 16 2017, 9:02 PM |
That is the way it was in 2003-5. Made Mexico and 47 states over a two and a half year period in F250s using a Bill of Lading and a local insurance agent. Not sure what the requirements per state were but I never stopped at a weigh station nor was ever pursued while hauling tractors, cars, MD trucks or pickup trucks. The only times I had to get Authority and be bonded was hauling new RV campers out of the factories of Illinois.
Another Thing I Did
|May 16 2017, 9:18 PM |
Was I kept a CAT scale weight slip on each load. Being competent and knowing more about your load goes a long way if you are questioned.
|May 17 2017, 8:02 AM |
You haul for hire, you need a CDL and even a DOT number. Weight goes out the window when you go "commercial". Unless you are under 26,001 lbs AND take the "horse exemption" which allows you to haul and win prize money PROVIDED you DO NOT file a Schedule C on your income tax return. Prize money included in ordinary income. Pickup truck, farm trailer, Pinto race car with sponsor name/stickers and file Schedule C = CDL + possibly US-DOT number.
§ 390.3: General applicability.
(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to—
(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;
If DOT/DPS stops him and he says "Guy paid me to carry this" or they ask for papers and can't show ownership, done right there. Also, he's crossing a state line (inferred) as a hired carrier and that is Interstate Commerce.
Our cars are owned by us, sticker free and no name, "Kelly Racing" etc on the trailer, truck, nothing. Our GVWR weight with the new trailer will be close to 25,000. That's one F350 + 34' box.
"NOT FOR HIRE" on the side of your truck is also meaningless per US-DOT and Tx DPS for sure.
You are required to obtain a USDOT number if you have a vehicle that:
Is used to transport the types and quantities of hazardous materials requiring a safety permit in intrastate commerce (see 49 CFR 385.403).
Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation;
AND is involved in Interstate commerce:
Trade, traffic, or transportation in the United States—
Between a place in a State and a place outside of such State (including a place outside of the United States);
Between two places in a State through another State or a place outside of the United States; or
Between two places in a State as part of trade, traffic, or transportation originating or terminating outside the State or the United States.
|This message has been edited by Falcon67 on May 17, 2017 8:18 AM|
Keep A Couple Of Things In Mind
|May 17 2017, 8:48 AM |
1: I was not asking a question. That is how things were at that time.
2: You really need to be involved in the business full time to understand all the ins and outs of doing this legally.
3: You very well may be right about the modern laws reguarding hauling and kleandan is better off taking what you copied-pasted and making up his own mind. I don't have the right nor the interest to say you are wrong as I have not done it in 12 years.
Email me if you must so we don't get all the forum hekilers involved and ruin his original post.
|May 17 2017, 10:42 AM |
Things have changed recently. I have an F350 "box truck" car hauler ( Oleynik body). About five years ago the CHP began pulling over trucks in the 10,000 GVW range for not having "weight stickers" . These are done in the various maximum weights for the vehicle. In my case I have a "15" sticker. To keep from being fined for not having it , I went to the DMV and got them for each side of the truck and stuck them in the specified area. I have to pay MORE now and can only renew at the DMV because of the small stickers that have to be added to the "15" sticker. I do not have a CDL because I am not a "comercial enterprise". I haul my own car to "car shows" ( often held at the drag strip LOL) only. My truck has no lettering on the sides. "Technically" I should go through the scales , but have stopped after the officers waved me through so many times like I was bothering them. There is a real gray area in my situation on DOT numbers or not having them. I have gone without until the Gestapo says I have to have them. I am sure it is only a matter of time. This is all in California , some states are far worse.
|This message has been edited by 161854 on May 17, 2017 10:46 AM|
Really the worst part of the whole deal
|May 17 2017, 1:56 PM |
is that the DPS, CHP, LSMFT, FBI, BSA, whatever - each has their own interpretation of the law, even down to the individual officer. Lots of horror stories here from racers and the Texas DPS on getting hassled. The down side is that the officer on scene can write you up for what he thinks is wrong, then you get to sort it out in front of a judge. A total waste of yours and the courts - and the taxpayers - time.
