The real (German) name of Arminius was not Erminameraz, but simply Hermann. Even today a common German first name, meaning something like leader or nobleman. In the Netherlands, too (Herman).
Herr = lord, mann = man.

I agree with you Pjotr. Also another variation of the name Hermann, could be Hermanneric.

I realise that in the German speaking world Arminius is known as 'Hermann', but this is a convention which dates back to the eighteenth century, when Romantic writers wanted to 'Germaniscise' his name. It definitely isn't historical.

There are two possibilities regarding the name 'Arminius'. One is that it is a purely Latin name adopted by Arminius when he served with Tiberius, much as his brother adopted the Latin name 'Flavus'. The other is that it's a Latinised form of a native Germanic name.

If it's the latter, it could be reconstructed a number of ways, but I've chosen to reconstruct the first element as '*Ermana-' which is a hypothetical West Germanic form of the Gothic cognate prototheme 'Airmana-'. The ending is trickier, but I chose an ending which would be likely to be Latinised as '-ius' and was still a duothematic Germanic element. I chose the short nymic theme '-meraz' which is a cognate with the Gothic '-mers'.

Whatever his name was, it certainly *wasn't* 'Hermann' since that's modern German and nothing like the language of the time.

Sorry Frank, but 'Hermanaric' is a completely different name. The Gothic form was '*Airmanarieks' and this was the name of the Goth king the Romans called Ermanaric, the one who was defeated by the Huns in 376 AD.

The first element of his name is likely to be a cognate with the first element of Arminius' name though - 'Airmana-/'Ermina' = 'high, noble'. The element 'Herr' = 'lord' is a later, more modern form of Germanic and I haven't seen it in any West Germanic names of this period. As I've pointed out below, calling Arminius 'Hermann' is a very modern convention.

Further to what I've already written on the subject above, some may be interested to read this page on Arminius and his name from the University of Osnabruck site on the battle (in German). On the question of his being called 'Hermann' this site says explicitly:


Sicher ist nur, daß der Name Arminius mit dem Namen "Hermann" nichts zu tun hat. Diese Bezeichnung hat Arminius erst im Zeitalter des Humanismus bekommen.


Which, roughly translated, means that Arminius' name was definitely not Hermann and that he only came to be referred to in this way relatively recently.

I'm emphasising this point because over the last few months I've received several e-mails regarding my West Germanic reconstruction of his name and insisting that he was called 'Hermann'. While my reconstruction is hypothetical (it could just as easily have been '*Erminaz' for example, though the '-meraz' dueterotheme is implied by his father's name) it is based on linguistic knowledge of the type of Germanic probably spoken at the time and extrapolated from recorded names of the time and our knowledge of the evolution of the West Germanic branch of languages.

Just because it isn't familiar to speakers of modern German doesn't mean it is some 'fantasy name'. It would have sounded very familiar to the Cherusci.

Elsewhere Frank wrote:

Tim,
Your arguement sounds very convincing. However I have seen the name "Hermann" recorded in the Domesday Book (1086AD) of William the Conqueror in England, (also known as Wilhelm, Willem, Guillaume, depending from which part of the world you come from.) Refer to the Bayeaux Tapestry. I am not sure if it is anglo-Saxon or Scando- Norman or whether the individual was a mercenary free booter in the employ of the Norman or Anglo Saxon armies coming from somewhere else on the continent. So its probably more than likely that this name was in existence before 1086 AD. This is a millenium after Arminius' time I know, but I would definitely not agree or conclude that it is a "modern" name. How far the name goes back is uncertain. I will take your word that it was not in use then.


Frank, I've moved this to the appropriate thread - try not to create a new thread for each post, it tends to clutter up the board.

I didn't actually say that it was a 'modern name' just that it only started being used as a Germanicised name for Arminius in modern times and that it wasn't his name originally. 'Hermann' has been around in various West Germanic languages for some centuries, but there is no evidence of it being used in the first century AD. In fact I can't think of any evidence of it all prior to the central Middle Ages.


Also did you receive my e-mail message to you with the attached files and illustrations of: Germanic warriors/bas reliefs/and the plaster of Paris caste of the coin bearing the head of Varus. What are your comments? Excuse the length of the e-mail and the few times I digressed. Also I got your clarification about the bust of arminius housed in The Capitoline Museum in Rome. Thanks for the info.


I did get the e-mail but haven't had a chance to reply.


P.S. Do we get any pay or recognition for helping you like this when you make your first million, you greedy sneaky bastard.


I strongly doubt I'll make any money from this project at all, but I'm sure we can sort it out in court when the time comes. g

O.K. I get your meaning. My mother a German from Nurnberg (reddish hair and blue eyes) also gives his prefix as sounding like air-
ayr- . The English letters 'er' in the English pronunciation of the name Erwin are in German sounded as the word 'air'.
English: Er-win
German: Air-win

The name: Erminameraz would in the high German pronunciation sound like:
Air-minameraz
The spelling 'Er' in German is sounded as 'Air'.

