Hi! The recent rave on EATG has caught my interest on building a sniper inspired dio. I hope you could give me information regarding German snipers. Are there any sniper aces with matching dramatic exploits (ala Wittman-tank aces)? Well I've come across book reviews from Amazon.com of German sniper aces who served in the Eastern front but I am really interested in doing a Western Europe late war setting. Any form of input will be highly appreciated and greatly valued.

*One thing puzzles me, some reviews for EATG in the internet says that the movie was not historically accurate because according to "historical accounts" it was the German sniper who got his Russian counterpart as opposed to the movie. I really do not know, but I hope you folks might supply me with the right information to my querry.

Thank you very much in advance!

Christopher

Christopher,

While not all the info you were chasing. I hope it helps with the "who killed who" saga. The snippit is from the website below.

http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/snipers.html

The whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in
the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated
on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda.

Regards,

Keiran

Hello all,
A thread a few months back (but not necessarily on M-L) told of a story during the Russo-Finnish conflict that is very similar to EATG, and the conjecture is that the soviets stole the story and (naturally) made the ace sniper a russian...

JM .02 cents----THALL

I was just watching the History Channel and a show was on about snipers. It said that there was a Russian sniper named Vassili Zitzev(? on the spelling) and a German sniper named Major Walter Koning and that the russian did infact kill Koning. Zitzev had killed 40 germans in a matter of days and Major Koning who was the instructor at the german sniper school was sent to kill him. Anyway the movie is almost complety correct to the real story as far a I know.

The name of the man was Zaitsev. Although the episode featuring Major Koning in person may be fiction, Zaitsev was a man of flesh with a total score of hits exceeding 100 by the end of the war.
The Russians did suffer heavy casualties from Finnish snipers, as they did from German, which does not mean they did not have their own snipers to write about.
Regards,

Nickolay

Chris,

I would have sent this further follow up off line as it is not particularly model related, but you didn't leave a e mail address.

From the following site comes the segment below:

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/stalingrad/ra'ttenkrieg.asp

"A rather improbable legend has been built around Zaitsev and his exploits. The publicity arising from his shooting skills allegedly prompted the Germans to send a Super-sniper of their own to kill him. By some accounts, this man was a Major named Koenig. By others, an SS Obersturmbannfuehrer by the name of Heinz Thorwald. In either event, a classic 3 day duel between Zaitsev and his opponent results in the same outcome. Zaitsev puts a bullet between the Germans eyes, killing him instantly.

This story does not seem to be supported by either German or Soviet archives. Reports concerning sniper actions by the 62nd Army contain no mention of this classic legend. German muster rolls of the Wehrmacht and SS reveal no officer by the name of Koenig or Thorwald posted to Stalingrad. In all probability, this account was a fabrication of some apparatchik in the Soviet propaganda bureau. Zaitsev did single-handedly shoot well over 140 German soldiers before his career was ended by the explosion of a land mine in Jan. of 1943, which permanently blinded him."


(My words again)
While the sniper Zaitsev was undoubtly a bit of a legend, the validity of the duel story has to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially remembering the critical nature of the Stalingrad battle and the efforts to defend at all costs.

Certainly such an event would have made it's way through the Soviet or German chain of command. Or even in the diaries or soldiers serving in the battle.

Potentially even a Soviet recollection may be more biased towards events described from newspapers and their moral raising(sic) political officers. The lack of any evidence from the German side (normally very thorough) in terms of movement orders or even scuttle butt(rumour/ propaganda) for anybody resembling a counter sniper has to raise more than a few questions. Even the debrief of German officers captured at Stalingrad failed to raise anything relating to this issue, aside from info derived from Soviet sources.

Many aspects of combat and indeed history are written by the victor, but does that make them correct? But hey at the end of the day evidence may surface that will prove me totally wrong.

I hope this helps a bit more Chris & Christopher.
Regards,

Keiran

Thank you to all those who gave their insight but I do hope to receive some info on German snipers. Please, I really need your help good folks!!!

Thanks again,

Christopher

Hi fellow,

the only good book about german sniper war what I have and will highly recommend is: "Im Auge des Jägers"(in the eye of the hunter).
This book is a biography about Franz Karner a sniper of the german "Wehrmacht", and as far as I know only in german language avilable.
ISBN: 3-932077-12-1 and issued from VS-Books (www.vs-books.de).
It describe the live of Franz Karner who enter army service in 1943, with 18 years, on the eastern front.
He was a very highly decoreted german sniper in the ranks of the 3th german mountain unit.
This book tell you storys about unbelivable, nigtmare and horrorable facts of war (which some terrible fotos!).
May this book could change your mind about war!

with my best regards form Austria

Isidor

Yuri Zeitsev did exist. He did kill a German Major sent to dispatch him. Some dramatic license, however, was taken which I didn't find harmed the story. Here are some corrections which are from Toland's book on Stalingrad.

1. Zeitsev was not just a "grunt", he came from an elite scout sniper unit, I have no information as to whether he really was a wolf poacher growing up.

2. Zeitsev did Kill the Major when the Major was in a fighting postion, with Yuri in a fighting position. The shot is said to have gone through Koenig's scope, not at 20 paces at a train station.

3. Zeitsev was badly wounded by a mine towards the end of Stalingrad.

4. One of Zeitsev's girlfriends, also a sniper, lost all four limbs to a landmine survived and had more than five children with...well...not Zeitsev; she heard Yuri was dead. All the while he had taken up with a woman who had all four limbs. Don't know which one Rachel Weiss was supposed to portray

4. Kruschev was not balding and white haired during Stalingrad (but I liked Hoskins portrayal). I believe he was also a non-uniformed Gestap... I mean KGB guy.

5. Russians had been sniping since, probably, the Russo-Japanese , and without question during WWI. So, they had a fairly advanced sniper system on 22/6/41, and forward.

There is no question that Vassili (not Yuri) Zaitsev was an actual Red Army sniper, and a very skilled one. I think its also fair to say that while Soviet wartime propaganda may somewhat crudely exaggerate his exploits, it doesn't diminish the facts. He was a highly skilled, and dare I say it, heroic guy. Anyone who doubts that, please take one step forward to volunteer to serve in the Infantry in a furball like Stalingrad. Anyone who did their duty in combat deserves our respect.

There was also a sniper in the unit called Tania with whom Zaitsev had an affair. This was not uncommon in the Red Army, with its high proportion of female personnel.

Finally, Nikta Kruschev was not a member of the KGB, which did not exist at that time. At that time the KGB's forerunner was known as the NKVD. Regardless, Kruschev was a member of neither of these organizations. He was the son of a Ukrainian miner; during the 1930s he was construction manager of the Moscow subway system, and during WWII a member of the Military Council of the Stalingrad Front. In Red Army practice, Fronts (aka Army Groups) were co-commanded by a military specialist, a very senior political officer, and the chief of staff. In this case Yeremenko was the Front Commander and Kruschev was the commissar. By all the accounts I've read he did a very competent job, although I do not believe he ever entered the city during the battle, as is implied in the movie.

I do think the movie overlooked a great opportunity to depict a truly great WWII commander, Chuikov.