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Hey Werby! About the 426 Hemi factory warranty:

December 7 2017 at 5:33 AM
EricD  (Login EricDonaldson)
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WerbyFord
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Great. Cant we get rid of the Hemi some other way?

December 7 2017, 5:46 AM 

Well it looks like at least for 1968 its 12mo 12000 mi (12k).
That doggone hemi.
I will search for some other years.

All the more reason to go to a 42-class model year & transmission format for PSMCD like I laid out below.
Still no need for any "factoring".


Great link, just looking at the updates.
http://www.oldcarbrochures.org/index.php/New-Brochures---November/1963-Ford-Giant-Menu-Brochure/1963-Ford-Giant-Menu-08

I like the 10.8 CR 390/300 for 1963. Sure.
Still hunting for more hemi warranties.

1967 Hemi, same, 12m 12k
http://www.oldcarbrochures.org/index.php/NA/Plymouth/1967-Plymouth/1967_Plymouth_Full_Line_Brochure/1967-Plymouth-Full-Line-28


    
This message has been edited by werbyford on Dec 7, 2017 6:57 AM


 
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Bill Ballinger
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Two of the best Ford true Muscle Cars are left out in the cold, it is sad because if Iaco

December 7 2017, 6:32 AM 

ego to keep the Mustang top dog. The best driving, fit , finish and quality intermediates bar none are the 68-69 Fairlane Torino Fastback and its Cobra iteration with the 428 CJ, and I am without doubt that the 390 could have been improved by having a lower cost 390 GT with CJ parts, like stripper Road Runner with its 383. The other is the Mercury Cougar from 67-70. These are the two finest interdiate cars made by anyone. If they had made a 39-410 ci CJ with the CJ goodies in 1966 the Fairlane GT all the way from 66-69 could have been a cost competitive option that could have been made in huge numbers, with the 428CJ being an upmarket option even wilder solid cam, LeMans rods, forged pistons, the 410 with forged pistons a ggod hydraulic like the hyd McKellor in the Pontiacs, and the Cougar similarly equipped with Buick style luxury for up market options with the 428 PI or CJ just juiced up a little more but with a base 410 and good cam heads and manifolds, we could have been right at the top of durable finely built muscle cars.

I know coulda, shoulda, woulda, if a frog had wings it wouldn't bounce its ass off the ground every time it jumps, but man those cars even now are great cars, very well built and even new were praised for quality fit and finish. Ford just had to keep the performance image of the Mustang tops and run limited runs to homolgate racing sanction body drivetrains. It is sad. The FE is a great cruiserweight like a Pontiac is. Why not a HR 390 GT with 2.15/1.66 valves and CJ or shorty iron headers? It could have been.

 
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mick clarke
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Fords finest

December 7 2017, 1:30 PM 

Great post Bill ! Enjoyed reading that.

 
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Bob Sprowl
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One overlooked Ford engine is the '66 Galaxie 428 PI

December 7 2017, 3:40 PM 

I raced one in 1969-70 and that car with headers and slicks ran 12.70s.
1966 7 Litre Convertible
1959 F-100 (under construction)
2005 GT40 (in my Dreams)


    
This message has been edited by bsprowl on Dec 7, 2017 3:40 PM


 
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Bill Ballinger
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I tore a 428PI down once and it still had big port heads, C6TE's

December 7 2017, 4:23 PM 

good exhausts in a plian police car, the guy bought it from his local force, a 66 model galaxie that was his cruiser that had gotten long in the tooth and was up for auction. He bought it and I wasn't but maybe 12, 13 and we rebuilt it, and that think was quiet with the PI cam the heads had chambers that looked like the chambers had been machined, still clean. He had the machinist put 2.09/1.66 valves in per Ford muscle parts and an earlier aluminum intake that looked almost like a CJ, a big burly ported thing but aluminum he got from Ford Racing or what it was called back then with a set of NIB iron long headers with number 7 recessed just like the 65-68's had, and a Holley off of a 396 Chevy. That car even whisper quiet would lay both tires down bblack for 1/2 a block and I really got a rush riding with him on Hwy 13 in Greene cty going to Bolivar, MO Nathan will know the road, the old 13 was crooked as a dogs hind leg back then. He had the speedometer pegged on every straight away and that6 428 was just yawning like is that all you want? A 66 with a 428 set up withthe HD suspension is a fine handling car for twisty roads, my 65 is amazing what it can do and it is just a warmed 394.

He was my Sunday School Teacher and he really got me in to FE's while we were rebuilding it I learned everything about them that was superior. I still say that the 390 should have been a 410 and kept the non-smog heads, Unibody cars should not have been crippled by those crappy manifolds and the logs were barely better. I think they should have clipped the intermediates with a Galaxie like front and rear with free breathing exhaust manifolds. Iacoca could have kept his precious little 6 cyl small block Mustang that way instead of making so miserable to work on with an FE.

