Ever have a shooter that at every match, at every course, they are protesting targets because they "saw the paddle move back"? Then comes the comments that "These targets aren't adjusted/maintained right for sub 12fpe guns" with a face that's all tense and flush red like they are about to lose it? When no one else shooting the targets, at sub 12fpe or above, are protesting target failure, whaddya do?
Look at the temper tantrum as a sideshow entertainment that is free to all that paid to shoot the match to enjoy as a hot head acts up marching up and down the range all day to complain about the targets to match officials? Granted it is entertaining and hilarious on one level but annoying on another, lol...
What do you guys and gals do at your clubs when a shooter like that shows up after having explained "split pellets" a million times, showing them their split pellet impacts on a freshly painted/taped paddle with a corresponding mark on the rim of the kill zone.
I know lots of us think/would like to think that we can clean a course every time we shoot but the reality is we can't. Complaining everytime a target doesn't fall and citing its faulty is insane...appreciate your feedback.
Regards,
Tony
This message has been edited by Trojan1994 on Nov 21, 2009 12:09 PM
The UN is bound to start Whining !!. Our "EX" Prime Minister Helen Clark will be right at the Front like She used to be when She was a Whining Protester during the Vietnam War.
..that leads to the underground electromagnet that keeps his targets from falling? It's becoming obvious that while the other 12 foot pound shooters aren't having problems, but he is, that the range officers are out to get him. (OK...can't get the little smily face thing to work, but one goes here).
Seriously, there are guys like him in every sport... ignore him. If it costs a shooter, the rest of the shooters will be more relaxed and enjoy the match more.
This message has been edited by gubb33ps on Nov 21, 2009 12:23 PM
Now those guys can whine! Bad bird, too fast, too slow, too high, too low, someone talked, someone passed gas, they know them all. And guys walking around behind them making any sort of noise (let alone griping) are quickly run off.
He may be funny to you, but lots of Trap shooters have no sense of humor at all, and don't cotton to that sort of stuff when their at their post.
Get him started, his new squad mates will sort him out in no time.......
Weld a target shut, don't tell him, then have him start shooting to see if his gun will trip it. Gradually move it closer and closer. Eventually, the ricochet will hit him in the leg and then he'll have something to really whine about. Or you could be a bit kinder and just tell him he needs more practice, preferably at another range. (Like the Himalayas.)
and unfortunately it cannot be used for any other purpose than its original intended use of which I cannot reveal becuase it is classified" and for MD eyes only.
My solution would be to squad that person with myself if it is know ahead of time that the person is that way. That way no one else has to hear him whine, and since I am the match director, I have the final say in target function/malfunction.
Good Advice Paul, unfortunately, its becoming a situation where the MD
November 21 2009, 1:19 PM
nor anyone else wants to be paired up with the guy. He has exhibited aggressive and uncalled for behavior that quite honestly could destroy our club with the long time shooters not wanting to be around the guy and our concern that him acting up with new shooters will not make them return. We do get shooters that are under 12 trying out FT and other disciplines at our club and we clearly do not want to erode the future of airgun shooting...thanks for the feedback.
Often MD's have more than enough on their plates and to add babysitting duties is a bit much.
As a MD heres what you get (Paul let me know what i left out) - lush compensation, the time & commitment it takes to be the first to arrive and the last to leave, the patience to deal with the entitlements expressed by some and the arm-chair quarterbacking of others, the thankless task of taking care of target & range maintenance and now the privilege of shooting of with the worst of the worst. I see no faster way of finishing off a MD and its no wonder why many snap or clubs go private.
I think a better way is to make sure everyone understands that its their club and the problem person (much like target checking)is everyones problem. Taking ownership of the club and its property and problems, good and bad, is the responsibility of its members. Being a good member is more than just showing up, shooting and then leaving.
The "club" is everyones and you will get out of it what you put in. A MD is there to help but don't keep piling up the stinky poop on his doorstep and expect him to shovel faster or tell him he's shoveling wrong, get in and lend a hand.
"I think a better way is to make sure everyone understands that its their club and the problem person (much like target checking)is everyones problem."
Sounds like Kevin just authorized a blanket party with socks full of pellets.
Of course obvious answer if this is the only guy whining, then it is his problem....
----
Obviously a gnat bumping into target won't make it fall. So it does raise the issue of what is the minimum energy to drop the target. (Regardless it is a "fair" contest since it is the same for all. It isn't like you adjusted it harder for him alone.)
Assume the position of hit is irrelevant since target is on lever arm. Could you use a multipump at point blank range to verify that say 4-6 ft-pds (pick some number) or so would drop the target? (ie number of pumps would give somewhat of an energy range...)
----------
Third alternative
Ask him if he'd like to be range master next time so that you can enjoy yourself and just shoot....
Re: We've got one hardcore springer shooter that drops the same targets with his R7!!!
November 21 2009, 3:22 PM
NICE!! R7? And why not? None over 45 yards, and most 25 yards or less. Sounds like my kind of guy. 14-18 fpe. We don't need no stinken 14-18 fpe! I'd be awful tempted to use my 300S. Almost as fast as my tuned R7, but with a little more needed weight.
