I noticed looking through the Chairgun pellet data base that .177 JSB heavies have a 0.031 BC. For a .177, that's high...real high. In fact it's higher than most .22 and .25 pellets. Now, that got me thinking, most PCP's should be able to easily shoot them in the upper 900's, and with that small a projectile I should be able to get lots of very consistent shots.
I'm thinking that a .177 Marauder sounds like just the ticket for some serious long range precision plinking, (out to 100+ yards). I'm thinking I might run it off a pony bottle for extra convenience and consistency. I might regulate it too, but I already have the pony bottle, so that's an easy option. The affordability of the pellets and the mags makes this look very attractive.
not too many signing up for this what with the popularity of the .22. this thing would be an inexpensive, fun quest for you. something like the .177 marauder is the ...basic... ...gun... and i'm kind of surprised that the .177 PCP doesn't get more traction. i only have the marauder in .177 but those with both calibers find the .177 gives more shots.
everyone relates to guns and ammo in their own way and that's the way it should be. i can't exactly verbalize the feeling i get, but best as i can, the confluence of extreme accuracy, minute groups, and minute ammo are the most fun that can be had. i can easily see how someone else can find the scenario undernourished and dinky.
with the .177 heavy pellets,the Crosman ultra mag or heavy Premier would also be excellent at long range energy retention.You will find that these pellets are superb penetrators as well and lend themselves to hunting applications that many feel only larger calibers should be assigned to.I cannot comment on their resistance to crosswind influence,but you are certainly on the right track.
I have noticed a severe tendency to shift in the crosswinds. I was shooting 10.5gn CPH's .177 (~ same BC as JSB) @ 910 fps and my dad was shooting 14.3 CP's .22 @ 775 fps and we shot 30 shots each at 50 yds.
They were at the same time (we were both on a bench)with light winds (3mph?.) My shots shifted an a average of .5-.75" and his were an average of .25 -.375".
I'm convinced the .22 call pellets are better for long distance shooting. That's what most the varmint hunters use as well.
Technically, the BC combined with velocity should determine the wind drift,
March 16 2010, 8:44 AM
but we all know that theory and reality are often different.
I'm a little skeptical of some of the BC values given in Chairgun, but my understanding is that BC can vary quite a bit from gun to gun and as the velocity changes, so it could be that they're correct at least some of the time.
According to Chairgun, the JSB heavies have a BC of 0.031, while CP heavies are 0.026. By way of comparison, .22 JSB 15.9's also have a BC of 0.031 while .22 Kodiaks are 0.036.
That was what got me thinking seriously about this. I frequently shoot my .22 S410 out to 100 yards and I use 15.9 grain JSB's. At that distance I find that consistency is a major factor and the difference in trajectory from the power curve becomes very apparent. It seems that a .177 should be able to get more consistent shots per charge and should have an easier time pushing the pellets up into the mid 900's. The big question I suppose is whether the theory bears out in practice. If it does, a .177 M-rod shooting JSB heavies in the 950-1000 range should have a ballistic advantage and a wind bucking advantage over a .22 S410 shooting JSB 15.9's at 930 fps.
allows the odd shot to be off. meanwhile you are developing massive game at wind doping. it isn't all negatives. you will learn your gun intimately, grow as a shooter, pay small money, and have an invaluable shooting experience you wouldn't otherwise have had.
I've been thinking for some time of setting up a simulated 1000 yard range that would use an airgun for long range training on a .308.
Basically, I'd map out the trajectory of the pellet, then size my targets to be the same in relation to the mildots on my scope and my trajectory as a .308 rifle would be at distances between 400 and 1000 yards. So while the 1000 yard target might only be out there at 110 yards, I would have to use the same holdover and it would occupy the same number of mildots as the 1000 yard full size target would.
I've thought for some time that it would be nice to be able to practice high power, long range shooting for $0.02 a shot and do it without having to drive out to Timbuktu. I don't like wind drift, but for my purposes more of it might not be a bad thing.
great practice and loads of fun. everybody has different wind conditions. the way you describe your range it may not be much of a factor. to me this is a perfect application for .177. i only wish i had 100 yards to play with.
I've got a .177 Rapid That Dutch and ...nuts, can't remember his name, used to be on this forum all the time shot. One of them nailed a crow with it at over 100 yards before I owned it. That's the one with the DaveG and FX tube.
Theory says BC, not mass determines drift. It doesn't seem right, but that's theory.
One day I will have to compare it to a .22 (yeah, like I have time for that). AFTER the Willys gets done, along with the garage, the........
aquadot was the original owner and figured out that he could fit an fx tube to the bottle connection. Caused other folks to take heed...now theoben has the Rapid E type...
