<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

A classic experiment showing sudden transfers of air cause cooling - not heating.

November 14 2012 at 12:50 PM

Steve in NC  (Login pneuguy)
GM

Joule expansion

[linked image]

The Joule expansion is an irreversible process in thermodynamics in which a volume of gas is kept in one side of a thermally isolated container (via a small partition), with the other side of the container being evacuated. The partition between the two parts of the container is then opened, and the gas fills the whole container.

Joule performed his experiment with air at room temperature which was expanded from a pressure of about 22 bar [319psi - expanding to 160psi]. ... With our present knowledge of the thermodynamic properties of air [6] we can calculate that the temperature of the air should drop by about 3 degrees Celsius...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_expansion

Note that temperature drop applies to all the air in both sides of the container, in the right side as well as left, even though the pressure on the right side increases by 11bar.

They knew centuries ago that the sudden movements of air driven by pressure changes always produces net cooling - not heating - and our PCPs confirm that result with every shot.

Steve


    
This message has been edited by pneuguy on Nov 14, 2012 1:01 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply
Cal
(Login CalG)
YF

Ahh...

November 14 2012, 1:14 PM 

And that, gentle reader, irreversibly explains why we must be so careful not to overheat our reservoirs, cylinders and tanks while filling.

Though there may be other factors and phenomenon at play also.....

 
 Respond to this message   

Steve in NC
(Login pneuguy)
GM

Please note the keyword: Sudden. That means too quickly for...

November 14 2012, 1:49 PM 

...the air in transit from source to destination to absorb heat from its surroundings.

If you'll recall, we discussed the time factor (i.e., Step #2) at some (!!) length in an earlier thread. Was that effort all for naught?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1352764984/That%27s+a+very+good+question%2C+because+if+air+were+an+ideal+gas%2C+it+wouldn%27t+happen.

Steve

 
 Respond to this message   
Mike in Maryville
(Login shooter58)
YC

Ever heard of a vortex cooler ?

November 14 2012, 2:52 PM 

We used them in industrial settings to cool remotely located equipment cabinets. No moving parts, just apply pressurized air and voila ! out one port comes hot air (burn you hot) and out the other port comes cold (really cold) air. Pipe the cold air into the cabinet, done.

 
 Respond to this message   

CO222
(Login CO222)
YF

I know of vortex tubes

November 14 2012, 4:24 PM 

so there's a real world example of expanding air reaching higher than initial temperature in one part and lower in another.




 
 Respond to this message   

Steve in NC
(Login pneuguy)
GM

Actually, I have, but haven't a clue how they work. A few things...

November 14 2012, 5:02 PM 

...about them seem obvious, however.

1. Something about the sonic-speed spinning of the vortex is essential to separating the inner and outer longitudinal flows into different temperatures.

2. It takes a significant amount of time for the heat exchange to occur, as reflected in the minimum length the coolers have to have.

3. Whatever the details of the process that makes them work may be, it doesn't seem likely to occur in any normal airgun firing cycle.

Steve


    
This message has been edited by pneuguy on Nov 14, 2012 5:03 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
Cal
(Login CalG)
YF

Fertile Ground for the future!

November 14 2012, 10:42 PM 

I can see the name in lights!

Vortec powered!


Oh,


that name is taken......

 
 Respond to this message   

Ken H.
(Login tommyatkins)
YF

That's the cooling system used by miners to keep cool...

November 14 2012, 7:42 PM 

The air is compressed thereby increasing the sensible heat, which is cooled down by a heat exchanger. Then the high pressure air is delivered to the miner's suit where it is metered thtough an oriface to low pressure. The resultant pressure drop causes a drop in temperature,thus cooling the miner. Very clever these bald apes.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ron
(Login oo7fuzz)
YF

Your link explains that the experiment "was not adiabatic"

November 14 2012, 10:54 PM 

In practice so the tanks were thermally isolated to preserve heat in the system. Evidently heat could be exchanged between the copper and the air durring the process. And did.

PS Or was the tank so insulated/isolated as to create the principals of a calorimeter only? I'm Confused.


    
This message has been edited by oo7fuzz on Nov 14, 2012 11:41 PM


 
 Respond to this message   

Steve in NC
(Login pneuguy)
GM

No. The article explains that Joule's 19th century calorimetry...

November 14 2012, 11:52 PM 

...instrumentation was insufficiently sensitive and/or fast enough to detect the temperature change produced after the process of expansion was complete. They didn't have very good thermistors back then, ya' know?

But probably a contributing factor to Joule not detecting the temperature jump was that he wasn't expecting to see one in the first place. The only reason it happens at all is because air isn't (quite) an ideal gas.

Steve

 
 Respond to this message   
Boris
(Login Boris_LA)
YF

Re: Ahh...

