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Krytox on pellets or in the bore?

April 16 2017 at 9:57 AM
Quinton Lewis  (Login Domer_Pyle)
YF

Not Krytech. Seems like it would do a good job of keeping cleanings to minimum frequency and effort but it's unaffected by solvents so there would be no turning back if pulled on a patch. Anyone tried it?

 
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Don Armstrong
(Login doninva1)
YF12

Krytox would be VERY expensive for lubing pellet. It is easily

April 16 2017, 8:37 PM 

remove with several cleaners. I use it in spring guns and have used Acetone and even WD-40 to clean part. Never heard it was unaffected by solvents. Have used several variation of Krytox and they were easily cleaned off parts. Some guns love lube and some won't shoot worth a cr@## with lube. Don

 
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David Geesaman
(Login dgeesaman)
YF

Krytox solvents

April 16 2017, 9:40 PM 

I'm told that when lubricating metal parts with Krytox, there's a special solvent wash required to completely clean the metal of petroleum products. Without it, the Krytox never really bonds to the metal.

What does it mean for airgunning? I dunno but Krytox is too rich me to use as a consumable.

 
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Mark
(Login TwiceHorn)
YF12

In addition to being expensive

April 17 2017, 12:06 AM 

It seems like massive overkill. Pellets and barrels don't need much lubrication from a wear standpoint, it's mostly to prevent corrosion and keep the leading and other crud transfer to a minimum and keep what does transfer easily removed. Krtytox sticks to metals, stays there, and has good high load and high temperature characteristics for long term and heavy bearing loads, which is why it is great for springers. Assuming you lube every pellet, the barrel is getting lubed with every shot. To the extent it needs it, the lube is getting replaced with every shot. So, in theory, the cheapest plain ol' lubricating oil will do the job just fine. Heck, lead itself has decent lubricating properties, which is probably why lubing pellets is not a necessity.


    
This message has been edited by TwiceHorn on Apr 17, 2017 12:07 AM


 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

"So, in theory, the cheapest plain ol' lubricating oil will do the job just fine"

April 18 2017, 8:20 AM 

Yes, "in theory", however dieseling lubes and pellet corrosion can be an issue. When I started lubing hard lead CPLs a couple decades ago for my .177 R9 to reduce the CPL lead fouling I used FP10 which worked just fine, however CPLs lubed with the stuff and then stored in a leather pellet pouch for a while developed a kinda gummy coating that actually fouled the bore quicker than shooting CPLs dry. The next lube I tried was Slick50 OneLube from the aerosol can and I've been using this stuff ever since without the "goopy surface feel" of the FP10.

"lead itself has decent lubricating properties, which is probably why lubing pellets is not a necessity."
I do agree if the pellets are "pure lead", however the alloy of some pellets (Crosman come to mind) do tend to create "fouling issues" that is improved with some lube on the rifling surfaces of the pellet. I have read of some shooters that claim to successfully shoot unlubed pellets without ever cleaning their bores. I'm not one of those so my HW bores get some pulled patches about every box of CPLs. Here's an example.........
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Mark
(Login TwiceHorn)
YF12

CPL

April 18 2017, 9:57 AM 

Good point on the various alloys and their lubricating/leading properties. Most seem to attribute Crosman's leading/fouling/crudding problem to the residue that always seems present on their pellets, but that doesn't mean they're right. I shoot them in my 397 because they're relatively cheap and shoot well, but more "premium" pellets in my HW97.

I had a tin of HNFTT get cruddy from blown stuff (leaves, grass, grit) at the FT range (also some got tumped into my caddy, I guess I need a pellet pouch). So I washed and lubed them with plain ol mineral oil USP. I didn't consider dieseling, but haven't had any or any drop off in accuracy. I put four drops of it on the JSB sponge and rattled them around gently in the tin.

And, yeah Crosman's alloy seems pretty hard, which may account for generating all that dust/residue during manufacturing. My HNs seem significantly harder than the JSBs, perhaps that is a function of skirt thickness?


    
This message has been edited by TwiceHorn on Apr 18, 2017 10:00 AM


 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

Concerning "cruddy" Crosman pellets..........

April 19 2017, 11:05 AM 

I recently bought a tin of the CPHPs to try and the actually shot pretty good from my .177 tight leade (relative to my R9) HW95, however they did have what I'm calling "parting compound" on them (reminded me of powdered graphite) and after the shooting session my loading fingers looked like this.......
[linked image]

A couple years ago I received a case of the boxed 1250 count CPLs and I lubed them as I always did, then went for a shooting session at the back yard lane. Well, I found that the case of CPLs I was shooting from had excess parting compound (or whatever the powder was) and the mix of pellet lube + powder made a really good "barrel fouling compound" so I washed those boxes of Crosman pellets.

That incident sent me on a season long search for pellets that didn't require washing or lubing. I tried JSBs Exacts and H&N FTTs and while those pellets indeed were clean and didn't need lubing, they were also extremely variable from pellet to pellet, even from the same tin with rather frequent fliers. I measured several thousand of each brand and confirmed what I supposed.....the size on the tin label meant nothing because there were pellets in the 4.50mm tins that were larger than pellets from the 4.52mm tins and pellets from the 4.52mm tins that were smaller than those from the 4.50mm tins. I then decided to go back to the boxed die lot marked and dated 1250 count boxes and wash if needed. Lubing is rather quick and easy, however washing pellets is a messy hassle! The next case of CPLs I received were "crud free" to my delight not requiring washing so I ordered three more cases and all were "crud free" when I lubed them.