Aquadot is also the guy that thought up the tanks that Airghog sells to this day. He got ahold of the luxfer company and had fittings made up. He is basically the guy that started up airgunners using 4500 psi airtanks. So Joe you do hold alittle history there. I got a rapid stock in left hand that will fit that gun. Don't think it will sell for 1200 again though...hehehehe
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This message has been edited by Dutch.22 on Mar 16, 2010 1:25 PM
and I have used it mostly up until just 9 years ago . Prior to that I only used .177's and they killed just as well as a .22 all those many years , for many people on the same game . Shot placement as you know is most important anywayz , not just FPE or FPS .
Rabbits die at 5 to 7 FPE , Sqirrels at 7 to 9 FPE , dead is dead , nuff said .
For flat shooting , the .177 is hard to beat . Try some RWS Super Magnum Diabolos some time . If you think Meaisterkuglens shoot good adn your gun likesa littel ehavier pellet, they are hard to beat for an accurate Diabolo .
once you live in a permanent windy environment you see some of its short comings , having a heavy 0177 (11grain or so) going at 900+ is great . I am certainly no expert but it seems that you need 20 grains or more at velocities of above 850 to really reach out when wind is present.I am still a huge fan of the 177 , always have been . One of my preferred solutions for pest control out to 40 yards or so is the HN wadcutters at 8-900 pfs.
I have done tons of shooting out back here while working on guns, and my back stop is a measured 75 yards out. The .177 will do just fine at that distance, and beyond, provided the shooter does his part. One drweaback... It's harder to actually see where you are hitting at that distance with a little itty bitty pellet! hehehehe
I own a gun I can use several barrels easily in an afternoon. I have three barrels I sometimes use for benchrest matches, one in each caliber. We fire at (only) fifty yards. With each caliber firing decently flat shooting pellets at 900fps, the trend for SURE is the larger and heavier the pellet, the less it blows around in the wind.
On a really mild day, ANY of the barrels will easily shoot 1 moa, but when the breeze picks up, the .22 cal 18.1gr JSB at even only 850fps will drift less than a .177 Premier 10.5 even at 950fps.
I have compared my .177 to the 5mm and .22 at 100yds. With REALLY calm condition, my .177 is slightly better, giving well under an inch, and the .22 and 5mm giving jUSt under an inch. But with typical breeze, the .22 stretches out to 1.5" and the .177 and 5mm to 2" and the .177 to 3.5"
..not caliber. If two pellets have the exact same BC and start at the same muzzle velocity (and neither of them has a stability issue), won't be any difference in wind drift. A 10gr. .177 with a BC of .022 would drift the same as a 20gr. .22 with a BC of .022 (as well as have the same drop).
Yes, but I've found that listed BC's often don't match up.
March 16 2010, 10:48 PM
I don't know whether it's the gun in question or the velocity, but I find that about 1/2 the time my BC/velocity based charts don't play out in reality. When in doubt I think that bigger, heavier and more streamlined pellets tend to win out.
No way they really can as the BC of a pellet really has two main values. There is a theoretical BC based on shape and math.formula (or wind tunnel tests of nearly perfect models) and there is the real world BC from imperfect pellets.
Besides the odd motions some pellets make as they exit some barrels (make that "most"). Different BC's when traveling at different speeds, which not only means the BC of pellet "X" fired from a 600fps airgun won't be the same as when fired from a 900fps airgun AND that as the pellet travels and slows, the BC also changes with that change in speed.
Idea is that the listed BC's are a kind of best case, and have found that most of the charts are a bit generous.
Interesting to look at the Straight Shooter's test data.. will have test firings from many different guns, and as you go though the results, will find identical pellets have widly different BC's from different guns.
I guessing we probably see pretty much eye to eye on this.
March 16 2010, 11:20 PM
On paper, I see no reason why .177 can't be an excellent long range caliber, (perhaps one of the best given the number of high velocity per charge). It's usually much easier to find out what others first hand experiences are, and considering the number of super accurate .177 FT guns out there, I'm sure there are plenty of serious airgunners who have done this.
At issue as well, and something no charts or programs deal with
March 17 2010, 1:45 AM
Is the affect of the rifling and distortion as a result of firing that occurs from most airguns.
something I notice is, as a percentage, the distortion on .22 pellets due to firing and rifling engraving is less than on similarly shaped .177's.
I have observed consistent differences in wind drift between two different barrels of the same caliber, using the same pellet batch and same velocity, fired from the same gun. Yes, one BARREL gives less drift than another with all other conditions maintained!
Many of us have observed something similar, but havent discussed it in this same way ... if others have swapped out innacurate barrels, think back .....
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