Benjamin RogueMay 28 2012 at 7:54 PM
|Hans Stedman (Login BeefyBoy50)|
Hi, I'm kind of new here on the forum.
I have been reading all of your comments about the new Evanix Max and I have seen some comments saying things like "hopefully this gun doesn't turn out like the Rogue." What happened with the Rogue?
when it was first release, it had a lot of issues
|May 28 2012, 8:11 PM |
Here are some of the issues I remember. I'm sure I left out a few.
-mag issues, too much space in pellet cavity causing bad accuracy and jamming
-very little power difference on the power settings
-it was dumping air and some weren't holding air
-bad accuracy with the few available pellet selection, even when loaded by hand and not with the mag
The design of the gun wasn't the best either. It was really long at 48" and had a relatively small
cylinder for the power (only 330 cc). Meanwhile, bottle guns have 400, 500cc and guns like the
Evanix Monster has 800 cc in a 40" rifle.
Some guys don't buy Crosman's claim that the Rogue is marketed to the powder burner crowd. The
Rogue is joked about here on the forum as a gun that didn't live up to the hype.
It's used in expressions like going "Rogue" or "going the way of the Rogue".
Very little and some of it bad.
|May 28 2012, 8:19 PM |
The Rogue was introduced with much fanfare and much debate about electronics in guns. There were great claims made about performance and the gun being a "game changer."
Since actually being available to the public, a few close range hog kills, a nice coyote kill and some nice reviews from professional writers/shooters have been posted. There have also been a couple posts/reviews from customers that were not so happy with power, accuracy, consistency or the magazine. There have been no reviews that showed performance not easily obtained with other guns and other reviews showed even repaired guns were not so great.
It's been a big dissappointment for those of us who were rooting for an over the top performance. Not only did it not materialize but the general silence on the net indicates that nothing is getting better.
Crosman has said (through proxies and spokesmen) that the Rogue was not for airgunners but for PB shooters. Sadly, only a couple of posts or references from the PB world indicate any kind of positive finding and those posts/references (like the "professional" reviews) contain no objective data such as velocity curves or repeatable accuracy demonstrated via any credible means.
Tons of hype but little to see a year or so later...
Crosman Inflated claims was the main Problem
|May 28 2012, 8:59 PM |
250 FPE at full power for 4 shots and basically no fps difference between shots
But it turned out to be 190 FPE ( and that is with the 175gr bullet in the upper 600s fps, not very good for long range predator hunting) for 3 shots and significant fps variation.
Basically an underpowered Big Bore, very Heavy and Long
When a repeter/shrouded .357 was announced I was very exited, they cooled me down pretty quickly
Dragon Claw .50 "Tuned"
DAQ Outlaw .452
Career 707 Ultra "Black Mamba" .357 "Tuned"
Career 707 Ultra .357
Career 707 III Carbine .25
Sumatra Carbine .25
Sumatra Carbine .22
AR6 Pistol .22
Walther Talon NP .25
Hatsan Torpedo 100 x .22 "Tuned"
Trail NP XL .22 "Tuned"
RWS 34 .22
Nitro Venom .22
Hunter Sport .177 "Tuned"
Hunter 220 .177
the rogue era was breifly fun..manny willbsay the same..then it got released
|May 28 2012, 9:07 PM |
And the fun discussions ended
"i never was much for book learnin"
Well.........CROSMAN claims the Rogue is doing well
|May 28 2012, 10:09 PM |
and pretty much has since the beginning. Except for a few issues which Crosman quickly sorted out and fixed.
The gun was marketed toward Power Burner guys and is doing VERY WELL in that community......ACCORDING to CROSMAN! So most of the guys that own the ROGUE (which is doing well by the way), DO NOT PARTICIPATE of bb gun forums! They simply KILL stuff and shoot tight groups and report NONE of it to any forum/
So, the Rogue is ALIVE AND WELL according to Crosman/Benjamin! So there U go!
I like mine....just sayin.....
|May 28 2012, 10:33 PM |
I haven't had much of a chance to work with the Rogue much lately but will have time in the near future. My first impressions were that it had a certain cool factor all of its own. I've ordered some heavy weight bullets for it to do some target work before I start casting my own bullets. I did run a couple of boxes of the 127 grain Benjamin bullets through it and was getting the impression that it would work better with bullet weights that closely approximate the programmed settings. With that in mind I ordered up everything from 75 grain wad cutters to some 170 grain round nose and I've been eyeing some 195 grain Elmer Keith rounds just to play with. I did send it back to Crosman for a software update and was very impressed with their service and the turnaround time.
refreshing to hear..can u make a full review when u have time ..i love the gun
|May 28 2012, 11:28 PM |
Just waiting for price to come down to risk it.
