OT/ SD 421 Pontiacs, you could buy a 421 Pontiac but you had to buy the racing parts overFebruary 9 2018 at 4:36 AM
|Bill Ballinger (Login 65billgal)|
the counter, all disassembled. The 4 bolt reinforced block, forged crank rods pistons , McKellor heads, cam and build it yourself. There is a guy who still races them, I forget his name but he has had the aluminum stuff, a swisscheese car, and a 421 baby tempest. They didn't offer a Super Duty engine as an out the door option. It was a 13:1 race car with forged internals as opposed to cast crank rods and pistons at 10:1 from the showroom. You had to buy the car, and then the Superduty stuff seperately and build it yourself. Royal Bobcat was a big supplier up around Livernois and 6 mile road. Jim Wangers drove a 1960 Super Duty with the good stuff in it and he said it bore no relation to what you got over the counter. Thought I would clear that up. I would love to build a Ford version from a HD 390 block.
Some of it carried over to the GTO, but it still had cast internals. In fact Wangers said the GTO in the road tests was really a 421.
|This message has been edited by 65billgal on Feb 9, 2018 4:41 AM|
One thing that was odd is that they only had 2.02/1.66 valves on the
|February 9 2018, 6:21 AM |
McKellor heads that only flowed 230 cfm, 17° valve angleand almost as much on the exhaust.
Thought I would throw that out for Werby. RAIV and the 670 I believe were the only closed chamber late heads you could get and the Pontic heads that came with the 2.11/1.77s all were 14°, but as I understand the 670 was the only closed chamber. I put a set on my 400, the rest of the engine was RAIV, it had the big hydraulic originally but I got the same specs as the McKellor 10 in a solid for it. It gave a lot of the 454-455 guys hell
Back in '03 I believe it was Packer Pontias and Bill Blair
|February 9 2018, 7:03 AM |
BTW, he restored and raced the "Mystic Warrior" 421 Tempest with the Powershift trans
|February 9 2018, 7:15 AM |
Bad ass car, it ran in the low tens.
You're confusing history , Bill. Better stick with Fords
|February 9 2018, 8:14 AM |
Sounds like you're trying to "clear up" my comments from a post below. My Pontiac knowledge needs no clarification. My father was one of the biggest Poncho guys I've ever known. The discussion Werby introduced was specifically about the 421SD in 1962.
In 1960, the "Super Duty" parts were indeed parts counter items. And by the way, they were only referred to as Super Duty within Pontiac. That name got out later on and pretty soon everyone was using the term
Four bolt main blocks were production units in 1960, if you checked the box labeled "Tempest 425A" under engine selection. 425A package was available in single four and tripower induction. It came with different heads and intake than the vanilla 389s, as well as cast factory headers (much like the FE). My late father's 1960 Ventura shares my garage with my Cyclone, if you'd care for any photos of those exhaust manifolds.
"SD" parts were a step above, and only available as individual parts...for 1960 and 1961.
Anyway, in 1962 the scene changed and the 421 was released. Super Duty became an engine package available to anyone with a wallet and in any car.
I thought it was '63 that you could buy the 425A, but I can't be right all the time.
|February 9 2018, 8:52 AM |
The stuff i was going by was from Bill Blair and Jim Wangers. I would trust you more than anyone though. I was right about a couple thing though, it wasn't an option, just an internal phrase until it got to in demand. Its too bad GM didn't keep on with the 421. I think the '61 Bonneville is about the most beautiful car ever made.
So you could get a '62 421 2X4 with the forged rods and 13:1 pistons in a showroom car with a warranty? I always though that was a DIY deal.
|February 9 2018, 9:02 AM |
Any details on your Dad's car? My Ventura was a Skymist blue car with a Pearl white top, A/C power everything car but unfortunately just the second from the bottom 2bbl engine. It did have the 60 only aluminum case Hydro which was pretty rare and 38 options on a list of 42 if I remember. Later I bought a stripped out 60 Catalina sedan that I planned to Nostalgia race but never got to far with.
|February 9 2018, 9:15 AM |
These are the only pictures I have at the moment. I'll be taking more, as it will likely be for sale soon. It never comes out of my garage, and that's a shame.
The car is a Ventura (series 23), basically a dressed up Catalina. It's built as a 425A, but was not originally a 425A car.
