I am curious on your thoughts of the new .30 cals vs a high power .25 cal. I am speaking about the new 30 Cal fx boss and the 303 Daystate. My question is with regards to opening up to hunting larger game vs a super High powered .25 cal Air Force condor or Evanix Ar 6. Now the condor shoots about 60 FPE and some other upgraded .25 cals are approaching 60 to 100 FPE. They indicated that the 30 cal FX boss is 78FPE and the Daystate is around 120FPE.
the question comes down to is the FX boss or Daystate worth the extra cash ? The .30 Cals seem very pricey right now.
Does the .30 cal offer any advantage on game ? Coyotes, foxes, coon ?
I do know that the 30's buck the wind better than a .25
The 30 Leaves a bigger hole in game animals than a .25
I am sure just Like all the modded 25's out there the 30's can also be modded for more power
I had a 65 FPE Condor in .22 befor
Now I have a 50+ FPE Bam 51 in .25 The 25 hits alot harder than the condor did
I can hear the thwack on crows much more pronounced with the 25 at less FPE
Plus I do notice that the 25 drops the crows faster than the 22 did
Personally if I had the coin I would go for the Boss
The wolverine is making more power but it is lacking in shot count and is LOUD
if you could make i back yard friendly I would opt for the Wolverine
The only reason I use air guns is because they are quieter to shoot I dont need ear protection with them and alot of places have opened up to hunting to me due to the low noise of the air guns where I other wise couldnt hunt with a powder burner.
Therefore, you might want to wait so you don't have to pay the "early adopter premium". I'm sure the Koreans are gonna come out with something sooner rather than later in the .30 caliber category...they're notoriously power hungry.
I'd go for .30 caliber. There is a saying that goes "if you jump, you'd best jump far". 30 caliber has ~44% greater frontal area compared to .25, so it should deliver much more energy up front. Sure, you can overdrive a heavy Korean .25 caliber slug, and the math will tell you they carry the same energy, but the way they deliver it will be quite different. Also, .25 caliber has always seemed notoriously finicky to me.
There's always gonna be detractors who will need to assert absurdities like ".30 caliber isn't really big bore" because they have to feel reassured in all the money they tied up in their low production 1 or 2 shot large caliber guns, and hand cast slugs. But a .30 caliber that can deliver 10-40 shots in the field before refilling just sounds much more inline with what airgunning is, and just more fun all around. If you want to hunt big game, you probably need to stick with a firearm.
Just use a firearm for big game? Why? The game taking power of big bore airguns has been proven. You don need a custom big bore either. What about guns like the Sam Yang? No, you not going to take 100 yard shots with one. but who cares? I use to hunt with a .45cal flintlock. Kept my shots to 50 yards or less.. killed my first deer with one shot. You can do the same with an airgun. and as for having 10-40 shots, if you need that for big game, get out of the woods! I can't wait for NYS to open deer hunting to airguns! the only powder burner I have left is a .22, and only because i really like it....
Know guns, Know peace, know liberty.
No guns, no peace no liberty.
This message has been edited by POP22 on Dec 5, 2012 8:37 PM
I'd hunt anything with a 30 cal as I would a 177. Now WHERE I'd hunt, and how many shots I might have to pass on due to long range carry of the 30 cal...who's to say. I sure as ^&^%$ wouldn't go hunting nesting barn swallows in my pole barn with a Boss or Wolverine. XS12 is plenty for that.
Only the size of the hole it makes. To me, those guns while
December 4 2012, 4:04 PM
nice arent worth the money. But that's just me.
If you want a big bore and you want power, you can buy a true 308 from makers right here in the states and they cost less.
But 25 vs 303/308 with both shooting pellets at 70-100 FPE, the only difference is the size of the entrance and exit hole it makes.
But for me to be fair, Daystate and FX never claimed their guns would be power kings. Its simply something DIFFERENT and probably more refined than the Airforce guns. And refinement in the airgun world comes with a higher price tag.
At that level, its all about bores that shoot bullets. Like my TD257 at 135 FPE!
Re: .25 cal vs .30 cal advantages ? worth the money ?
