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weight difference

February 10 2018 at 6:53 PM
Jerry Mooney  (Login rcar5077)
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Does anyone know what the difference in weight between the iron CJ manifold and a PI?

 
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WerbyFord
(Login werbyford)
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29 lb vs 81 lb

February 10 2018, 7:44 PM 

The 428pi intake is a heavy dog for aluminum, 29 lb, same as the 8v-LR intake.

The 428cj is probably the heaviest car intake ever made in the world at 80-82 lb, about 4 lb heavier than the 390 Z or S iron.

Ford figured, hey, let's put the aluminum on the big police tankers, where it doesn't matter, so the heat crossover can rot out as they idle for hours on end. And we'll put the heavy iron on the already nose-heavy unibody cars so they aren't in danger of pulling the front wheels off the ground. Right.

 
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Jeff H.
(Login wsu0702)
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Cast iron intakes were less expensive...

February 10 2018, 11:19 PM 

So for mass production (i.e. 428CJ) it was the better choice. 428PI's were very low volume. BTW the cast iron 428CJ intake out-performed the aluminum 428PI in Jay Brown's intake comparison testing.

 
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Jeff H.
(Login wsu0702)
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Re: Cast iron intakes were less expensive...

February 10 2018, 11:19 PM 



    
This message has been edited by wsu0702 on Feb 10, 2018 11:20 PM


 
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Brent Lykins
(Login blykins)
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I weighed a cast iron piece at 78 lbs....

February 11 2018, 3:53 AM 

...the last time I built a 428CJ.

Just finished a 428CJ with a PI, but didn't weigh it. Extremely light though, I'd say the 28-30 lbs estimate is fine.

 
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Royce
(Login RoyceP)
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In this case the weight is worth the difference in performance

February 11 2018, 7:04 AM 

The 428CJ cast iron intake is a better and very different design than the 428 PI intake. The cast iron CJ intake came in sixth overall in Jay's Great FE intake compare. The aluminum PI intake was well down the list in 12th place.

My 428CJ Cougar picked up a couple MPH and a couple tenths at the drag strip going from the aluminum PI to the stock cast iron manifold. I was a little surprised at the time, but a few years later Jay's dyno testing marathon revealed it was not a fluke.
[linked image]
1910 Model T Ford touring Red / Black
1914 Model T Ford touring Maroon / Black
1917 Model T Ford Torpedo runabout green
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1968 Mercury Cougar 428CJ Ram Air Red / Black/ Black
1968 Cougar XR7-G 390-2V X code Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2

 
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Bob
(Login machoneman)
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True but didn't Jay's intake comparo show the Streetmaster...

February 11 2018, 7:53 AM 

as the best single carb, non-tunnel ram intake? Get the weight savings and the best intake still available although it would be used and a tad hard to find.

With chops to Dr. Brown!

I have the following comments on these results:

1. Were all a bunch of idiots. NOBODY picked the Streetmaster to win. Most of us picked it to finish LAST. As an FE guy, Im ashamed of myself. Lets all keep this quiet, so that the price of Streetmasters on ebay doesnt go up (I bought mine for $115 two weeks ago LOL!)

2. Many of the dual planes make more low end torque than the Streetmaster, but by 3200 RPM it is passing most of them up, and by 3800 RPM it is making the most torque.

3. The Performer RPM actually makes more average HP, across the range, than the Streetmaster, by 0.6 HP. However, the Streetmaster makes more average torque, by about 1.5 foot pounds. Down low, the Performer RPM makes more torque, but up high, the Streetmaster makes more power.

4. The F427 is pathetic. The only mitigating factor may be the ports are so small that they could be limiting the performance. Ill find out more about this in my next intake shootout, where Ill be port matching all the intakes to 427MR heads. But the F427 will have to pick up a LOT to catch the other intakes.

5. The Blue Thunder was disappointing, to me anyway. I figured it would come on strong at the higher engine speeds, but it really didnt. Go figure.