I need to go Googling and see if that case from MI or OH (forget) was resolved - where a guy pulling a box with his show car and the highway patrol wrote him up for a $750 ticket as being a commercial hauler. No name on the trailer, no stickers on the car.
Have also heard of people being hassled because all fuel has to be hauled in DOT approved containers. Regular race fuel jugs from VP apparently are not DOT approved. And neither is a fuel cell.
As much as I loathe gubbermint interference, this is one area that could really use a good, hard and fast set of overall regs rather than a mis-mash of state hacks.
|May 17 2017, 10:29 AM |
"You haul for hire, you need a CDL and even a DOT number." I'll address this as interstate transportation (intrastate transportation is governed by each state). This statement is not entirely correct. You only need a CDL if you are in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise (private or for hire) and the GVWR, GCWR, or actual weight of the vehicle (or combination of vehicles) you are operating exceeds 26,000 pounds, or you engage in certain passenger transportation or certain haz-mat transportation. The registration requirements for USDOT numbers begin at 10,001 pounds.
Example: If you have a small box truck with a GVWR of 12,500 pounds and used in business (for hire or private) you will need a USDOT, DOT physical, and be subject to the Federal safety regulations. However you will not need a CDL (except perhaps Haz-Mat).
One thing that adds to the confusion is that the definition of "commercial motor vehicle" in CFR 49 part 383 that deals with driver's licenses is different that the definition "commercial motor vehicle" in CFR 49 part 390 that covers Federal motor carrier regulations.
For reference I am a retired DOT inspector who sat on the vehicle committee of the Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Alliance.
I talked directly to the source. Pretty definitive.
|May 17 2017, 8:37 AM |
I spoke directly with the enforcement officials. While I don't have the literal statutes in my hand to read and interpret I felt the Officer knew what he was talking about and was honest in giving me good information. He asked good questions, answered all my questions, and input some of the real world views as well.
There is far too much curbstone lawyer knowledge out there concerning this subject. "I knew a guy". "I heard a guy say". "I have been doing for x number of years without issue". These are great stories to tell after hours while sipping a beverage and sitting around the fire.
The sentiments carry ZERO weight when the officials have you on the side of the road, unhooking your trailer and impounding it until you comply with laws regarding commercial transport.
Many a hauler is doing business in an illegal manner regardless of whether they know it or not and regardless of whether they get caught.
I went to the source to find out what the real rules are. I found out I should not be transporting this car due to the details of the transaction placing me fully in commercial status...I am not a commercial hauler. I am just a guy with a truck and enclosed trailer.
While being technically illegal moving my buddies car to a show 25 miles away is very different than crossing state lines and driving many hours one way to deliver a car for payment.
I still appreciate all the helpful input. It all helps in the end.
Re: I talked directly to the source. Pretty definitive.
|May 17 2017, 8:49 AM |
Like someone above said, it's all good, until it's not. Wise decision to pass on this one!
Most is not "curbstone lawyer" talk
|May 17 2017, 2:24 PM |
Just one example
See Fred Rader's car here -http://looserocker.com/?page_id=27
Read about his dealings with Illinos, and a few other things here -http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?s=2888f3c2e4c0f0fa38e237cb87af261c&t=53250
There is other info out there, just not finding it. Bottom line was that Fred was let go at the time, then received a letter from the state DMV with a ticket and a $750 fine for being commercial without a CDL. Except he wasn't commercial in any way, shape or form. So do not cound on the state to be the "final" answer.
As you noted, the cop that stopped you makes the rules, doesn't matter what the person you talked to at State or DMV said on the phone. It can well be BS but you have to take it to court to prove it.
|May 17 2017, 12:57 PM |
This subject gets beat to death over on the Class Racer forum. It seems many of the officers pulling people over don't have a full grasp of the rules when it comes to private vs commercial transport of vehicles or they're out to raise the revenues of the city.
Some of the big problems that affect many of the racers is oversize rigs. (Wish I had that problem) There are also special motorsport exemptions.
The best recommendations I've seen on their forum is to print the states laws that you travel through and keep a copy with you in your rig.