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Something To Think About

September 11 2017 at 7:18 AM
Frank Alessio  (Login fsa70)
YF12

Wow, was this an eye opener for me. I have probably 25 ( 500 ) tins each of JSB 7.33 and JSB 7.87 pellets that I use in my FWB 300s. The JSB 7.87 shoot the best in three 300s and the JSB 7.33 in the other two. All five shoot both pellets great so I buy them in bulk.

However, after shooting some JSB 7.33 from my last order ( 10 tins ) I was all over the target at 25 yards. I can shoot dime size groups and better at 25 yards consistently and now quarter size with a lot of flyers. At first I thought it was the gun but after trying them in all of my 300s I realized it was the pellets.

Upon inspection the pellets look fine with an occasional bent skirt that you'll find in ALL tins but nothing noticeable that woulds cause the terrible accuracy.

So, I started to open every tin and shoot 10 pellets from each tin. The results were discouraging, of the 10 tins 5 were sub standard, the other 5 were , well not to bad, not great but doable.

JSB no longer puts lot numbers on the tins so it's trial and error.

My point is, keep in mind I already know that the JSB 7.33 pellets shoot amazing in my 300s and do in most owners 300s.

Can you imagine if someone just purchased a 300 and was trying to decide what pellet shot best in his/her gun and just bought this lot of pellets. They would think the 7.33 wasn't the right pellet when in fact it might be.

I don't know what the answer is but does this give you something to think about when trying to determine what pellet to used in your new springer or any other airgun for that matter.

I'm fortunate to already know the two pellets that work in mine and glad I'm not just starting off with this lot.

I'll be contacting the company I bought them from and see what they have to say. Very reputable supplier.

 
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arbiter17
(Login arbiter17)
YC

Point taken.

September 11 2017, 7:56 AM 

However, your post is exactly why I don't rely upon a single pellet/weight for any of my air powered arms. Most of my guns shoot well with 3 or more pellets. Now granted, I am not shooting world class match rifles, but I keep my ranges short (30ish yds.) and only use the most accurate ammunition for critical applications. JSB and H&N both have served me very well over time in several calibers, with RWS and Crosman on hand as backup. I hope you find satisfactory customer service with your supplier.

 
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Joe Wayne Rhea
(Login JoeWayneRhea)

Great post frank

September 11 2017, 8:29 AM 

My guns shoot jsb and AirArms in 7.33 & 7.87 best . I have pretty much switched to AA pellets because when you have a good tin you can call and ask for that lot number .

 
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Frank Alessio
(Login fsa70)
YF12

Right On Joe

September 11 2017, 11:12 AM 

I didn't mention it in my post because it was the JSBs I was referring to, but like you, I also have GREAT results with the Falcon 7.33 pellets.In fact as I was having this problem I also shot the Falcons just to confirm it was the pellets that were bad and not the gun. The Falcons were laying them in under a dime at 25 yards.

I didn't know that about requesting certain lots if available with the AA pellets. Thanks so much for the "heads-up" Joe.


    
This message has been edited by fsa70 on Sep 11, 2017 5:17 PM


 
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Dick
(Login Strever)
GM

lot numbers on the tins

September 11 2017, 11:58 AM 

it is NOT JSB removing the die/lot number tags
it is Pyramyd
they sell so many pellets they do not want to be bothered by shooters who find and want a die number so they requested the die number sticker be eliminated from the tins
JSB still puts the sticker with die & lot number on the boxes and cases the pellets come in
BUT Pyramyd will not let you have the pellet boxes or case boxes
most of the other pellet suppliers who buy from JSB will have the tags on the tins or they will let you have the boxes with the tag so you can identify by die/lot number the good or bad pellets
""

 
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Tyler Patner
(Login Tpatner412)
YC

Re: lot numbers on the tins

September 11 2017, 1:32 PM 

It's got nothing to do with Pyramyd. It was a switch made by the US importer some years ago now. Sometimes the lot sticker is underneath the barcode sticker and sometimes it is not. I've seen both recently.
The boxes (or cases if you order that many) are often omitted from packing because of the way Pyramyd packs pellets.
As said above, Air Arms pellets still have the lot/die information on the backs of the tins ALWAYS.

 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

" Sometimes the lot sticker is underneath the barcode sticker".....LOL, like this.........

September 12 2017, 1:27 PM 

5vGMBDxl.jpg

 
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David Enoch
(Login DavidEnoch)
YF

Pellet dies wear out

September 11 2017, 12:06 PM 

I think the problem is two fold. First, dies wear out. Second, pellets are delicate and subject to shipping damage.

David Enoch

 
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BillE.
(Login garczar)
YF12

Damage....................

September 11 2017, 12:34 PM 

Yep. Especially .177's. The skirts are REALLY thin and easily distorted/bent.
"\"\""

 
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Tommy
(Login shambozzie)
YF12

+1 Bille on thin skirts in .177 cal. 8.4 better skirt as 18.1 thicker then 15.9.

September 11 2017, 1:12 PM 


 
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Ed Krzynowek
(Login ekmeister1)
YF12

Is the Head Size Printed on the Back of the Tins You Have There?