December 4 2012, 4:11 PM
If your wanting to hunt nothing larger than large hog then I'd say 30 cal is a wast of time. Unless you plan to hunt big game and even then a .45 would be better choice than .30. Plenty of videos on youtube documenting .25 cal effectiveness against medium size game. It's all about shot placement if you unsure of your ability to place the shot right were it needs to be then go with the larger caliber.
Here's one example and this guy isn't even shooting pcp
Hmmmmmmm? "shot placement" becomes less critical with
December 4 2012, 5:14 PM
Larger projectile at the same given FPE/FPS. In hunting when you must take a fairly quick shot, and both have the same accuracy I would go with the .30 cal. Shot Placement becomes highly critical in 177 cal.
I would rather hit the game with one .30 cal and feel more assured if I only get one hit it is with the most affect. On the other hand "Shot Placement is VERY critical in Paper Punching. little un-clear on your comment "waste of time" seems it takes the same time to shoot. Might be a "waste" of money for the extra lead.
This message has been edited by CheckUrSix on Dec 4, 2012 5:17 PM
In the not to distant past, there were plenty of folks right here on this forum debating whether the .25 was a good choice over a high powered .22. People complained about the cost of the .25 pellet in comparison to the scores of good quality .22 pellets available, etc. The debate went on for a LONG time. Do a search on caliber choice, and it may surprise you at how recently the .25 was thought to be a silly caliber. It wasn't until recently (in airgun terms)that the .25 has really caught on. VERY popular caliber right now, and there are more choices in that caliber today than ever.
So, now there are some larger bore choices to make... Crosman popped out the Rogue, and you can dis it all you want, but it is a larger caliber air rifle that is readily available. Daystate brings out the Wolverine, and now FX the Boss. An advantage over a .25? Is a .25 pellet an advantage over a .22? With just the advantage in cross section of the head, I say it is.
I think one thing that is really getting over looked is that with the larger factories now looking at increasing bore diameter, some real life development will now start taking place with these larger bores. OK, so the Wolverine will only do a dozen shots per fill, but the FX will do 35 or better. Name another big bore (larger than .25) that will do that. I sure can't think of one. And, this is just the very beginning.
Ced, I hear ya about your TalonDor... But how many shots that thing get off a full 500cc bottle? 5?, maybe 10? Yes, enough for hunting, I get that. But imagine getting 20 or more at that same power level... or more. The FX putting out 75-78ft/lbs is king in power output + shot count out in the market today. I can't even think of anything that comes close. Couple that with the accuracy potential the gun has shown not only by winning the Extreme Bench Rest shoot in AZ, but also in the very capable hands of Flintsack., and others.
Eating, sleeping, and breathing airguns, I for one am more than excited to have the .30 on the playing feild, and look forward to seeing what the future brings with it. IF I didn't have every nickle I have tied up in trying to do production, you bet your a$$ I'd have a Boss sitting right next to me at this very moment.
Thank you for your input Dave. I like the fact that you cover pretty much all aspect of the .25 VS .30.
I have fund put aside for a new AG. I have a choice between the Boss, Wolverine and the "engineering marvel" Metisse. I do not shoot FT so the Metisse is out the window. I liked everything about the Wolverine except the shoot count and the noise level. With being said, the Boss has 3x shoot count and a little batter in the noise department.
I voted for the Boss and hope to have it by christmas,
Dave, I hear ya, but with a 500 cc tank, i too can dumb down
December 4 2012, 6:58 PM
my power and increase shot count. Same as if the FX BOSS "INCREASED" its power then its shot count would go down. Im making 135 FPE and the FX is 75. I can turn mine down to that and gain a ton of shots.
The FX is no different than my Condor in the fact that they can be adjusted power wise.
But no complaints from me on either gun, i just prefer bullets over pellets and IF i had the spare money, i would buy one. Just in my situation financially, my TALONDOR is supreme. That's all.
IMHO, they are ALL good! The Talandor, the Wolverine, the Boss, heck, even the Daisy red ryder.