"i never was much for book learnin"
And there you have it...
|May 28 2012, 11:35 PM |
That's about the best the reviews of the Rogue get. "It seems to have potential and I like the service I got after I had to send it back." (A paraphrase of several posts) "I'll post results later." (A paraphrase of too many posts.)
The gun has gone back for bad magazines, bad sensing/computing and terrible accuracy. The company seems to have dealt with customers fairly but silly things have been reported, like, "it's supposed to lose 100-200psi a day."
The only comprehensive posts from users willing to put up targets and numbers and take the heat for any mistakes they might have made show the gun to be disappointing. The un-posted findings from the folks that dare to communicate with me indicate many more first hand experiences of dissappointment than delight.
I don't know why but Crosman's rep online has told ud the gun is for PB hunters not airgunners and was meant to bring airguns into the hunting realm. Yeah, an airgun that airgunners don't care for will take over the PB world for urban hunting and prarie dog elimination!
I understand hype. The rule is, convince the world that 80% of your results are awesome and then reveal 95% and let the customer show the extra 5%. Crosman promised 150% of what the gun delivered and then had reliability, accuracy and performance failures. Bad show.
Didn't Rogue 2.0 get announced on Facebook a month ago?
If Ruger made "starter" pistols ... the kind used at track and field events...
|May 29 2012, 12:09 AM |
Do you honestly think any feedback given by the ordinary handgun enthusiasts would be positive or helpful? Come on now. Similarly, if Crosman wanted to attract powder burners to the airgun realm, our advice would be about as helpful. They'd end up producing a .20 cal 25 fpe squirrel thumper that would hardly do the trick. Besides there are plenty of those already that can outdo the best Crosman is willing to put out. The PB crowd already rejects those as "toys" and they pull out the ole HMR .17 to prove it with a 250 yd head shot on ground squirrel. So if Crosman wanted to impress these fellas ... please tell me what you'd recommend?
|This message has been edited by VPilot on May 29, 2012 12:14 AM|
|May 29 2012, 1:25 AM |
The opinions of handgun experts concerning a noise maker would be just as valid as airgun hunters opinions regarding an air rifle made for hunting. Good point.
Do you believe that airgun shooters are limited to .20 caliber in experience? Dude! I've got 2 .62 caliber airguns, a couple of .32s and several smaller calibers. I took a groundhog at 200 yards with a .32 gun and yes, that would impress a pb shooter given that he understands the power limits that shot was taken with.
It wasn't that long ago that I arrived at the farm range to find some fellows already set up with their bench and 6mm target gun. They had not seen a GH all day so they were not at all upset by us showing up and setting out targets. We never saw a GH that day but those PB shooters came over and shot my .32 and had nothing but superlatives to say about it. They had no illusions about range but were impressed by the accuracy at 50-100 yards. There was a stiff wind blowing and when one of the PB shooters (he competes in matches) nailed the bull on our target on his first shot, he was about as happy as if he'd won a match! I was taking some credit for calling the wind...
We put away the match 6mm pretty quick and enjoyed the big bore airguns.
Really, do you think an inconsistant .357 airgun will impress PB shooters who already know of consistent .45 and higher airguns?
As you mentioned...
|May 29 2012, 1:53 AM |
You have a big bore. Big bore airguns have been around for quite a while - and much better ones than the Rogue. And we have airguns capable of hitting groundhogs at 200 yds. So where are all the PB crowd? Why haven't they already flocked in droves to this sport? What would it take?
I don't know.
|May 29 2012, 12:26 PM |
I'm not really sure anyone needs to recruit PB shooters to join our hobby/sport. For a company with a product to sell, a bigger base of potential customers is always a good thing. But if we as a group decided it would be good to recruit PB shooters to join us we would not have selected Crosman or the Rogue as our flagship for hunting guns.
Actually, we might have selected Crosman to be one of the representatives to highlight the capabilities of guns like the Marauder and lighter guns. But, we would never have decided that a company with no experience with big bore hunting guns roll out a new gun complete with new technology and become the face of airgun hunting. Not only would we have recognized that an electronic gun was polarizing to start with but a company with established hunting guns might make a better representative and know the target demographic better.
Of course, Crosman didn't ask us, they decided that they needed to market to PB shooters and pretty much blew off their established customer base. Not a bright move because they blew off all the knowledge and experience that base has.