I agree with you, Tim. Herman is a modern variant which derived from medieval naming conventions.
It is possible that the first nymic element Her- derives from goth. *Harja-, But this would have been changed to C(h)ario- in Roman transcription, since the /h/ in all Germanic dialects was pronounced quite strong compared to aspiration in Greek and Latin.
To call Arminius Hermann is but a result of wishful thinking that the first freedomfighter hero should have had a name that resembled his greatness.


Lucilla Cornelia

OK, Hermann is a modern German nationalistic invention for 'Arminuis'. So, what's wrong with the modern German name 'Armin'?

Cheers,

Robert Vermaat
http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk

Robert wrote:

OK, Hermann is a modern German nationalistic invention for 'Arminuis'. So, what's wrong with the modern German name 'Armin'?


Well, it's modern German for a start. ;>
As I understand it 'Armin' is a modern form of a shortened version of a much earlier Germanic name which had the 'Irmin-/'Ermana-' prototheme. Unless I've misunderstood your question, I can't see how it would make sense for a first century Germanic character to have a modern German name, which is why the first century Germanic characters all have first century(ish) Germanic names.
Cheers,




Tim O'Neill
'Clades Variana' Webmaster.

From what I have heard, Arminius is most likely a Romanized version of a germanic name. Arminius was not a Latin name, unlike Flavus, ie there were no Romans walking around named Arminius. This of course supports the theory that it is a latin version of a germanic name.

I always laugh when Arminius is referred to as Hermann. It just sounds so wrong! It is obiviously a modern name applied arbitrarily, as pointed out previously

Hermann - War-man was called Arminius by the Romans either during his lifetime or certainly after it. He may have in fact been called Sigfried. The Sigfried of Teutoberg forest and the Sigfried of Wagnerian Opera and Germanic legend could well be one and the same. If you look at all the names of the men in his family. Sigried makes sense. What he was called then and what we would call him now is irrelevent anyway because we speak modern English. Christopher Columbus was actually Christobold Columb - who cares. We speak English - a modern Germanic language, all because of the barbarian - Neolithic - sanctuary in the centre of Europe, all thanks to Hermann/Arminius what ever his name was at the time of Teutoberg forest in 9AD. The pronunciation of any names from that era is speculation anyway. Tiberius was pronounced tea-bear-ee-us. Caesar was pronounced kaiser.....who cares?

Hermann means War-man. It is a title. Arminius is the latinised version of Hermann. What he was called at the time will never be known. Tacitus wrote of Arminius years after the fact. Irman is also a variation of Herman. Besides, thanks to Hermann/Arminius or whatever you want to call him, we speak modern English, a Germanic language. A barbarian sanctuary was preserved in the centre of Europe that lead to England, English, America, the fall of Rome and every war and political event in the World since 9 AD. The actual name and pronunciation of the name of Hermann is irrelevant. Christopher Columbus was actually Christobold Colomb. Tiberius was pronounced Teabeareeus. Caesar was pronounced Kaiser. Who cares? It is all just nit picking.

Avete,
sorry, but Hermann has absolutely nothing to do with Arminius. Perhaps it is not uninteresting that Tacitus also has the form Armenius (=the Armenian). So the man's name is probably a kind of nickname, his real name being too twisting for Roman tongues. It might well have been Sigufridu Sigumaris sunu - Siegfried son of Segimer. The problem for Romans must have been the g and d in the name which were not spoken like their modern equivalents, but more like "Siyoofrithoo". Simply horribly barbarian for cultivated Romans.
By the way: Hermann would have been something like Chariomannus in Latin transskription, the firt part of the name meaning "Heer" in modern German (=army-man).
Salvete
Frederic (= the king of peace)

Frederic wrote:


sorry, but Hermann has absolutely nothing to do with Arminius.


There are solid linguistic and historical reasons to be able to state this with confidence. Some people just won't be told, for some reason.


Perhaps it is not uninteresting that Tacitus also has the form Armenius (=the Armenian).


I'm not surprised if there are variant forms in the MSS of Tacitus, but this doesn't mean that this was his name. Why would anyone call a Cheruscian Germanic "the Armenian"?


So the man's name is probably a kind of nickname, his real name being too twisting for Roman tongues.


Well, maybe.


It might well have been Sigufridu Sigumaris sunu - Siegfried son of Segimer.


Or it could be any number of other things. The fact that it appears to be a Latinisation of an "*Ermana-" stemmed Proto-Germanic name makes it most likely that it is something with that proto-theme. Not all Germanic names within a given family were alliterative and the idea that Arminius was the "Siegfried" of later legend is largely a flight of academic fancy with little or nothing to support it.


The problem for Romans must have been the g and d in the name which were not spoken like their modern equivalents, but more like "Siyoofrithoo". Simply horribly barbarian for cultivated Romans.


They probably mangled his name, but there is no evidence that *Sigifrithaz (which would have been the Proto-Germanic form at the time of Arminius) was his name. And the pronunciation would have taken a hard "g", not the much later NW Gmc "y" sound you posit.


By the way: Hermann would have been something like Chariomannus in Latin transskription, the firt part of the name meaning "Heer" in modern German (=army-man).


