TWA Flight 800 Investigation
 


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Back to common sense

January 2 2001 at 6:33 PM
  (Login globaltwo)
from IP address 168.191.57.254

 
Please forgive me if the following points have been made previously. I only recently joined the list. I've read most of the past postings since October but cannot claim to have read or remembered everything.

Some serious questions have been raised here (and elswhere) about the terrorist missile theory/ies. Foremost in my mind are three very general points. The most baffling of these, from my perspective is:

(1) Why would the US government be so desparate to cover up a terrorist attack?

One can certainly understand that the US government would rather not have its citizens know that such an event took place (assuming it did).* But having a desparate need to go to SUCH lengths, engaging in a now nearly 5 year long massive effort to cover up the actions of a hostile group or nation, takes that logic to an altogether bizarre extreme. Or so it seems to many.


(2) If this were a terrorist attack, why did all the US military vessels in the area either remain indifferent or turn away from the alleged launch sites?

If the above point is incorrect in its key assumptions, please correct me. But if it is correct, it would be absolutely impossible to believe that our own military would just look the other way. Again, we've all heard this very good question at other 800 sites. Has Mr. Donaldson addressed this point?

(3) Why would terrorists establish such an elaborate plan, with two different launch sites, to shoot down an aircraft that normally would have been thousands of feet higher than it actually was? It was only because of unlucky chance (so the argument goes) that TWA800 was so low so far out from JFK airport. Normally it would have been at least a mile higher. Why not choose a launch site closer to the airport?


Again, these points are not original, or nothing new. I'm wondering how many of you feel, as I do, that these are the most significant theoretical weaknesses in the terrorist scenario (at least the first two of them.) My own opinion is that Donaldson's is by far the most comprehensive and intriguing TWA800 site. But I do feel he needs to address these key points more directly and thoroughly to satisfy a lot of skeptical readers.


A very happy new year to everyone.

global two

*One well known investment newsletter even claimed that James Kallstrom said in private that "if the American people knew that a missile brought down TW800 they would freak."

 
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(Login Bardonia)
205.188.200.183

Common Sense points at Iran

January 2 2001, 9:57 PM 

There are two possible explanations for the TWA 800 downing:

1) The "Friendly Fire" theory:
The U.S. Navy was conducting an exercise in which the two missiles fired from north of the aircraft's flight path were meant to intercept a "drone missile" launched from a position south of TWA 800's flight path. Unfortunately, TWA 800 had been delayed in its climb to cruising altitude and was struck by the drone missile and was destroyed by the two intercepting missiles.

2 The "State-sponsored Terrorism" theory
This has two parts....

a) The simultaneous firing of three terrorist missiles in a triangulated attack on TWA 800 was a state-sponsored attack. The U.S. government was conducting an anti-terrorism operation knowing that missiles had been fired at commercial aircraft off the East Coast of the United States prior to the downing of TWA 800. It failed to prevent the attack.

b) The U.S. government was conducting an anti-terrorism operation knowing that missiles had been fired at commercial aircraft off the East Coast of the United States prior to the downing of TWA 800. Two terrorist missiles fired from north of TWA 800's flight path were also travelling in the direction of a vessel sailing to the south of TWA 800's flight path. One missile was launched from this vessel in response to this perceived threat. (A very similar mistake was made by the USS Vincennes when it mistakenly shot down an Iranian airbus airliner over the Persian Gulf on July 3, 1988.

The evidence presented on my website

http://hometown.aol.com/bardonia

favors 2a as the most probable cause. Several of the main Internet researchers who share technical information and ideas, agree on the general details of the "What happened?" question while disagreeing on the "Who caused it?" question. I have focused on the terrorist explanation for reasons which will become clear as you peruse the documentation presented on the website.