There is one thing that I will point out here though, that I do feel is relavent. While I spend my share of time playing with bores to shoot cast bullets, I do so understanding that this type of set up is not the main stream in Airgunning (and probably never will be). More people may join in the fun, but shooting cast bullets at over 100ft/lbs (and up) will always be a very small percentage of the airgunning pass time.
It isn't for everyone... MANY tried and true airgunners still prefer to shoot .177's. Far more than would consider a 135ft/lb blaster.
But... The Boss, I think that baby is gonna carve out a new nitch on it's own. I personally feel like it has just the right blend of power, and usability to become the new ".25" wet dream for main stream airgunners. Not so different from what we call familiar, but different enough to make us want one.
I said it earlier, and I will say it again. It wasn't that long ago where the argument was whether a .25 is a good choice over a tuned .22. Well, it is.
I knew you did...lol! And its all about preference. And yes,
December 4 2012, 8:25 PM
todays airgunners are ALL ABOUT SHOT COUNT AND SILENCE. Such as most on the Yellow were as other forums have people who hunt and who like power and range.
Cast bullets have been around in big bores for many years via DAQ and the Korean guns as well as others. I see them definitely gaining in popularity but i'm a little bit more optimistic about the future of them than you....lol! But the future CANNOT be guessed. Just assumed. So, i at least HOPE bullets gain more popularity. A more efficient projectile is just the next step in evolution of airguns. There are lots of power hungry guys out there who hunt as well as guys who like to paper punch or plink tin cans.
So there is something for all to be had.
For some reason, my "PSYCHIC" side see's you getting a 30 cal ST barrel real soon and putting it in one of your actions.....LOL! Oooops, did i spoil it?! LOL LOL LOL LOL (im in trouble for that i know).
The FX 500 and the new Boss about the same new price...
December 4 2012, 5:08 PM
I would go with the new Boss.... .30 cal seems to be Very very accurate at dist (maybe just the mass?) and .30 even at the @ same FPE with ever larger Dia...would probably exhibit slightly bigger impact because of said dia..
It is a truely a different question entirely if you cast bullets
December 4 2012, 5:17 PM
A cast bullet .257, either a AirForce or a Haley shooting SWC cast bullets will shoot circles around a Boss or a Wolverine in long range energy and accuracy simply because your using a cast SWC projectile with a far superior ballistic coefficient, which translates directly into greater retained energy and accuracy for long range shooting and killing power when hunting larger game.
78 FPE, while sounding powerful, is simply below the starting point of cast bullet 25's.
I have a regulated FX Royale 500 carbine as my only Diablo shooter, it is superbly accurate and handles like a..well a Royale 400 which is always delightful, and I have not shot it in over two months.
When I reach for a air gun it is the Talon SSS shooting 135 FPE or the Haley 257 shooting over 200 FPE and if I really want a power trip I will use a XPAirguns Ranger 45 shooting 415 grains at 600 FPE.
And these three are far more cheaper to purchase and to shoot than either 30 caliber option regardless of shot counts.
However my circumstances are different than most air gunners, I am retired, so projectiles are $1.35 per lb and my time, along with a Shoebox for free air.
However there is another qualifier here and that is where you shoot them. I suspect that "backyard friendly" would have to be in references to 10 acre backyards that all the neighbors shoot in for either 30's or cast bullet air guns, either of these choices require space and a safe backstop.
So what I am saying is if you truely want long range accuracy or power to effectively take down larger animals get a cast bullet air gun or convert a diablo shooter and feed it SWC cast bullets.
Luv Luv Luv, your 500 However one can do the same thing to the New Boss
December 4 2012, 5:30 PM
shorter lighter and now 30 cal. You are correct about your own bullets.. very good, but some do not have the time to mold or like me simply LAZY!!! and wish to buy .30 cal in a can and live with the slight loss of accuracy. Got to appreciate the new accuracy reports on the Boss, repeater and 30+ shots. Talon for me is a one shot wonder (wonder meaning Wonder if I will have the time for the possible follow-up that in some cases i.e wind etc, might be needed.
I would pick a .25 Cal Sumatra shooting cast bullets with a significant Metplat in between 80 and 100 FPE, much more flexible right now in my Opinion, better for headshots on big game and still not too big of a Channel Wound in a small critter.