And in Proto-Germanic that name would be "*Harjamannz", which doesn't give 'Arminius" as easily as "Ermanameraz" or "Ermanaz". This is why the latter two choices are the most likely Germanic forms of his name, judging from the Latin.
Cheers,

Tim O'Neill
Clades Variana Webmaster

Tim:
>>Why would anyone call a Cheruscian Germanic "the Armenian"?<<

maybe because of a similar reason, why Romans called each other Germanicus or Africanus. Is there actually a possibility that Arminius fought in Armenia and got this name as kind of "ensign"?

Marcus asked:


Is there actually a possibility that Arminius fought in Armenia and got this name as kind of "ensign"?


Well, there's always the possibility, but there's certainly no evidence of this. It's the kind of thing you'd expect at least one of the sources to at least mention, but there's no indication of it.

I'd say it's most likely that his name is a Latinised form of his Germanic name.
Cheers,

Tim O'Neill
Clades Variana Webmaster

Marcus asked:


Is there actually a possibility that Arminius fought in Armenia and got this name as kind of "ensign"?


Well, there's always the possibility, but there's certainly no evidence of this. It's the kind of thing you'd expect at least one of the sources to at least mention, but there's no indication of it.

I'd say it's most likely that his name is a Latinised form of his Germanic name.
Cheers,

Tim O'Neill
Clades Variana Webmaster

Strangely enough I have just come across a reference on a university course video to German as well as Gaulish troops being employed by the Roman client King "Herod the Great" in Judaea before his death in 4BC.

If it is correct and a suitable occassion arose then I suppose there is just a possibility that at least some of these men may have been involved in action alongside the Romans against the Armenians and then returned to their homelands after Herod's death. That would have made them available for involvement in the revolt although I would not suggest that this was a really likely reason for Armenius' name.

Unfortunately I do not currently know where the original reference comes from - if I track anything else down I'll post again.

Melvadius

Wow, great forum!

Maybe this is far-fetched, but why not put it the other way around. Maybe Hermann comes from Arminius, leaving the Arminius origin an enigma. All of Europe was influenced by Roman culture, and I can not believe that the Germans didn't know of Roman persons, titles, culture and history. Like with Keiser, Tsar and Caesar. Why not Arminius -> Hermann too...

Also, Hermann and Arminius in Norwegian is very similar. Her, means hær (haer), means army, (Armi)nius (army) leading Arminius to simply mean an army man or warrior. Or to be very norse, a free (independent) warrior. Maybe Arminius is just a bad translation from German to Latin. In those days, and later of course, a name had a meaning, maybe more than a value in itself. Why else all the translations...? A very common viking name Atle, comes from Attila the Hun, living centuries earlier. I reckon they knew their history... Why shouldn't the Germans?

Even "Arminius" may be wrong. Tacitus also writes "Armenius", i.e. the Armenian. This might be a Roman nickname, like his brother's name Flavus (after the colour of his hair: reddish blond). So nobody knows the real name of the man. Perhaps it was Sigufridu Sigumaris Sunu (anyhow: according to Germanic folklore Siegfried slew the big worm (lintwurm) - and the marching column of 3 legions with auxiliaries and baggage train certainly was a big worm!

Spoon_DEF wrote:


Maybe this is far-fetched, but why not put it the other way around. Maybe Hermann comes from Arminius, leaving the Arminius origin an enigma.


Well, this is actually the case in a sense. <No-one called him "Hermann" prior to the Eighteenth Century, when someone decided that was a likely original German form of the Romanised name "Arminius". They were clearly wrong on linguistic grounds, but "Hermann" did come from "Arminius".

Though I gather that's not what you meant.


All of Europe was influenced by Roman culture, and I can not believe that the Germans didn't know of Roman persons, titles, culture and history. Like with Keiser, Tsar and Caesar. Why not Arminius -> Hermann too...


Er, okay, but he is called "Arminius" in the earliest Roman sources, including ones like Vellius Paterculus, which are roughly contemporary with him.



Also, Hermann and Arminius in Norwegian is very similar. Her, means hær (haer), means army, (Armi)nius (army) leading Arminius to simply mean an army man or warrior. Or to be very norse, a free (independent) warrior.


Yes, they are "similar" but similar doesn't mean connected. In this case the monotheme in Arminius name may sound like the modern German and Norwegian words for 'army', but the Primitive Germanic form of that word - "*harja" - can't give the Lation ised monotheme "Armin-". This is why "*Ermana-" is most likely and why the whole idea that his name was "Hermann" or anything like it is Eighteenth Century fantasy.


Maybe Arminius is just a bad translation from German to Latin.


This is almost certainly the case (though I think you mean "Germanic" rather than "German", since modern German wasn't going to exist for another 1800 years).
Cheers,


Tim O'Neill
Clades Variana Webmaster

I'am under the impression that the first person to make the connection between the name Arminus and Hermann was Martin Luther in the 16th century. at least that is what the book The battle that Stopped Rome, says to the best of my recollection.

Regarding Siegfried being Arminus, I've hearc that one but frankly I can't see it in the German Epic the Neilberlung.

Pierre