September 11 2017, 1:24 PM 

That usually matters IME. I think they always used to have the head size printed on the tins, and once I found the head size that shot the best, shooting more pellets with that same head size has always been a fruitful endeavor to me.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed Krzynowek, The Airgun Tune-Meister


"We can rebuild the squirrel. Make him stronger, faster...We have the technology"---Skyler M.


    
This message has been edited by ekmeister1 on Sep 11, 2017 1:26 PM


 
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Frank Alessio
(Login fsa70)
YF12

Good Point

September 11 2017, 5:16 PM 

No they're not. You make a good point though on the head size.

After reading through this thread I learned a lot. All the AA pellets have the lot numbers and head size on the back of the tins which I didn't know.However, some are under the sticker bar code and the bar code sticker has to be removed carefully to see it.

On the JSB pellets, the pellets that I use mostly are the 7.33 and 7.87 and those have the bar code stamped on the back with no info. It's strange though because the other sizes, JSB 8.4 and JSB 10.4 have a sticker bar code and there is a lot number and head size under those, go figure.

 
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Ed Krzynowek
(Login ekmeister1)
YF12

You Can Try A Little Heat to Reveal the Hidden Label

September 12 2017, 11:47 PM 

This is assuming the tin of pellets is now upside-down so you can see the labels on the underside of the tin. Please note that patience and a delicate touch are the keys for getting this to work.

Start by prying-up just the very corner of the label on top with your fingers--just enough to get it started--don't try to remove it yet. Then get a blow dryer and blow just a little bit of heated air across the top label that's covering the other one underneath. The top label should, unless they're just hopelessly glued together, come off in your fingers as you pull it the rest of the way off while still applying a little heat. Then you can read the writing that was hidden on the label that's attached directly to the tin. That usually works for me. If you use too much heat, though, it will probably mess up both labels beyond legibility.

BTW, if this is so obvious that it comes across as an insult to your intelligence, you have my sincerest apologies!

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed Krzynowek, The Airgun Tune-Meister


"We can rebuild the squirrel. Make him stronger, faster...We have the technology"---Skyler M.


    
This message has been edited by ekmeister1 on Sep 12, 2017 11:50 PM


 
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TMurray
(Login bustachip)
YF12

Either way, it still comes down to the fact...

September 11 2017, 5:01 PM 

that jsb pellets are smaller in size than years ago, ( they never were really snug
but much looser now a days) and therefore is the problem with all the loose fitting pellets that causes flyers and inconsistent grouping.

Just the way I see it. I will say that the AA blue tin 7.87's fit my 75 pretty good
and I have shot some small groups with them.

TM


    
This message has been edited by bustachip on Sep 11, 2017 5:03 PM


 
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C. Jones
(Login limbshaker)
YF12

^^TMurray is right on the money

September 11 2017, 8:54 PM 

JSB pellets have gotten smaller in recent years. I measured a few tins of 18.1gr with a Leadhead pellet measuring tool (like in Ted's video) and couldn't find any that were a solid 5.52-5.53mm. And most were barely a 5.50mm. Needless to say, most of my guns that did well with JSBs now are useless with them.

H&N has a good idea by offering different head sizes, but the ones I tried in .177 were all over the place. The tin of 4.53mm were all 4.50-4.51. So that's basically worthless if you were expecting a "fatter" pellet. Good thing the Crosman Premiers in the box are still decent.

To any of you that like JSBs, I would highly recommend buying only the Air Arms branded ones. They seem to be a lot truer to size overall. Whether it be .177 or .22 caliber. I have converted over to the AAs with pretty good results so far.




 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

A while back I tried a tin of JSB Exacts labelled 4.50mm and they shot really good........

September 12 2017, 8:15 PM 

from my .177 R9, however they were looser fitting than I liked so I ordered 8 tins of Exacts labelled 4.52mm. In the past I reported my bad experience with the supposedly 4.52mm tins where I even had two dry fires at a field target match with the R9 and would have had a third if I didn't see the pellet flipping out of my leade when re-latching the barrel.

That episode started marathon pellet head measuring sessions which ended up with a few thousand supposedly 4.52mm pellets being measured....
udeSRarl.jpg
Some actually measured 4.52mm but most measured 4.50/4.51mm with the second most pellets measuring 4.49mm. LOL....after all the measuring I wondered why JSB even listed supposed head size on the tins!

Thinking that perhaps my "measuring technique" was questionable I measured a bunch of Air Arms domes labelled 4.52mm and I had a much higher percentage of pellets actually measuring 4.52mm so my measuring technique was indeed verified to my satisfaction.

 
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Mike (revoman)
(Login revoman)
YF12

While I like the JSB and AA pellets, I have found

September 11 2017, 8:11 PM 

that the H&N brand pellets give that accuracy a run for the money.
They always have the head size listed and my rifle likes the .22 caliber 5.52 diameter. Tried 5.50, 5.51, 5.53's without much luck in the accuracy department.
I like the H&N brand a lot and shoot them most out of my .22 S510.