Coronad Red with Tri-tone interior
4 speed Hydra-matic
8 lug wheels
factory cast headers
|This message has been edited by FormerlyCyclonic66 on Feb 9, 2018 9:18 AM|
That's a real cool car
|February 9 2018, 10:40 AM |
I was a member of the POCI-S.O.S just for 60 Pontiac owners and have a stack of stuff on those and the early SD parts still and some misc. from the cars. One funny thing is the Ventura was billed as sports model of sorts but they also made a 4door hardtop in 60. I wanted to find a Catalina convertible and add all the Ventura trim and interior to it as a what if car somewhat like the X-4oo. Then I bought 64 Falcon with a 289hipo and even the Firechickens found new homes.
What is amusing is that Ponchos seem to have a soft spot with other Ford guys too. Most of what I see posted here is more accurate to what I learned owning them than what I see on the Pontiac forums.
Can't see the pics n/m
|February 9 2018, 4:12 PM |
BTW, the Tempest SD 421 with the powershift is amazing the Mystic Warrior for one
|February 9 2018, 9:06 AM |
What was your dad's car named? They would run low 10's! I really thought '63 was the only year, then they pulled the plug on racing, they did pretty good in Nascar. My uncle had a '58 I beklieve with the Trophy 395A and that was a fast car, 370 and Rochester 4V. I did a frame off resto on a '65 GTO 389 tri-power and 4 speed, everything but the outside paint and every part number correct and it was really fast for the little bitty valves it had, torque out the wazoo, shift it it at 5200 and man that thing would go.
My 70 Lemans Sport was originally a 350HO car with a 3 speed on the floor. I put a RAIV with a McKellor I0 solid and 670 heads. and a Muncie M22, it would eat a 21 alive. I got screwed by my uncle on it. He sold it out from under me when he got married. That was a running, handling stopping car!
If I wasn't into Fords it would be Pontiacs. Having the passenger bank forward and a drivers side fuel pump made the Pontiac really unique. They had a lot in common with Fords. Any how it fun to meet a Pontiac lover. Thanks for the straight info.
Thanks Jim I think Bill B was thinking about 1963
|February 9 2018, 9:08 AM |
I've learned on those early years (which I mostly missed, still driving my Fire Chief Pedal Car), you have to be very careful with the YEAR and even the HALF YEAR or QUARTER YEAR.
I've never had a Pontiac but have been amazed at the history - found both McCarty-Angeles books at the Portland swap meet and it went from there. Seems they evolved from catering to special-cars (NASCAR and NHRA early on, pre-1963) mainly over the parts counter. NASCAR didn't care and NHRA didn't seem to care until 1961-1/2, when Ford added its over-the-counter tripower etc. So then NHRA formed O/SS for half a year, which turned into A/FX-C/FX from 1962-65, so unless the car came FACTORY, NHRA wouldn't allow it.
That (Jim you might know for sure) made Pontiac offer the 421sd in real factory cars for 1962 - as Chevy was starting to make Z-11 parts, probably getting ready to do the same for 1963).
Then the GM racing ban hit, so Pontiac put a few 421sd cars (Cats, Grand Prix, and 14 Tempests) out in early 1963 and that was it - Chevy made a few Z-11 cars but not enough for "stock" class so they were stuck in A/FX. McCarthy actually lists all the 1962-63 SD cars by VIN in his 2nd book so Jim you might get that if you don't have it already!
Pontiac ran the 421sd Tempests in A/FX.
The big Swiss Cheese Cat was light enough to run A/FX, but mostly I gather they ran in B/FX. I've asked a lot of places, why/how? My guess is the Cats were kinda front-heavy and so the Swiss Cat got ballasted up in the rear to make B/FX weight and so hooked much better.
Kinda like Ford for 1964 - Ford likely figured, well we have the "factory built" Thunderbolt for S/S, so why built a super-light LWG like we did in 1963 - just make a sorta-LWG for 1964 and run it in the heavier AA/S class.
By 1964, GM was kinda getting out of the "special cars for special people" games, just as Ford and Mopar got IN. Good luck to the average dude trying to buy a new LWG or Tbolt - or Race Hemi. And I ctedit Pontiac again at this point, because that's when the GTO hit the street. Cast rods, sure, wouldn't rev like a 427, but it was the right car for MOST street folks - and left everybody else playing catch up. Ford didn't really catch up until 1968-1/2, and Buick until 1970.