I like the Boss much more than the Wolverine as an all around gun
"Almost None Knows the Keen sense of Satisfaction Which Comes from Taking Game with their Own Homade Weapons"
Right now my Haley is back at Jack's getting tuned for individual bullet weights, ie 75 90 100 and coresponding springs cut for the different fill levels required to shoot them.
But the short period of time that I did shoot it, and not even getting close to a 4400 PSI fill, the 90 grain bullet still has more power at 600 yards than the Boss does at the muzzle.
And as far as accuraacy Jon Bowman has shown groups at ranges that a Boss owner can only dream of and a Wolverine owner would consider impossible.
Jack is working at getting as close to 1100 FPS he can with 100 grains, a task that may or may not be possible, however, if he does get there or close, with my Leupold/Holland Long Range scope. If I zeroed at 100 yards and shimmed it to be at the bottom of the elevation adjustment at 100 yards, with the 107 MOA of adjustment I have, I can dial it in to hit right on at 550 yards and still have the 24 MOA reticle to work with.
With a 90 yard zero, I will have a arc that is 2 inches high to 90 yards and just using the Hollands 24 MOA reticle I can hold right on out to 250 yards and never touch a turrent.
Even if I did not cast, for that kind of performance I would buy either RJ Porter's or Hunters Supply bullets.
To me the future of long range air gunning is summed up in two words, "cast bullets"
The Haley is a beast with the 36 inch barrel
To me the Dyotat valved Talon SSS set up like this with the dog leg ETac is far handier than my Roylae 500 was before I put it on a diet.
CY6 the problem with the Boss at its current barrel length is it is under powered
December 4 2012, 6:05 PM
for its bore diameter.
Now the best of all worlds for that platform may rest in the hands of Oldgoat. If he can successfully increase the performace of that regulator and graft a 25 caliber barrel and bolt onto his Boss so that it can shoot cast bullets.
Re: CY6 the problem with the Boss at its current barrel length is it is under powered
December 4 2012, 9:12 PM
My Bosss power cant be increased by turning the hammer spring tension in. 870 fps is all it will put out no matter how high the spring tension adjuster is turned in. It doesnt have the 3 position power wheel that some of the other FX guns have.
Around last March or April, FX introduced the Boss at a gun show in Europe. FX said that the Boss would shoot the 46 grain pellets at up to 120 fpe. If that is true, the headroom is there, I just need to find out how to adjust the regulator up.
I got some more info today and it seems that FX offers 3 different weight hammers for the 22 and 25 Elites. I will either buy them or make some. I have to find out about different weigh hammer springs also. I have plenty of time, the Hart .257 barrel wont be here for another 10 weeks.
Last weekend, I didnt take my 25 cal long version Matador along with the Boss when I took the Boss out. I think that the Matador is more accurate at up to at least 125 yards; I have never tried shooting it at ranges longer than that. The Boss might have an edge after that. Once we figured the hold over needed for shooting water bottles at 158 yards, the boss would hit them virtually ever shot. After they were all knocked down, the Boss would easily bit the less than 2.5 inch bottom of them almost every shot also. I do know that it sure puts the smack on the bottles at 158!
The PB guys werent interested in my pellet gun until they saw how it was out shooting them at 158 yards and then they wanted to try it. Once we told the guys where the aim point was, they were hitting the bottles almost every time also. Even 10-12 year old kids were hitting the bottles.
My buddy wanted to try hitting a diamond shaped piece of metal (that I wont describe here any further) at 288 yards. I turned the Hawke scope down to 6 X and Chairgun said to use the bottom of the last mill box right at the edge of reticle. He hit it the first shot and almost every shot after that. Other people tried, (I didnt) and they were hitting it also.
Just before dark, I jumped on a 4 wheeler and went out to look at the target. We were shooting at a 25-30 degree angle to the target and the pellets didnt hurt it in any way but, I could see scuff marks that the pellets made. The probably 20 shot group was around 4 inches vertical and 10 inches horizontal. The horizontal spread was from the variable light breeze that was picking up. Not too bad of a group considering that 4-5 people tried their hand at it.