 
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WerbyFord
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Bob I'm Gonkulating 12.75 at 107.5 in E/S=10.00

December 7 2017, 8:53 PM 

NHRA says 3647 lb Custom 500 428/360 so I gutted it down to that weight. Easy in the Gonkulator.
Good weather would let the Gonkulator run that with a heavier weight.
That weight comes out to 10.13 which would put the car in E/S=10.00.
Were you running that or just "running"?

Gonkulator says stock 428/360 at 344ghp, hurt by the small carb and flat iron logs.
NHRA prep gets it to 397ghp, a good fat increase.
A carb would put it well over 400hp but that wouldn't be NHRA legal any more.

Do you remember details or your MPH?

 
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Bob Sprowl
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Some years ago I misplaced the few time slips I kept.

December 8 2017, 7:39 AM 

It was at about 5300 ft in Albuquerque. The time for my 7 Litre 4 speed in H/stock (My class using he '69-'70 NHRA rule book) after I blueprinted the engine in the Winter of '69-'70 with slicks and hooker headers was in the very low 14s which factored into the 12.70s.

In the next couple of years I beat several CJ Mustangs and 396 Chevelles, etc on the street in Stillwater, OK. My 4.57 Detroit Locker probably helped that a bit - LOL.

I replaced the 1.12 Autolite carb with a 780 Holley off a Boss 302 and couldn't believe the difference. Could you Gonkulate that change?

Thanks,

Bob
1966 7 Litre Convertible
1959 F-100 (under construction)
2005 GT40 (in my Dreams)


    
This message has been edited by bsprowl on Dec 8, 2017 10:03 AM


 
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WerbyFord
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Bob was your 7L hardtop or ragtop?

December 8 2017, 12:21 PM 

NHRA says
7L hardtop
11.34=3912/345
7L vert
11.76 at 4057/345

Unless of course they factored the 7L down from its rated (LOL) 345hp......

A stock 7L in that heavy car, that is a good ET either way - was the engine a 7L or a 428PI running in the 7L class?

I will have to Gonkulate ABQ (I've actually raced at ABQ dragstrip!!) and then correct - What I do is run the GOnkulator at altitude, then rerun it at, well, not sea level, but about 29.92 70F and 500 ft, kind of a typical day, seems to line up with most real results. Now and then you get a REAL cold test day like that 107mph 429SCJ car or the 107mph 421sd Cat, and those get repeated year after year. usually if you get that weather it's snowing out. You can actually see the snow at Detroit Dragway for that 421sd test.

 
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Bob Sprowl
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Hardtop with a blueprinted 428 PI engine ...

December 8 2017, 3:02 PM 

added a new PI cam and junkyard PI intake and valve train. CC'ed the heads to the nearest 1/10th of a cc, etc. Checked the lift (ratio of the rocker arms) and switched out the low lift ones to get 1.76 on all of them. I had installed Hooker headers, Airlift air bags to help my Firestone wrinkle walls hook and linelock the previous year.

I've wondered what the Holley 950 CFM 3BBL would have added ever since I saw one.

Thanks

Bob
1966 7 Litre Convertible
1959 F-100 (under construction)
2005 GT40 (in my Dreams)


    
This message has been edited by bsprowl on Dec 8, 2017 7:34 PM


 
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WerbyFord
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High Altitude H/S 428pi

December 9 2017, 7:46 AM 

Bob,
Well ok here goes:
I'm getting
3912/340=11.51 for H/S=11.50.
Either NHRA was calling your engine a 7L, factored from 345hp to 340hp, or a 428pi, factored from 360hp to 340hp.
The Gonk puts the factory 428pi at 344ghp bone stock, but I didn't know they would factor something as rare as a 428pi, not exactly an A/S headliner! Do you know which engine NHRA was calling yours?

Anyway, here is what I get at a typical Albuquerque day, alt=4943 ft, that matches your timeslip
Torq 458 at 3500
Powr 379 at 5100
14.09 at 98.0
This corrects at SAE sea level, 29.92, 60F dry air as follows:
13.28 at 104.8 Gonkulator
12.93 at 106.6 dragtimes site, "stock"
13.18 at 104.4 dragtimes site, "highly modified"
http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php?elevationcorrect=6545&et=14.09&mph=98.0&correctetmph=Correct+ET+and+MPH

I see that their correction now depends on what the engine is doing.
In reality it depends on even more - thin air makes less power but you get better aero, so there is some gain there depending on how fast the car is going and its aero.

With the 780 Holley the Gonk says
Torq 460 at 3500 +2
Powr 390 at 5100 +11
13.14 at 106.4 -.14 sec and +1.8mph vs the 4100 carb.