November 14 2012, 2:04 PM 

Very sarcastic, but wrongly applied to the different process.
Steve's explanation related to the shooting part, where sudden valve opening let some air expansion to the transfer port and the breach area behind the pellet. In this process, no heat generated and very small temperature drop absorbed by surrounding metal parts. It has much more pronounced effect with CO2 in the semi-auto guns. You see chilling effect of the same nature and actually can freeze the valve and surrounds to very noticeable level while shooting quickly.

Overheating pressure reservoir while filling described by the different process of compressing gas.


    
This message has been edited by Boris_LA on Nov 14, 2012 2:06 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
Cal
(Login CalG)
YF

Yes cynical , My apologies to the form.

November 14 2012, 2:52 PM 

'just a bit miffed at the expressions directed my way in an earlier thread associated with the term reversibility.

So yes, I read the words and applied the response to my meaning.

Certainly we do not expect the Joule-Thompson effect to work by some other mechanism than Joule expansion. Both stipulate conditions of environmental isolation. The J-T effect is the application of Joule expansion. Time has no bearing, as the cited Wiki reference elucidates.

Technically, I'm just trying to say, that movement of a real gas from one real volume to another, under real conditions involves additional considerations associated with turbulence, viscosity,friction,and segregation, both spatial and temporal.

Equilibrium is only satisfied "in theory". There is a good joke about "close enough for all practical purposes", but let me not digress wink.gif

The example of the CO2 guns is also associated with the heats of transformation, so an amplified case.. And into a constant pressure as opposed to an increasing pressure. Those aspects are not important here, even if very interesting.

 
 Respond to this message   
DaveG
(Login DaveG)
YF

you really need to spend more time just shooting....

November 14 2012, 5:31 PM 

go out, shoot some pellets, and have fun...

Regards,
DaveG
See more picts @http://davegcustomstocks.com

 
 Respond to this message   

Steve in NC
(Login pneuguy)
GM

Awwwww - why don't you go and...

November 14 2012, 8:00 PM 

...anodize something? wink.gif

J/K, of course. Good suggestion re: shooting, though. I fit in a few minutes today with the li'l VIP Izzy. Not enough, but something.

Steve


    
This message has been edited by pneuguy on Nov 14, 2012 8:04 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
Cal
(Login CalG)
YF

And I taking the advice before even hearing it

November 14 2012, 10:39 PM 

Pumped up and shot down an AR6 in both .17 and .22 along with a bunch of shots at a blistering 495 fps from the "multi shot" 392.

So IT works, this air gun stuff is more than fun, It's self induce hypnosia!

My appreciation, all!

 
 Respond to this message   
jerry
(Login dollarhunt)
YC

Re: you really need to spend more time just shooting....

November 14 2012, 9:39 PM 

AMEN TO THAT....

 
 Respond to this message   
Ron
(Login oo7fuzz)
YF

Cal, these systems you propose need....

November 14 2012, 8:29 PM 

..to be exorcised. Hey, even the great ones, upon whose shoulders we stand, liked to kid around.
http://www.auburn.edu/~smith01/notes/maxdem.htm

 
 Respond to this message   
Cal
(Login CalG)
YF

Ron, It so happens that the words "Maxwell's Demon" are written

November 14 2012, 10:47 PM 

On the top page of my current note pad here on my desk!

Just over the sketch of rise and run consideration for the little car park roof I have started to build out front (before winter hits!)

" Great minds...." awe forget it..... ;-]

 
 Respond to this message   
Jerry
(Login JBoyenga)
YF

Yup...but

November 14 2012, 6:04 PM 

I've cooled more than enough barrels to the point of condensation forming (even on temperate/cool days) to have seen the proof of net cooling.

The "but" pertains to having induced detonation in the "firing chamber" of a PCP. The cooling is net "but" localized heating can and does occur.

I really wish I'd taken video of the event as I was videoing many of the shots that day "but" I didn't realize it was such a big deal back then.

Having shot enough rounds to get the shrouded barrel completly fogged with condensation, I cleaned the barrel by swabbing it with a 3 in 1 oil soked patch. The next couple shots produced curls of smoke from the breech when reloading. And yes, I can tell smoke from water vapor!


 
 Respond to this message   

Steve in NC
(Login pneuguy)
GM

PCP + 3-in-1 oil = detonation? Sounds like an easy enough experiment...

November 14 2012, 6:35 PM 

...to replicate, although I'm prettysure what the outcome will be. wink.gif

Steve

 
 Respond to this message   
 
< Previous Page 1 2 Next >
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Traj Plot by RC    Airgun Calculators    number of fills Calc    cc gun volumes    Add your Pic






D I S C L A I M E R
JK's Airgun Forums, moderators, and administrators are not responsible for any problems that may occur from reading or using content posted on this forum, as they are the exclusive responsibility of two parties: the person who posted it and the person who acted on said posted information.Use of our forums by people under 18 years old is allowed only with legal guardian(s) present.