Instead of representing us with a reliable, accurate and trouble free gun, Crosman rolled out a gun that had multiple issues and didn't live up to any of the ridiculous hype they disseminated. On top of convincing the PB crowd that air tanks and hoses and fill stations are all worth it to enjoy shooting when circumstances favor an airgun, we now have to overcome the Rogue history. It's bad enough that Gamo advertises their crap as hog killers in NRA magazines but now we have an actual big bore failure out there too.
The whole Rogue story is a mess. I applaud Crosman for having ambition and being willing to try new technology. Unfortunately, in the case of the Rogue, they mixed in some arrogance and hubris and payed the price.
Yea, but those arnet off the shelf guns Jerry
|May 30 2012, 11:10 AM |
and very few PB guys are going drop what you did, or wait the length of time you did to get those
A Barnes .62 is not the same as an off the shelf Crosman
Your point thoug, is very valid that there are
off the shelf guns capable of decent hunting performance
dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab
the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
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|May 30 2012, 5:43 PM |
Most of my big bores are very special custom guns that perform extremely well. However, the DS .50 I failed to mention has a lower power, closer range niche and the .308 Condor conversion does too. I just don't shoot those anymore as I have limited time to shoot and prefer to take out the best stuff I have available.
That said, there are commercial choices out there that perform pretty darn good off the shelf and are a better choice for hogs or yotes than the Rogue. I think we all agree that there are choices available!
I think it was pretty arrogant of Crosman to go out and represent us to PB hunters with zero experience in big bores and using an unproven gun.
Typical response....:"post more later". Jerry, i thought most
|May 29 2012, 1:40 PM |
of us were already PB shooters. I know i am an have been since the day i could fully hold a Marlin model 60. I shoot my PB every time I take out my airguns. Rifles and pistols. EVERYTIME! And i have as many PB's as i do airguns if not more actually. So when Crosman talks about PB shooters being converted (to airguns), i find it hard to believe when the Rogue is unreliable, inconsistent from OWNER to OWNER and HELLA EXPENSIVE and heavy. So have SOME PB shooters bought a Rogue? Sure they have. I believe that. But i don't believe that soooooooooooooo many have been converted. As a matter of fact, a PB shooter buying a airgun is nothing new. We've been buying them forever.
I also KNOW FOR A FACT that airguns are MORE unreliable than a PB. Just read prior post here. I can't name ONE SINGLE TIME any of my PB's leaked, or broke, or had a mag jam, or had multiple ORINGS blow out once i got into the field, or had muzzle crown issues (new gun), or wouldn't cock for some ungodly reason. I've never had those issues with my PB's. And that's what PB owners have come to expect, a gun that shoots every time they squeeze the trigger. Expensive, problematic and untested (true long term testing at the factory before releasing to the public) new guns (evanix and rogue to name just a couple) in my mind hurts our sport and to me gives the impression that these things are just toys. IMO
Again, never had my Tikka, Glock, Ruger or CZ break or leak and they make upwards of 50,000+ psi....lol
|May 29 2012, 3:35 PM |
Airguns are not a mystery to a lot of guys that already shoot both. Some PB shooters have never heard of big bore airguns but since most states still have restrictions on airgun hunting, maybe working with regulators is a better use of time than convincing a PB shooter to buy a weird gun he can't use is...
Everybody wanted .20 caliber from Crosman, they ignored us.
|May 28 2012, 11:09 PM |
And dreamed the world had suddenly become overrun with wild hogs, so they decided that we all needed (and wanted) .357 caliber. So today, Crosman is crying all the way to the poorhouse.
Don't get me wrong, I really want Crosman to have the best of success, but instead of doing the obvious and knocking off the edgun, or coming out with semi/full auto PCPs, they had a colossal redneck moment and came out throwing haymakers with an overgrown monstrosity that made no sense, a la the H1 Hummer.
I have to disagree there.
|May 28 2012, 11:24 PM |
I'm not a big fan of the Rogue at the price it came out at. However I think it is clear that WE were not the target market for this gun. This was purpose-built to legitimize air as an alternate power source for traditional powder burning hunters. In that role, it's success can have a huge impact on the industry and our sport. But that's a topic unto itself. Bottom line: We are not the only market that Crosman listens to.
All good points, but...
|May 29 2012, 12:33 AM |
Because it is so easy to own firearms in this country, attempting to cross over to that market with an airgun is a hail Mary pass by any measure...you certainly wouldn't bet a buisness that way.
I'm personally very happy that airguns are considered toys in this country, And they're perceived as a stepping stone that you "outgrow".
|This message has been edited by LexingtonGreg on May 29, 2012 12:43 AM|