Corrosion in Daystate RegalJuly 12 2017 at 10:25 PM
|Joe Dup (Login JoeDup)|
I've had my Daystate Regal XL in .177 for about 5 months. I've been filling it with a Benjamin hand pump. I fill indoors to reduce the moisture content of the air I'm pumping. The gun recently developed a leak at the junction of the air tube and the fill valve. I sent it in under warranty. I just received the bad news yesterday that moisture and then oxidation had damaged the orings on the front and rear of the air reservoir. The tech told me that is NOT covered under warranty. Cost...$152.17. Ouch! Just a heads up to anyone in the same situation. Time for a tank.
Moisture does NOT corrode rubber o-rings... n/t
|July 13 2017, 7:31 AM |
I think I'd be asking for pics of that.....doesn't seem right.....n/t
|July 13 2017, 8:19 AM |
Moisture from hand pumps
|July 13 2017, 8:35 AM |
Pumping indoors does very little to reduce moisture from hand pumps. You have to get the dew point down to about 0 deg F to be really effective. The moisture can easily corrode any aluminum parts in the tube (valves, gauge blocks, etc.), and that granular corrosion oxide can cut/scratch the o-rings. The lack of effective moisture filters for hand pumps is a real problem. The little harbor freight desiccant filters do almost nothing (the air isn't in the filter long enough to get the moisture out).
John in FL.
In this case aluminum cuts steel easily. nt
|July 13 2017, 10:25 AM |
FX and Hill pumps
|July 13 2017, 5:15 PM |
So, has anyone had moisture/corrosion problems with these pumps? I have several buddies that have been using these pumps for less than a year with no ill effects. Are the small on board moisture traps really effective?
I've seen that issue
|July 13 2017, 8:39 PM |
Just recently. I rebuilt a leaking Marauder for a friend who used a hand pump. The inside was all white with corrosion and the end caps were both corroded and the orings hard as a rock. I was able to salvage it but don't know how long before it develops another leak. I told him he needs to buy a tank or install some sort of filter on his hand pump.
I used a Hill MkII with DryPac for two years with no signs of any moisture
|July 15 2017, 10:48 AM |
I used it fill a .22 Marauder that I shot a lot. When I took it apart to do some upgrades, I saw no signs of moisture in the gun at all.
The Hill beads are not silica - they are molecular sieve and are NOT indicating and Hill says they can't be regenerated. They dry the air much better than silica does though.
The lack of any indicating feature means you pretty much have to replace them based on time, and they are not cheap (although at ~$170 per repair that pays for a lot of beads). But used as directed, they do work.
To preserve the function of the beads as much as possible, I would remove the DryPac and place it in a Ziploc when the pump was not in use - the beads will draw moisture out of ambient air and become saturated if you don't do something to keep them separated from it. I am sure that this fact is tied into the guidance from Hill to change the beads every three months, which I pretty much still did, so I probably was changing them more than needed - but with an indicator you have no idea if the beads are still working or not. But I chose the better safe than sorry route . . .
The real key to avoid passing much moisture into your gun with a hand pump is to use the pump slow and steady for short sessions of less than 50 strokes, then vent it and let it cool down before continuing - the cool base of the pump condenses the moisture out of the compressed air, and once you have pumped more than about about 50 strokes the base will heat up and that increases the amount of water vapor that can pass into the gun (plus it helps with the longevity of the pump o-rings, which is the usual reason for this advice). Hand pumps don't technically pass "water" into the guns, but they do pass "water vapor" than condenses into water when the air charge cools in the gun. The cooler that air charge is, the less water vapor can be held in it to be passed into the gun. Using a upstream dryer properly can help further.
I have moved on to tanks and a Shoebox, and a use a big Wilkerson silica bead dryer (it holds about a pound and a half) to feed it and I see no signs of moisture using that either. So if the dryer is big enough (and used correctly) it can clearly work.
|July 18 2017, 9:04 AM |
You can buy it from Delta Adsorbents in bulk for a LOT less than what Hill charges for that little bag. Pretty sure its the 3A 8-12mesh size. 5lbs. is around 40bux. BTW, MS CAN be regenerated. Takes high heat but can be done.