Hard to recreate history but that is one possibility!


    
This message has been edited by werbyford on Dec 9, 2017 7:50 AM


 
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Bob Sprowl
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Thank you.

December 9 2017, 8:43 AM 

I thought the bigger carb added more but my memory probably is incorrect.

Bob
1966 7 Litre Convertible
1959 F-100 (under construction)
2005 GT40 (in my Dreams)

 
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WerbyFord
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I know about 2mph "feels" faster

December 9 2017, 11:30 AM 

Typically I get that "oh, yeah" feeling when I ditch an Autolite or AFB and put a Holley on instead, but the diff is typically "only" 0.2 sec and 2mph or so. The Holley just feels so much better.

That said, it's possible that the Holley was in a better state of tune than the 4100 with those open headers especially.

Still curious about the factoring, do you know how you got into the H/S=11.50 class?
Near as I can figure they had to factor your engine at 340hp, but from either 345 or 360 factory rating -
Do you remember which?
Thanks

 
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Bob Sprowl
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Its a long story ...

December 9 2017, 2:45 PM 

I remember the class as H/Stock. The long version of why I was running a 428 PI:

I was assigned to Kirtland AFB following my tour in Viet Nam. I was from California and had a ’50 Ford flat head with an Isky cam, 2x2s, dual exhausts and a shaved head. It was a dog at that altitude. While hunting for parts in junkyards I saw a number of 428 State police cars. In April of ‘69 I finally gave up on the flathead and bought a 7 Litre 4 speed at a Ford dealer. (It had a Ford add on AC unit which had a lot to do with my decision. LOL)

I went to the track and discovered that my class had a dozen cars that ran real well – all within a 3/4 second of the national record (corrected for altitude) and another dozen that ran around a second over the record. I ran behind all of them. They were all using headers and cheater slicks and I was on stock tires and didn’t have headers. I was actually running a pure stock car but had no intention of staying pure stock.

The next class down and only three cars in it and I was quicker than all of them. I asked the track tech people if I had 428 PI what class my car would be in and was told the next one down. Two weeks later (they only opened the track every other week end) I was back with a 428 PI. I wasn’t running much better as I hadn’t up graded my rear axle yet. I did discover the reason why there weren’t many cars in my new class. The lower class was ”owned” by a white ’61 Corvette 283 with 2x4s (280 HP as I recall). It was trailered to the track and was a track only car;it didn't even have license plate. The owner had been at Division regional race in El Paso the previous race weekend where he won stock Eliminator. He called his car “Shaky Business” and laughed at the idea of my Galaxie ever beating him.

It took me until the last race in September of 1970 to beat him. That’s a much longer story.
So check the class that a ’61 Corvette 283, 2x4, 280 HP would have been in and that’s the class I was running in’69 and ’70.

I suppose the log manifolds would be the reason the 428 PI would not be competitive under the PSMCD rules. Certainly more than 1000 were made and the warranty should have been OK also.

Bob
1966 7 Litre Convertible
1959 F-100 (under construction)
2005 GT40 (in my Dreams)

 
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WerbyFord
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Sounds right for 1970 H/S=10.50

December 9 2017, 5:52 PM 

Bob,
ok, I was looking at 1968 for some reason - classes changed every year back in there.
So, 1970 H/S=10.50
1966 7L Hardtop
3912/360 = 10.87

The LTD Hardtop also fits at
3809/360 = 10.58

The XL hardtop just misses H/S at
3774/360 = 10.48 too light

The 1961 283/270 dual quad vette comes in at
2904/270 = 10.76
Also not the greatest fit but he probably didn't want to fiddle with the FI engines.

Real car competitors in the H=10.50 class would have been
1960 SuperDuty Cat 389/363 but rarely seen
1967 Firebird 400/325 Convert
1968 Nova L48 350/295
1968 Fairlane 390/325gt
1968 350/325w31 Cutlass
1969 428/335 non-shaker Fairlane (well, there goes the neighborhood)
1969 350/w31 convert

Oh, the "1000 min" is not a PSD rule, just my own criteria for the Gonkulator Shootout.
The logs would probably hurt the car in PSD.
Also though, at some point Ford stopped selling the PI cars to regular customers.
I know in 1963-64 you could get a PI car, but by the 1970s you could not.
Not sure when that changed or if PSMCD would allow a PI package not available to regular customers.

Great story!!
I have been to Kirtland many times, I used to work with the Air Force on, uh, "The Crowd Pleaser" as they called it in Broken Arrow, and some others too.
I would always stop and watch them do colors in the morning when visiting.

 
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StarlinerRon
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Some things to ponder

December 7 2017, 6:49 PM 

For 1957 the 300 hp Ford Custom or the Rambler Rebel 327/275 w/OD came w/4.56 rear. The Chrysler
2sp auto slowed the hemi down.