Tony why don't you do this? Move your range out here to Eastern Pennsylvania next to the New Jersey border. Bring California's fair weather with you. Leave California's politics there. Leave the whiner there. You would have my undying gratitude. Surely that would be sufficient.
Don't forget your guns.
We don't seem to be able to check crime, so why not legalize it and then tax it out of business? - Will Rogers
I assume you are referring to my post about moving the venue to Eastern PA? The RWS 75 sounds like a good idea. Be sure to let us know how it works out.
Dale
We don't seem to be able to check crime, so why not legalize it and then tax it out of business? - Will Rogers
just a few miles from the PA/NJ border. Carlisle is probably a 2-1/2 hour drive west of me. Just guessing. If I was ever there, it was when I worked for Sperry Rail Service over 34 years ago. No way could I remember every town I went through while working for them. Job took me from Naples, Florida to Churchill, Manitoba on the Hudson Bay and from NYC to Las Vegas although I didn't get to travel in the far west since I lived on the East Coast, and the company tried to keep me east of the Mississippi River. Probably been there as I went through Harrisburg a few times while working for them.
We don't seem to be able to check crime, so why not legalize it and then tax it out of business? - Will Rogers
The fellas at Yegua went through the course with a 4fpe
November 21 2009, 2:04 PM
match pistol and tested each target for the Nationals. I know that took some extra time and effort to do that. Despite, We still had a few targets that malfunctioned. I felt they did a very good job setting up the course however. They were quick and resposive to the complaints and replaced the targets if needed. Scotty even had to take a swim in the pond to fix one of them. Their efforts made the match flow very well. I am sure it would have been a lot more if they had not went the extra mile to test them.
This message has been edited by AirSmithCA on Nov 21, 2009 2:14 PM
I was going to say tell him everyone shoots at the same targets so no one else has an advantage. If that didn't work I was going to say tell him this is "field" target simulating hunting. If his gun can't trip a target it couldn't kill a squirrel. If that didn't work I was going to say pull him aside like you were going to let him in on some major secret that he couldn't discuss with others and tell him the range was having dificultly lately with "gravity gusts" (it's a geological phenomena). But Tim nailed it. Tell him the range has an opening in maintenance and you think he'd be perfect.
P.S. If any guy walked downrange when it was hot while I was RSO, he'd be gone and not welcome back.
This message has been edited by RockDoc65 on Nov 21, 2009 1:51 PM
If he is becoming verbally abusive and disruptive on the range
November 21 2009, 1:42 PM
The range officer should take him aside and warn him that he is heading for expulsion. I don't shoot in matches, but can only imagine what this character must be like to shoot along side of. I do know that at my firearms range, he would have been asked to cool down or leave, maybe permanently if he didn't take the hint. Unless he owns the land, it's up to you.
If the Match Directors feel the shooter is a problem . . .
November 21 2009, 1:54 PM
and they are too disruptive for the others to enjoy the match then they should tell them they cannot participate. There is no substitution for good leadership! In my own case, I was asked to participate more in the course set-up by checking all the targets.
I had expressed my discontent with a number of targets over the course of a few matches and some felt I was being too whiny. When this was brought to my attention I was asked by the Match Director to check all the targets after they were set up. Per the request I did exactly that. I found 4 targets that were malfunctioning. I fixed them... ehe result, ... Our course was cleaned for the first time ever. (not by myself)
The truth is it's a tough job to set up all those targets and we have many hands that help do it. If there is a complainer, get them involved with the set-up so they can see first hand what goes into it. They may not be so quick to blame the target if they got to check them all themselves. Their efforts will benefit everyone participating and it turns a negative into a positive.
I'll be there early, too. We gotta do this thing together. Like all team-oriented tasks/missions, things run smoothly when everybody pulls their weight.
I appreciate that Bro ... and you are right that it takes . ...
November 22 2009, 2:25 AM
all of our contribution to make our club the best it can be. You have been an asset and an example of that too. As Mr. Labashe has said "Your prescence enhances our experience".
Sounds good.. Just be there by 8:30 am to help set up
November 21 2009, 5:28 PM
so we have time to check them all. I am not "whiny" about who I shoot with so whomever it is I will extend them the same friendliness that our "Gentleman's sport" is expeted to.
LOL, I'm always on kitchen patrol since I don't get up early...
November 21 2009, 8:57 PM
As I talked it over with Kevin & others, its easier that I buy and bring food and cook it since I don't get up early as others on weekends...but as you know I still help set up and take down...write match reports, take pics, etc...Maybe we'll get you guys some inspector vests?!?!
Does that mean I don't have to bring food and build storage sheds anymore. I'll buy you an alarm clock. Its the only way I can wake up 2 hours earlier than normal so I can get out there by 8:30am.
I think there was a bunch of us building storage sheds, doing Target Maintenance, etc.
November 22 2009, 12:05 PM
but it really makes sense that those that Actual Opine that there is an issue with target function to check the targets before the match AND to Step Up to the Mic and Opine at the Shooters Meeting after the match has ended.
Some of us have I Phones, Blackberry's and other phones that have scheduling and alarm functions...the applications are there if one chooses to use them...
