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sleeve slipped down into block. What to do?

August 11 2017 at 10:40 AM
paulie  (Login Paul_Lovett)
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I have a 427 block with a sleeve in the number 3 cylinder. The sleeve is slightly recessed from the deck of the block. I can feel the sleeve sticking out on the bottom of the cylinder. There is no step to hold it in place.

The sleeve seems to be recessed roughly 0.010". That's the thin outer silver line in the pic.

Question is what do you do when rebuilding? Just deck the block? Maybe the sleeve will keep migrating down?

Remove the sleeve and redo it with a step at the bottom?

thanks,

paulie


427_sleeve

 
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chillymerc
(Login chilly460)
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Re: sleeve slipped down into block. What to do?

August 11 2017, 10:46 AM 

Hmm, that sucks. I know Brent has had this happen so I'm guessing he can chime in. Not sure I'd trust that it wouldn't keep slipping if it already started.

If I had a sleeve put in I'd want the cylinder stepped at the bottom to avoid this issue, I'm sure it's more complicated/expensive but would seem bulletproof. Hope its a simple fix for you.
_______________________________

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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I have no problem replacing a sleeve, in terms of cost.

August 11 2017, 12:20 PM 

In the context of a whole engine build it's a small extra expense.

thanks,

paulie

 
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Brent Lykins
(Login blykins)
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Couple things....

August 11 2017, 11:01 AM 

Sleeves need steps to sit on. They can move if they're not clamped at the bottom and the top both.

The situation I had was with an aluminum block. When you first get them, you clamp a honing plate to the block, torque it down, and stick it in the oven.

The sleeves will set then, but for some reason one sleeve in the block I used didn't set fully down against the bottom and it dropped .012". In that case, I tore the engine down, did the clamp thing again, and then cut the decks on the block.

In your case, a felpro 1020 fire ring will prob "take up the slack", or you could trim the decks, but I would worry about it dropping again if it's not sitting down on something.


    
This message has been edited by blykins on Aug 11, 2017 11:06 AM


 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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Thanks. How wide does the step need to be at the bottom?

August 11 2017, 12:10 PM 

Just thinking that if I have the sleeve replaced the block will have to be bored further out to create a step, and I obviously want to keep that to a minimum. Am I thinking correctly?

paulie

 
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Brent Lykins
(Login blykins)
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Yes, it would have to bored for the step.

August 11 2017, 12:23 PM 

It varies depending on the sleeve OD and ID, but even a .010" step on each side would serve as a good shoulder to sit on.

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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Thanks. I'll let the forum know how it turns out.

August 11 2017, 4:34 PM 

It'll be a while, but I'll post the solution I used.

paulie

 
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John
(Login jetstuff)
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Sinking sleeve ...

August 11 2017, 12:22 PM 

Hi Brent,

Posted here cause I may have the same problem with a 351C block. Nice clean virgin block before it threw a rod. The rod scored the bore and beat up the bottoms of the 2 rear cylinders. I took it to a machinist I've used before ( with a pretty good reputation), he magged it and put two sleeves in it. When I picked it up I noticed he bored the block straight thru, and left the sleeves stick out the bottom about an eighth of an inch. Right away I bitched, and he said he did it so the block would have enough skirt support for the pistons. ( I was building a 408) He said the sleeves were fitted extra tight and they wouldn't move , and if they did he would fix it.

I'm reluctant to use it as I don't feel like wasting a bunch of other parts if water gets in the pan.

My question is ... How would you fix this correctly ? I'm thinking either a thicker sleeve or a sleeve with a step at the top ?

Any thoughts or ideas ?

Thank's John

BTW, normally I'd just find another block, but this is a (previously) nice XE block that came from one of the NASCAR teams in the 1980's

 
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Falcon67
(Login Falcon67)
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Cant help but know what he is thinking

August 13 2017, 7:06 PM 

351C has very little support between the deck and crankcase. INHO more than a couple of sleves in a 351C block means its junk for anything but putt putt stocker use becase the deck(s) move around too much.

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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n/m

August 11 2017, 11:16 AM 



    
This message has been edited by Paul_Lovett on Aug 11, 2017 12:10 PM


 
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Randy Millard
(Login Henrysnephew)
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Paulie, while a step at the bore bottom...

August 11 2017, 12:25 PM 

is the correct method you're past that. A good machinist can deal with your situation by pinning the sleeve to the block at the bottom (I've seen it done). Randy Millard (Henrysnephew).