 
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Patrick
(Login pat601)
YF12

I too was disappointed by a PA tin of 7.33 JSBs

September 12 2017, 12:49 AM 

Several tins did very well....then I opened a tin of flyers....grrrr...

I switched over to the AA falcons and virtually every FWB 300S I shot preferred the AA 7.89 with the AA 7.33 falcons either tied or shot only slightly second best for accuracy....(that's about 20 FWB300S).....25yds accuracy comparisons....

(FWB 300s at the 10yd range.... RWS wadcutters, HN wadcutters, Crosman cheapies can shoot some astounding small groups but at 25, 35, 45, 55yds the AA packaged 7.87s and 7.33 have proven more consistent than the JSB packaged version.

Yes Frank it would be nice to buy pellets from a specific lot or head size that's known to perform in a particular gun...frustrates when you pay $14.00 a tin for flyers.

 
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Jerry
(Login JCTX)
YF12

pellet variation

September 12 2017, 8:16 AM 

Hello, Frank and all,

Disclaimer: Pelletgage is my product, and it is designed to be an accurate and repeatable tool for determining pellet head diameter. I don't intend this as a sales pitch, though.

Since you have successful experience with a particular pellet, accurately determining the head diameter of those particular lots of "good" pellets is a starting point. My first thought is that there is excessive head diameter variation in some of your tins.

In my target shooting experience, and based on customer feedback, JSB is a good choice. They form cut lead wire chunks into spherical shape, weight sort, and use lot controls and managed die sets for swaging, and they have both manual inspection and test firing from bench rifles to produce a quality pellet. They make all the AA pellets, and it is likely that other controls are imposed on the production of these premium pellets.

While I've seen tins of my favorite JSB Exact 4.52 mm 10.3 grain pellets where almost every pellet is the same diameter (as determined by Pelletgage), I have also seen tins where some pellets vary 0.03 mm from mean, and tins where the mean diameter shifts by 0.02 mm.

So, a starting point is to get some of those "known good" tins (or lots) and determine the head size your gun prefers precisely.

While micrometers (and in some cases calipers) may give you a diameter, consider that typical accuracy of good calipers is +/- 0.001 inch, which is 0.025 mm. Micrometers are up to 10X more accurate. If you use these, skill and great care will be needed for valid results, and only one chord across the sphere is being measured. I believe some efforts to correlate head diameter with group size have invalid findings if the measurement method is not well controlled.

My own thoughts are that a "good" tin of pellets should:
1) not shift mean head diameter more than 0.01 mm from the desired nominal size
2) have 95% (or more) of the pellets within +/- 0.01 mm of mean size

While the idea of sorting all the pellets in a tin may seem onerous, sampling 50 pcs will statistically verify this, and is not so time consuming. To confirm the above, not more than one pellet should exceed the limits, and the mean size should be within 0.01 mm of the desired size.

Your gun may produce nice groups with say, 4.51 mm pellets, and again, with 4.53 pellets. However, testing might show that there is a POI shift in the grouping (a pretty common claim). In such cases, groups resulting from shooting a mixed batch of pellets is larger, and really a combination of two better groups.

Cliff Tharp published a (now retired) BLOG about his experiences as an airgun varmint hunter. He had issues with pellets, and went to some lengths to find the causes. In one instance, tins of pellets with a lot of skirt damage were tested, and the findings were a surprise.

https://web.archive.org/web/20161021083857/http://varmintair.typepad.com:80/varmintairs_blog/pellets/

I believe there are other possible factors in play.

During swaging, a punch shaft presses the lead sphere (or wire chunk) into the die. The result is a cylindrical cavity in the back of the pellet. There are instances where this cavity changes in position, depth, and even diameter. For "bolt action" loading, the probe of the loading mechanism may push the pellet into the leade at varying depths.

Any swarf or imprecise parting leaving residual material on the skirt margin can affect rotational inertia, and affect ballistics. I've seen a few tins where this is an issue.

An inexpensive headband magnifier with 2-3X power is very useful to look for physical irregularity.

Now, all the above may not have much validity if you are not shooting an accurate rifle in a very consistent manner - a challenge for all of us. I have had perhaps ten customers reply to me that they were gratified to find that pellets were the cause that had them adjusting/re-mounting scopes, cleaning barrels, questioning their own vision and hold, and then discarding some tin(s) that exhibit the issue.

There are some other notes you may find useful at the Pelletgage.com Facebook page. Good luck!

regards,

Jerry


 
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Gary in FL
(Login GLPalinkas)
YF12

Thank You Jerry

September 16 2017, 4:44 PM 

Jerry, I don't know you and have never met you but I bought and used one of your pellet gauges and found a significant difference in groupings between sorted and unsorted pellets. I used a .22 cal Pelletgage and it helped a great deal. It may be that my less than accurate Benjamin Discovery responded better to the sorted pellets and that my now RAW HM1000 .177 would not respond as well because it is significantly more accurate than my Disco was happy.gif

Anyway, I appreciate your product and will be ordering one for my newly acquired .177 rifles.

Thanks again for a great product and taking the time to help further the accuracy of those obsessive/compulsive types among us.....


    
This message has been edited by GLPalinkas on Sep 16, 2017 4:45 PM


 
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