I don't post much but having shot many IHMSA competitions back in the day
November 21 2009, 2:00 PM
I have seen many shooters complain about targets not falling when hit. The targets could indeed be 'set' too hard for one reason or another or the load used was simply not good enough to generate the energy needed to tip it over. I have even seen the wind play a factor where it was strong enough to keep the target standing when hit with a heavy load. Some complainers were of the type you describe (look like they can lose control at any minute). It does indeed affect other shooters and colors the complainer in a very negative light but they often don't see themselves as a problem. That said, they could have a valid complaint since issues can arise.
You may consider a formal 'Protest Policy' where the protester posts a small fee and the target is investigated at the end of that relay. It wouldn't take long and the other shooters would all be looking to see the result (peer pressure). As suggested in an earlier post -- a cheap 1377 pumper could be used to generate a known minimum amount of energy that would tip the target at point blank range -- if the targets falls the fee goes to the club and the miss stands but if the target doesn't fall then the protester gets his fee back, the shot is counted as a hit, and the target gets addressed to correct the problem.
Just my humble suggestion but I wish you good luck with the issue.
I worked for a company that built the falling targets for the Army. Final inspection required a weight on a string to be released from a certin height and not trip the target. Another heavier weight was dropped from the same height did activate the target. It would seem that one of you engineers could spec out a test fixture that could be used by everyone. That would eliminate the subjectiveness of the pumper for challenges.
Tell the guy that you (as a club) can
no longer tolerate his behavior.
And that if he cannot join in the
competition, and enjoy himself,
he should seek other forms of
shooting somewhere else.
If it occurs on that much of
a regular basis.
It is the best thing to do.
For the growth of your organization,
and the sport.
No one wants to discourage anyone
from pursuing the shooting sports.
But you have to ask yourselves,
as a "club" will we miss him if
he is gone?
Will getting rid of one guy
make it more enjoyable
for the majority of your shooters?
Will it give a new shooter
a more pleasant experience?
If you have regular meetings
as a club. Bring up the matter,
whether he is present or not.
Ask them as a group, what they want to
do. Keep him, or tell him he is not
welcome.
The next time he shows up,
get together with him as a group
and simply voice your opinions.
Tell him he is welcome to stay and
shoot, but if he cannot accept
the Match Directors rulings.
Then it would be best that he
leave immediately.
Everybody has bad days, I have had
days where I didn't shoot well,
but it was still a good day.
Because I was out shooting with
people that were fun to be with.
And I was out shooting.
You have to do what is best for
the group. Period.
Being very mindfull of your current surroundings and Especially "WITNESSES" you may attempt to execute the 1st. Rule Of T.V. Repair. (A Very Quick and Open Handed thump to the upper right hand corner of the offending Unit)!!! This may require repeated applications, and if it doesn't work, at the very least the speech patterns may become slower, and it may very well distract them from their present B!#ch !!! ;^D
2)if so, take a rested shot with the MD present. See if it falls.In all fairness quite often it happens when shooting low power.
3)If this sport becomes an obsession and your only in it to win at all costs take up a different sport. This is a gentlemens sport with a bunch of great people.
True Carl, let's say our resident springer fan drops the same targets with an R7
November 21 2009, 9:46 PM
and never complains that a target is faulty at our home course...and that the match director/range officers have gone over the split pellet issue multiple times, with one of those officials shooting a 10fpe springer and practically clearing the course with no faulty target protests...
Let's say "the guy" travels to a State Match and is literally wearing a new trail in the course from walking his path up and down to complain about how he "saw that paddle move" and the target isn't functioning properly...
Could be, he's known to curl up giggling all by himself at times
November 22 2009, 12:57 AM
which makes people wonder if he's on something or is supposed to on something...Hee Hee, I'm sure he might complain there too, bad paper that doesn't cut clean enough, making his groups measure too big!!!
I think you should ask the guy to show up with a full powered gun
November 22 2009, 12:39 AM
And see if his complaining ceases. IF it does, you learn two things:
1. Maybe there is at least a little truth in his whining
2. Since the problem is solved, and everyone is happier ... INCLUDING him, since the no longer has the "problem", he should keep using the regular gun, and sell the wimp gun.
I'm pretty sue I know the guy you are speaking of, having observed him last week. He DID seem to complain about at least one target on nearly every lane, including the first one he shot at when the match began. But the truth is, it DID seem like one or two targets WERE a little sticky.
don't think anybody will be offering their guns to him either...
BTW, yeah, that's him...funny thing is that at our local matches, Eric aka OldShooter drops the targets fine with his R7 and Kevin Yee takes the targets out at will with his 10fpe TX200...
So a 12fpe gun should drop the targets just fine if the shooter does his part, right?
Yeah, a couple sticky targets, Lane 7, first target iirc...something about the cable iirc is what people told me...still dropped fine for me 3 outta 4 times...
Fact is he complains on local course frequently and obviously A LOT at State...
As you know, last weekend at the Ca. State match, I used an 18fpe gun, and only dropped one shot the first day ... it wasnt one of the "problematic" targets ... I just got caught out by a wind shift ... my fault, really.
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