I have Gonkulated most of those hot combos for 1961-1965 in NHRA trim, which is way, way different than street / Muscle Car Shootout trim, like several seconds and 15-20mph different. It has been kinda fun, as in 1962, to "convert" them to street cars and see how they fare apples-to-apples, same tires, same "driver", same mufflers, etc. Maybe I will get to 1963 next. Oh wait, it's Tax Season. How could I forget?
I have dealt with over revved GTOs, those rods are about 5000-5200
|February 13 2018, 7:00 AM |
Much more and there would be trouble, but they revved so eagerly, with a 1.75 rod ratio and small and reltively mediocre heads, it was a great match. The 390 really didn't get on in street trim. Way too conservative on cam choices, and aluminum intakes like a CJ from the start with such cam and early heads with CJ valves would have made the 66 Fairlane right withthe GTO, they could rev and they had a really good rod ratio to port cross section, the unibody chassis should have been designed for at least CJ manifolds and had them standard on all GT cars. A 390 or 410 CJ with a cam like the Pontiacs had which was always in the 230ish range @.050 would have changed the story a lot, but woulda should coulda... HFII was just worried about 16 year olds wrapping them around phone poles, the insurance, and beating the world racing, he missed the parade. I have lost a few friends in those GM and Mopar missles. Morally he was right, but darn it its America, we should have had the choice.
|February 9 2018, 9:19 AM |
Bill and Jim I have to admit I have a soft spot for Pontiacs, my father bought a 64 Goat new and took it
Off the road and gave a lot of the big guys like Motion and Nunzie automotive ,Berijak Olds fits. By 1969
He held the national record in E/Stock or B Hotrod with a 12.02 Grumpy Jenkins pulled his 69 Camaro off the trailer
And ran 11.76 first pass. My dads car was called Underdog for anyone on the east coast that has heard of it. Later
On they bought a set of 62 super duty heads with Mickey Thompson crossram with Mickey Thompson triple rib aluminum
Rods and took that 12.02 to 10.56, always loved that car,so when I had the opertunity I bought one in 1994 and drove it till
2011 my everyday car although it was a lemans 326 2bbl ran and drove great. Unfortunately it rotted out so bad had a to part it out. One da6 I will get another one. By the way that 10.56 is with a 389.
|This message has been edited by 4828Stangman on Feb 9, 2018 9:27 AM|
About the time....
|February 9 2018, 12:19 PM |
Pontiac got completely out of the performance business, a pair of brothers opened a speed shop on Wayne Road in Livonia. They were big into Pontiac and got some of the stuff, I believe, that Pontiac had left over. They went on and developed such things as a dual quad manifold and a bunch of other stuff.
They got enough attention that they opened another shop on Michigan Avenue in Ypsilanti and at about that time they had a falling out. One took each shop and they continued but began to go down hill. Neither is any longer in existence but for a while, they were the place to go if you appreciated Pontiacs. Their name escapes me at the moment.
Re: About the time....
|February 9 2018, 2:43 PM |
KS... Could that have been Bill Sidwell ?
1956 Ford F-100 460/C6
1964 Galaxie 500/390
That name sounds....
|February 9 2018, 8:21 PM |
familiar, but not in that context. I have all kinds of useless facts swimming around in my head, but trying to call them up has become somewhat hit-and-miss.
Ken: was it Ace Wilson? See link........
|February 10 2018, 6:36 AM |
|February 10 2018, 6:36 AM |
|This message has been edited by machoneman on Feb 10, 2018 6:37 AM|
|February 10 2018, 7:51 AM |
Bobcats were very well known---even figuring as 'ringers' in a shoot-out done, I believe, by Car and Driver magazine, where they came out in first place---by magazine decision---even though they were equipped by a host of non-factory parts for optimization. The Ford and Mercury efforts, although faster and quicker, were downgraded because they had 'factory enhancement' from the extensive over-the-dealer's-parts-counter improvement-stores.
Car and Driver always was massively slanted toward GM and the GTO in particular.
The operation I spoke of, above, was a local private effort created by two brothers who owned a local speed shop.