For 1971 the AMC Javelin 401/Go Package/4sp/3.54 The early 71 10.2 comp 401 was quick.
The 1972-74 401's were contenders too.

The 1956 Chrysler 300 had a 354/355 package (yes it beat chevy to the 1hp per cu in).


Ron.


    
This message has been edited by StarlinerRon on Dec 7, 2017 6:58 PM


 
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Tom P
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Re: Some things to ponder

December 7 2017, 7:51 PM 

The gear thing is not fair, lots of those cars were common with lower gears.
I agree with Bill's great post above that Ford really dropped the ball in the mid 60's.
When I was talking to an old MacLennan Motors (Mercury dealer) guy years ago he was telling me about the 66 Caliente I had. It was a 2V car according to the VIN but the original owner I bought it from says the Holley 4V which was on it came on it new.

The dealer guy says "Here we are across the street from a Pontiac dealer and beside a Dodge dealer. Young guy comes in, his dad won't let him get a 'racing car' like the Cyclone with stripes (LOL) but a Caliente is fine. The Caliente 390 was only two barrel. They would go to the other dealers and get a four barrel car for the same price."
He said they got new iron intakes, carbs and HiPo chrome air cleaners and GT valve covers from the parts department and installed them then put them in the showroom like that.

 
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WerbyFord
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In the Gonk shootout I assume you can hold 1st gear

December 7 2017, 9:08 PM 

I never had an early (1956-57) Torqueflite but from what I understand, they were 3-speed, 2.45 1.45 1.00, but the 1-2 shift came real early like 2500rpm ie just off stall. But, you could hold 1st gear. So I do that in the Gonkulator Shootout and as a result the doggone 300C is pretty dominant.

Here is the 1957 Automatic Gonkulator Shootout, bone stock, 300 lb loads, good exhaust:

15.10 at 90.6 392/390 Chry 300C
15.52 at 87.5 312/300 Fairlane
15.88 at 85.4 347/317-6v Pont
16.01 at 85.2 364/300 Buick
16.02 at 85.0 371/300-6v Olds J-2
16.26 at 84.8 327/255 Rebel
17.22 at 84.4 283/283fi Turboslide Chevy

The 283/283fi was not even offered with the Powerglide, it actually Gonkulates SLOWER than the 283/250 which was the top Powerglide engine. The Turboglide was not too popular so I don't even have that much confidence in its Gonkulation.

The 1957 Rebel was a good car for an AMC, but as Bud famously said to Elle, "she wasn't smart, she was just smart for a blonde". Bad choice of words..... watch Kill Bill again if you forgot, but watch Tora Tora again first, there's still time.

By 1974 AMC was coming of age, but running out of time.
Here is the 1974 Gonkulator Automatic Shootout, I had already given up on the soggy 351cj.
14.09 at 100.3 455/290 TransAm SD, kinda embarrassing to everybody else
15.08 at 92.3 350/245 z28
15.22 at 91.6 401/235 Javelin Hey, a 3rd for AMC
15.28 at 91.2 440/275 Charger
16.00 at 85.9 350/175 Buick Apollo (what???)
16.16 at 85.8 460/220 Starsky&Hutch
16.61 at 82.2 350/200 Cutlass

For 1975 AMC was back in last place with the Gremlin, making the 460-Ford-Powered Sherman Tank look relatively good!


    
This message has been edited by werbyford on Dec 7, 2017 9:15 PM


 
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StarlinerRon
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How about the 1957 stick shootout?

December 8 2017, 10:12 AM 

And the ugly Rebel was 275 hp not 255, don't forget the 4.56 rear. Magazines called it 57's quickest.

SuperStock mag tested a 401 Jav and it was deep into the 14's.

Why was the 61 Ford listed 390/375 and the 62 as 390/401?

Ron.

 
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WerbyFord
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Factory parts only

December 8 2017, 12:00 PM 

Per my Gonkulator Shootout rules and PSMCD rules also, they don't allow dealer parts or parts in the trunk.
So IIRC the 390/375 was the only FACTORY option for 1961, whereas the 390/401 came factory in early 1962. It Gonkulates about a fender quicker than the 406/405 in factory condition. If you blueprint the 406 and fix the terrible quench it runs better. I guess Ford was already scared their cars were getting too fast.

More later on the AMC's!
I see that 401 test, 98mph, haven't Gonkulated it yet.
Gonkulator gets 14.63 at 96.1 for a 71-401/330 FMX Javelin, 300 lb in the car and average weather.
So 14.30 at 98 would not be out of reach with good weather and a dieting driver.
Still, that doesn't cut it for 1971 given all the competition.

 
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