Heres a final little tidbit of information. We get lots of questions on the FE Forum about which of these intakes will fit on the shaker equipped Mustangs. I had never had the collection of intakes next to each other for measurement purposes, so Shoe and I took the opportunity to look at this. The factory cast iron CJ intake and the BT intake have the carb in exactly the same spot. The PI intake has the carb moved towards the rear of the intake about 1/8. The F427 intake has the carb moved to the rear about 3/8. The Performer RPM has the carb moved to the rear of the intake by about ¾. Ive got to believe that this would cause a clearance problem with the shaker.

And the Streetmaster has the carb in exactly the same position as the cast iron CJ intake and the BT intake, so Ill bet the Streetmaster would work just fine with the shaker!

Yikes, what fun this was! You guys have no idea. Stay tuned for my next intake comparo, involving a total of 20 intakes, and all port matched to MR heads, to be tested on my 428CJ with a bigger cam, better heads, and more compression, coming this summer


Jay Brown


    
This message has been edited by machoneman on Feb 11, 2018 8:04 AM


 
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Ross
(Login Bad427stang)
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Gain and loss

February 11 2018, 8:08 AM 

Bob, you are right, and so is Royce, however, I think sometimes we get wrapped around the axle with dyno numbers

Jay's test on one engine showed the CJ intake at 398 HP / 475 TQ, that same engine was 399 HP / 470 TQ with the PI. HP higher, torque lower with the PI

The Streetmaster ported was 412 HP / 477 TQ, unported was 400/469. No doubt the ported SM was the king of peaks, but the others were so close I'd consider it inconclusive, on that engine, in that configuration and tune.

The same three calculated averages, has SM at 336/420 average (320/422 unported), CJ at 328/424 average and the PI 325/416

I do think that in the right combo, it's clear the ported SM will win a drag race, but on the street, (minus the porting) I'd say that all of those manifolds are within spitting distance

Royce please correct me if I am wrong, you were there, but if I remember right, Jay did not do any carb tuning optimize for the intakes either.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the CJ intake, it runs with the best of them, but if I balanced the weight, power, ease of installation, machining and repair, I'd be hard pressed to run any iron intake on anything but a resto


[linked image]
---------------------------------
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 445 cid FE, headers, RPM intake, 1000 HP series Holley, 4 speed


    
This message has been edited by Bad427stang on Feb 11, 2018 8:10 AM


 
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Royce
(Login RoyceP)
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We looked at Air Fuel ratio

February 11 2018, 8:59 AM 

It generally didn't change from one intake to the next when using the same carburetor on the same engine. Poorer power producing intakes tended to have poorer BSFC, but the A/F would remain constant.

My own testing revealed the cast iron intake was clearly superior on the drag strip, years before Jay's testing. The dyno in this case backed up real life track experience.

Jay's dyno mule was a typical enthusiast build with aftermarket cam, pistons, valve springs and running dyno headers.

My car was a Factory Stock Muscle Car Drag legal car with stock cast iron exhaust manifolds, stock carb jetting, and a Comp 268H-10 cam with stock valvetrain. Clearly the cast iron CJ intake was better both on the dyno and on the track.

[linked image]
[linked image]
1910 Model T Ford touring Red / Black
1914 Model T Ford touring Maroon / Black
1917 Model T Ford Torpedo runabout green
1915 Model T Ford touring Black of course!
1968 Mercury Cougar 428CJ Ram Air Red / Black/ Black
1968 Cougar XR7-G 390-2V X code Red / Black
1968 Cougar GTE 427 Augusta Green / Saddle
http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15029/50071-2

 
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Ross
(Login Bad427stang)
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Thanks Royce, good info! n/m

February 11 2018, 9:48 AM 

n/m
[linked image]
---------------------------------
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 445 cid FE, headers, RPM intake, 1000 HP series Holley, 4 speed

 
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David J
(Login JamesonRacing)
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I have been and will continue to run the iron CJ intake on my F250

February 11 2018, 10:14 AM 

Definitely heavy, but in a 4700 lb truck, the weight is not so much an issue.

Just seems more truckish to have an all-iron engine in a classic 66 Ford Camper Special.