I wasnt going to take the Boss as I had taken it completely apart and didnt want to put it back together and do the final fitting to the bull pup stock; I am glad I took the time to assemble it. It was fun shooting it and I was surprised at how well it shot at 288 yards.
My LBT bullet moulds should be here this week and I am very anxiously awaiting the Hart .257 barrel!
a 30 cal and don't mind the wait' XP airguns is going to make them for half of
what a wolverine costs with twice the power. If you cast your own bullets
the accuracy will come and you won't be limited to the pellets the wolverine shoots
Just my input.
The boss and Wolverine. I am currently writing a review on the Boss. I have to say its shot count has been a disappointment, but its still over twice that of the .303. The Daystate still out shoots the Boss in my hands, and with one of Neils LDC's its just as quiet. Of course the final verdict will remain to be seen until I get more trigger time with the Boss.
Oh and for the fellow who said theres a power wheel on the Boss, id like to know where he seen that. Mine does not have that feature.
Just bought some lead for $1.60 per lb delivered in fish shaped ingots of all things
December 4 2012, 11:12 PM
I get 93, 75 grain 25 caliber air gun bullets, from a lb of lead. for $3.06 I can cast 150 bullets.
A tin of 30's cost $15.00 and you get 150.
The difference in cost of a Boss compared to a Haley or a hot rod AirForce from Dyotat will pay for your casting gear.
The difference between a Wolverine and a Haley or a hot rod Airforce from Dyotat are mind boggling, actually you could probably buy the Haley and the hot rod Airforce and a furnace and a mold and sizer.
Again that Haley at 600 yards, not running full throttle, will exceed the FPE at the muzzle of the Boss.
My equipment paid for itself thousands of bullets ago with the Ranger 45 and 25 LBT.
RC or anyone else who cares about the cost of lead between casting
December 4 2012, 11:36 PM
and pellets, here is some more info.
.257 cast bullets:
Lead from EBAY = 60.00 for 50 lbs of lead *****NOT PURE LEAD ON EBAY BUT ITS LEAD FOR COMPARISON PURPOSES*******
LYMAN 257 FP bullet = 74 gr each when cast with PURE LEAD. LIGHTER IF YOU USE ALLOY LEAD from ebay
7000 grains per pound (74\7000)= 95 bullets per pound in 257
95 x 50lbs = 4,750 bullets for 60 dollars with FREE shipping
30 cal JSB pellets:
14.99 per 150 on AOA
4750\150 = 31.6 tins of 30 cal pellets to equal 4750 bullets
31.6 x 14.99 = 474.66 dollars to equal the same for cast bullets in quantity
So that's 475.00 NOT INCLUDING SHIPPING for 4750 30 cal PELLETS vs 60.00 bucks for 257 cast bullets
casting equipment including 1 mold is about 140.00 and the mold and pot you dont have to rebuy. You only keep purchasing lead.
AGAIN, THIS IS A "GENERAL/STARTER COST" AS NONE OF IT REALLY INCLUDED SHIPPING EXCEPT THE EBAY LEAD (free mostly). As you can see, both guns are gonna cost but casting like reloading is MUCH CHEAPER EACH AND EVERY TIME AND IT GIVES YOU PRIDE TO KNOW YOU CAST THEM YOURSELF.
And again, i understand NOT EVERYONE is gonna want to cast. I understand that. So this is for basic comparative purposes of general cost of ammo. We could go on for days about what people don't wanna do. Like, some folks don't wanna pay 1500-2500 for a 100 yard airguns. And the list goes on....lol!
Have the rest of us "smallbore" plinkers ship you our expended trapped pellets
December 5 2012, 12:12 AM
Ditch the duct seal and throw your old clothes in a box. Perfect pellet trap and it catches the pellets intact......Easy and convenient.
I had Ben send me a Few pieces of steel panels the same size as a Large flat rate priority mail box and I use those to back the trap for high powered shots. I just used the same size PM box ffor the trap and tape target pages to the front. Has about 3lbs of intact pellets in to date.
If It fits it ships for one low price!.... We could start our own lead recycling program right here on the yellow!
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