Sorted JSB Exacts and H&N FTTs...........
[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

My stash of clean "die B" CPLs after receiving on June 27th, 2015........
[linked image]
What I had left at May, 2015.........
[linked image]



 
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Quinton Lewis
(Login Domer_Pyle)
YF

Kinda why I scratch my head when people say they don't wash before lubing

April 19 2017, 8:17 PM 

How can one be sure what's actually on the pellet just by close inspection?

 
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Quinton Lewis
(Login Domer_Pyle)
YF

Definitely too pricey to be testing all willy nilly

April 17 2017, 2:50 AM 

I could swear it says in the description on the product page that it's very resistant to solvents but whatever, not enough time to look just now. Hopefully someone has tried it in the bore, I'm really curious to know if it cut down on needing cleaning.

I did just wash some CPHP and gave them a nice film of Krytech, actually White Lighting brand but same thing. My Benji Summit loves the cheapies, never shot at 50 yards for a group until today but 3 shots covered by a dime is nothing to complain about so now I'll see how dirty the barrel is after this tin is up


    
This message has been edited by Domer_Pyle on Apr 17, 2017 2:54 AM


 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

I've been intending to test this out myself, however my stash of CPLs.........

April 17 2017, 9:01 AM 

is already lubed with Slick50 One Lube from the aerosol can. I've been using OneLube for a couple decades and I'm still using from the same can I bought years ago when the can cost $3.29 at an ACE hardware store.
[linked image]
The OneLube stuff does work well for reducing "CPL barrel fouling issues" with careful application but it does diesel if it gets into the pellet skirt.

Since so little Krytox would be used for lubing a box of CPLs (about 3 drops spread thinly inside the container) that a 1oz bottle costing about $30 would go a LONG way! The only purpose of lubing CPLs is to get a film of lube on the pellet rifling surfaces so "charging" the pellet lubing container once would be good for several boxes of CPLs. For pellets with a more "pure lead alloy" (like the JSB,H&N etc) I really don't know if I'd even mess with lubing at all. Even with the hard lead CPLs the only benefit I found with lubing was that barrel cleaning chores were reduced and when cleaning was required I only needed to pull through a few patches with my CrownSaver.
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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Quinton Lewis
(Login Domer_Pyle)
YF

Here's the scoop on solvent resistance

April 18 2017, 1:11 AM 

http://store.tmcindustries.com/PFPE-Cleaning-Solvents_c_37.html

Unaffected by organic solvents, the cleaner they sell to remove Krytox is $85 for a 3 pound bottle

 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

There are some "Krytox scare stories" on the airgun forums that..............

April 18 2017, 2:18 PM 

really have little to do with the use in piston guns IMHO. Here are a few FAQs..........
http://www.tri-statetech.com/krytox-frequently-asked-questions.html
https://www.chemours.com/Lubricants/en_US/sales_support/FAQs.html

A couple examples.........
1. Every trace of "dinosaur grease" needs to be removed because it doesn't mix with Krytox.
"The performance of the grease mixture will be limited by the properties of the non-PFPE grease in the mixture. Krytox™ grease will not react with the other grease or cause decomposition or any hazardous reactions"
and
"Before adding Krytox™ grease to a bearing, the bearing should be cleaned of all existing greases, oils, or preservative oils used during storage. If hydrocarbon oils are left in a bearing, the oils can form carbon deposits at high temperatures, which may accelerate bearing failure.
and
"The Krytox™ grease will not stop the other lubricant from breaking down from heat and oxidation. It is likely that the additives in the hydrocarbon grease have coated the bearing surfaces and the Krytox™ grease will not be able to adhere to the bearing, so most of it might get thrown out of the bearing."

IMHO, the mixing of Krytox and "dinosaur grease" can have a negative effect on industrial bearings however I've found that simply stripping the "petro lubes" from parts with Brake or carb cleaner has been sufficient for relubing with Krytox in my springers.

Another criticism of Krytox is that it can decompose into potentially hazardous compounds if over heated to 572F..........
http://www.idealvac.com/files/MSDS/Krytox_LVP_Grease_MSDS.pdf
"SECTION 2.
HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Emergency Overview
The product as such is not hazardous. The thermal decomposition vapours of fluorinated polymers may cause polymer fume fever with flu-like symptoms in humans, especially when smoking contaminated tobacco.
Potential Health Effects
Eyes: May cause eye irritation.
Carcinogenicity: None of the components present in this material at concentrations equal to or greater than 0.1% are listed by IARC, NTP, or OSHA, as a carcinogen."

My comments to this.........
*If I smoked I certainly wouldn't smear it on a cigarette before lighting!
*Since I don't smoke I still don't make it a habit to sniff my muzzle after each shot so I don't get "flu-like symptoms in humans"!
*"May cause eye irritation", yep, does cause the eyes to itch for a while if there is some Krytox residue on the fingers when rubbing the eyes! Not a biggie but annoying in the least so I take care to "Wash off with soap and plenty of water" as instructed after use.

 
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Quinton Lewis
(Login Domer_Pyle)
YF

Thanks for all the info

April 18 2017, 5:14 PM 

I think I may grab a small tub of Ultimox 226 and try it in one of my project guns, my collection is predominantly springers so it wouldn't go to waste and the curiosity has got me good whether it will help keep a bore clean longer. The benefits over moly paste in the compression chamber are very intriguing as well

 
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