All my other FEs have aluminum intakes though.
dajameson427 at hotmail dot com

66 Fairlane GT Silver Blue "BRUTE" Genesis 496/C4 - 10.01@132mph
66 Fairlane GT Nightmist Blue Survival 465FE/TKO600 - 11.41@122mph
66 Fairlane GTA Convertible Antique Bronze 418FE/C6
66 Fairlane 500 Station Wagon Candy Apple Red 390/C6
66 F250 Camper Special Rangoon Red 445/T19
65 Falcon Futura Turquoise 5.0L/AOD


[linked image]

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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I think the Holley Street Dominator is the biggest sleeper in Jay's book.

February 11 2018, 8:16 AM 

It made more power than the Edelbrock Streetmaster when tested in the same state of modification on the same engine. The two intakes are so similar that Jay decided to stay with only one on the higher hp engines. At least I think that's what he did. So the Holley Street Dominator wasn't tested on the higher hp engines like the Streetmaster was.

JMO,

paulie

 
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Ross
(Login Bad427stang)
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That is my favorite street intake

February 11 2018, 8:20 AM 

A little rubbing and a spacer, you get all the power of an RPM and the carb sits in the right place.

I have a SM on my little bench build 390 and it runs great, but when my 445 goes back it, I will likely track one down and work it a little instead of the RPM
[linked image]
---------------------------------
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 445 cid FE, headers, RPM intake, 1000 HP series Holley, 4 speed

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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Yes sir, and even with a one inch spacer it's the same height as an RPM without a spacer.

February 11 2018, 8:48 AM 

I also think it would make a nice intake for a street driven centrifugally blown FE in ported form. Low profile to keep it under a stock hood, and single plane intakes generally work well under boost.

JMO,

paulie


    
This message has been edited by Paul_Lovett on Feb 11, 2018 8:48 AM


 
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Jack
(Login jackmikunda)
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Cast intake on a diet?

February 11 2018, 9:08 AM 

Has anyone ever tried to take any weight off of a Cast CJ intake? Is it even possible to remove enough material to gain anything?

 
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Anonymous
(Login 428SCjHardtops)
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Re: Cast intake on a diet?

February 11 2018, 2:11 PM 

I used a 4 inch cut off wheel on a grinder and cut the exhaust crossover out and some big bumps on the back of the intake .Along with the pan on the bottom it took out 10 lbs of weight .With a milling machine a few more pounds would be possible .
69 R code Mustang coupe 68 1/2 R code Mustang coupe 70 ram air Drag Pack Cougar 67 505 F.A.S.T legal Fairlane [linked image][linked image][linked image][linked image]

 
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Bill Ballinger
(Login 65billgal)
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I have Mario428's Street Dominator that he welded on and widened the port pinches

February 12 2018, 7:45 PM 

and got into the mid 10's with a low compression 428 in a Fairmont. I put it on my 394 and it absolutely finished that engine, after porting my heads and all of the fussing filing, oil passage drilling you could punch it at 3000 and it pulls clean as it anything to 7000 I haver seen, it is a match made in heaven. 452 lbs ft and 488 hp with just a small solid with the lash light and some custom "improvement by the cam maker" 107.5 LSA 230.5 @.050 and .536 at the valve 294S valve springs. When I put that intake on it it was like adding a blower, the stoutest small bore FE I have had with regualar guy parts.

Holley SD forever!

 
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Joe-JDC
(Login Joe-JDC)
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Ported Streetmaster was highest torque of all 4V intakes on

February 11 2018, 2:40 PM 

on the stroker engine, and the only one to top 600 lb/ft and made 633 hp, only 18 less than the Victor. A well ported Streetmaster is the "sleeper" of all those intakes, IMO. Joe-JDC

 
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paulie
(Login Paul_Lovett)
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I think the Streetmaster received additional port matching compared to the Holley.....

February 12 2018, 6:28 PM 

Street Dominator.....on the 427 Stroker engine, Joe.

As far as I can tell when the two intakes are compared apples to apples the Street Dominator is slightly better. Maybe I'm missing something?

paulie

 
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Joe-JDC
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My personal Streetmaster I let Jay use for dyno test. n/m

February 14 2018, 6:01 PM 



    
This message has been edited by Joe-JDC on Feb 14, 2018 6:02 PM


 
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