Just to mention...
|July 13 2017, 9:22 PM |
..the only rust I've founf in an air tube must have been "factoy rust" as it was in there when I opened a new PCP out the box.
Now just think...if I had not opened it up right away, WHATEVER I filled it with would have gotten the blame....pump, air tank, or n2 tank. Human nature, we all pretty much EXPECT a brnad new PCP to be internally rust free.
EXACT same thing happened to me with my Regal XL
|July 14 2017, 1:57 PM |
I ponied up the $170, and bought a Hill MK3 with moisture trap. Again, i'm not sure whether what they said was correct or not, i didn't tear down the gun myself to see what they did/did not do. It doesn't make sense to me though, you should be able to fill these PCPs with handpumps.
low and behold It started leaking again. I ended up trading it for a FX streamline.
|This message has been edited by dnullify on Jul 14, 2017 1:59 PM|
You should be able..
|July 14 2017, 5:12 PM |
"It doesn't make sense to me though, you should be able to fill these PCPs with handpumps."
You can fill it with chicken soup if you want to but if you want the gun to perform as designed you should fill it with "dry" air. It is not the guns at fault when you fill it with water.
Charter member of Over The Hill Gang
|This message has been edited by TerryVanpool on Jul 14, 2017 5:13 PM|
I like that
|July 15 2017, 9:21 AM |
"You can fill it with chicken soup if you want to but if you want the gun to perform as designed you should fill it with "dry" air. It is not the guns at fault when you fill it with water."
The lack of effective moisture filters is certainly a major deficiency that needs to be addressed. I think that an effective filter would have to be something in the 2 liter size, clear plastic, filled with an indicating desiccant, on the inlet side of the hand pump. The large size is needed to have the air in the filter long enough for the moisture to be absorbed into the desiccant.
I've read driers need to be on the output side so pressure forces
|July 15 2017, 3:52 PM |
the moist air into the desiccant & strips away the moisture. Otherwise, the moist air will just flow around the desiccant & not through the media itself (I believe it was written by Joe B).
Seems a drier like those used in shoebox setups could be attached to the upright of a pump, the output of the pump goes into the drier, then an output comes out of the other end of the drier & goes into the airgun to be filled.
|This message has been edited by Diamondback on Jul 15, 2017 3:53 PM|
|July 15 2017, 4:12 PM |
High pressure moisture filters work on the output of compressors because the moisture is more concentrated. If you can keep moisture from getting into the compressor, you're much better off. Some big compressed air facilities use things like refrigerated dryers on the high pressure side (usually just "house" air pressure) to drop the moisture out at 0 deg. F, or so. For a hand pump, having a moisture filter on the output of the pump isn't practical. Any decent sized moisture filter would be larger than the reservoir of most guns, and you would double the pumping strokes needed to fill the gun. In a large, low pressure desiccant filter, the air would would stay in the filter long enough to get the moisture out.
|This message has been edited by DougWall on Jul 15, 2017 9:52 PM|
The word from AOA
|July 17 2017, 5:46 PM |
I just got off of the phone with the AOA service tech. They cleaned out the moisture and corrosion, replaced the orings and pressure tested it. It failed the pressure test so they replaced the air cylinder. I'm still out the $152.50 but have a new cylinder. The tech told me he's seen the Benjamin hand pumps cause this problem several times. He said the FX pump with the moisture trap " is very effective" in keeping moisture out of the gun. I don't mind pumping, but I'm going with a CF tank for peace of mind. In summer, South Louisiana temps run in the mid 90's with a relative humidity to match. I'll play it safe.
Dang, just a few years ago I was complaining about paying $250 for a Diana M34 BB GUN! Now I have a $1000 gun and will soon have a $700 tank. Oh, well, y'all know how it is. :^ )