 
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Barry_R
(Login Barry_R)
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I was just going to suggest that

August 11 2017, 12:55 PM 

Sticking a few pins into the bottom might give you a fighting chance.

I really hate to carve away at the deck. We have/had a nice 427 here that somebody installed adjoining sleeves with no step and a tight press fit. Split the deck between the bores. Then they pinned the deck crack in an effort to save it without any success. No matter what we tried for head gaskets we could not get that poor thing to hold a seal - seemed fine cold but sucked water as soon as it saw any load and the head started moving around.
Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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Ooo.....that's not something I had thought of.

August 11 2017, 12:56 PM 

I like that idea. I was thinking of putting a weld at the bottom of the sleeve in two or three places. I had not thought of pinning it. I will discuss all these possibilities with my machinist.

Thanks!

paulie

 
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john vermeersch
(Select Login johnvermeersch501)
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Another fix ( ill get some static on this !! )

August 11 2017, 1:05 PM 

A spot or two weld near bottom of sleeve to be able to push it back into place... Then drill and tap a hole into block, next to bore at the bottom, insert a cap screw bolt into the block bottom ,with the head overlapping the bottom of the sleeve..../cant move down, deck top a little..... JMHO

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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I love all these ideas.

August 11 2017, 4:31 PM 

I may end up putting a new sleeve in, but I appreciate all the ideas. I'm all for practical solutions that work, even if they aren't high tech and "cool".

Thanks,

paulie


    
This message has been edited by Paul_Lovett on Aug 11, 2017 4:33 PM


 
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Blair Patrick
(Login CaptCobrajet)
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Okay Paul, here is the correct way.....

August 11 2017, 4:55 PM 

Bore that sleeve out. HONE the cylinder straight and round. It can be honed with VERY light load to keep from distortion. If it burnishes, no big deal. Then set up and counter bore the deck for a FLANGED sleeve. It will need very light interference. .0008 is plenty, lube it with green Loctite. Set the sleeve immediately before the Loctite sets. Light cut of the deck to finish the job. I use "round" Cometic gaskets on flanged sleeves. Using a very light press will keep the next door neighbor from getting too far out of whack. The new sleeve needs to be about .030 smaller than finish bore. Then go back and bore/hone to the new size. I can usually do that and only need .005 to get everything back round.

Boring the existing sleeve hole for a step at the bottom will likely compromise an OE 427 block, and the heavy press of a regular sleeve will foul up adjacent cylinders. The method above is the best fix if you want to do it RIGHT.
Blair Patrick

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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Thank you Blair. I like to say "Right makes Might".

August 11 2017, 5:01 PM 

You guys have given me all the info I need to discuss this with my machinist.

Much thanks,

paulie

 
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Barry_R
(Login Barry_R)
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Have you tried that on adjacent sleeves

August 11 2017, 5:39 PM 

I wondered whether treating the 427 with the split decks as if it were an aluminum block with interlocking flanged sleeves might be a workable fix. Cost probably too high for practicality, but might be an interesting effort.
Barry Rabotnick
Survivalmotorsports.com

 
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Blair Patrick
(Login CaptCobrajet)
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Adjacent cyls.....

August 11 2017, 6:38 PM 

I never like to use larger than 4.630 for the flange O.D. They just kiss each other at the tangent of the sleeves if side-by-side. Not enough meat in the deck like the aluminum blocks have. We sleeve many "used up" 427s back to 390 and 428 bores, but I don't like to sleeve adjacent holes back to a 427 bore. The cylinder behind the sleeve is the support that holds the flanged sleeve, and recreates the vertical deck integrity. The casting thins up as you get further from the original bore, so I don't like to go too big with the sleeve O.D. as it will eventually cut the deck loose. I have done some strange things to create support, anchored back to the floor of the water jacket, but it is time consuming and not practical unless it is a "special" block and/or there are no new alternatives available.
Blair Patrick

 
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Tom P
(Login tomposthuma)
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Re: Adjacent cyls.....

August 12 2017, 3:52 PM 

I have a 428 block that had water sit in #7 and 8 cylinders. I had it bored .030 but a couple pits still show. The machinist says it'll burn oil and he'd recommend two sleeves. I am hesitant to do that and would rather risk the oil burning Is there any other way to fix that?

 
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