For a complete discourse on the "Friendly Fire" explanation you might begin with the TWA Case Files website at:  

http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/default.htm

I suggest,however, that the U.S. government knew terrorist missile launches were occurring in the Long Island area prior to, and after, the TWA 800 incident and had tried unsuccessfully to prevent them. James Kallstrom admitted in a telephone conversation with Reed Irvine of Accuracy in Media that there were U.S. Naval vessels under Flight 800 on a classified "maneuver".  Was this "classified maneuver" an anti-terrorist operation? Circumstantial evidence shows that TWA 800 was brought down by the Osama bin Laden organization and the downing was one of a series of missile attacks in the NY metropolitan area from November 1995 through the summer of 1997. At the time of the TWA 800 downing Osama bin Laden had a "formal" agreement with the government of Iran to attack American and Israeli interests. A war with Iran in 1996 was not in the long term interest of the United States given that in the Iranian elections a government more inclined to open a dialog with the West was moving into power under Present Khatami.  Thus in my opinion the United States government decided to declare that the center fuel tank of the TWA 800 aircraft exploded from an ignition source which is unknown and leave matters at that.

The same policy appears to have been followed in another terrorist attack funded by Iran.

July 3, 2000    NewsMax.com    
U.S. Sides With Iran Over Terrorist Victim The Clinton-Gore administration admits destroying 900 subpoenaed records needed to force Iran to compensate an American family whose daughter died in a terrorist attack. The victim's father is alleging the Justice Department got rid of its own files deliberately to avoid having to seize Iranian frozen assets to pay a $24 million judgment against Iran that the New Jersey family won in 1998. The administration is making an effort to placate the new government of Iran, which is on the State Department's list of terrorist states. The issue of Iranian financial assets frozen in the United States is key to Washington's hopes of resolving amicably its differences with Tehran. According to the World Tribune: Stephen Flatow's daughter, Alisa, was killed in 1995 in Gaza during an attack on an Israeli bus by the Islamic Jihad terrorist group under orders of Iran. He said his family had requested the 800 to 900 documents, related to licensing of U.S. transactions with Iran, as part of the family's effort to seize part of the Iranian frozen assets as compensation to satisfy the judgment. Flatow said a Justice Department attorney, Andrea Cohen, wrote to him that those files were destroyed due to lack of storage space. "We are beyond shock," Flatow said. "We are disgusted. And, if it turns out that the destruction was purposeful, I am going to see to it that heads roll at Treasury."

Perhaps this is the correct policy to follow as events have revealed.

February 21, 2000    NY Times
In unusually bold language, the Clinton Administration welcomed the election results in Iran today and said it interpreted them as an unequivocal demand for greater freedom within the country and for improved relations abroad. "By all indications this is an event of historic proportions," the State Department spokesman, James P. Rubin, said this evening, referring to the partial results available so far. The vote showed, he said in a statement, that the Iranian people want "engagement with the rest of the world" and "made clear their preference for greater freedoms within Iran." The parliamentary election, the most open since the fall of the Shah, has been long awaited by the Clinton administration as a test of whether it could turn around the hostile relations of the last 20 years before Mr. Clinton leaves office. A series of American inducements for opening a dialogue over the last several years, including a secret message from President Clinton last August, have all been spurned by the Iranian leadership. With the strengthening of President Mohammad Khatami's moderate forces in Iran, the Clinton administration clearly hopes that the stonewalling will at least be reduced and that Mr. Khatami will be able to make inroads into the power preserves of the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who controls the military, intelligence services and the judiciary. In tonight's statement, the State Department cautioned that it remained to be seen whether the "clear hopes of the Iranian people can be translated to reality." "Obviously we hope that the trends of the elections will be reflected by a different approach to the outside world," Mr. Rubin said. In that regard, he said, the United States was most concerned to see whether Iran would change its opposition to the Middle East peace negotiations and whether it would cease its support of terrorist groups seeking to derail the current rounds of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians and between Israel and Syria. The United States has recently stepped up its accusations against Iran for supporting such terrorist groups. For the United States to take real advantage of the election results, it must first find someone authoritative to talk to. The first move by the administration will most likely be to search for a way to open substantive talks, a senior administration official said today. The official pointed out, that even North Korea -- which has hostile relations with the United States and which, like Iran, is on the State Department's list of countries that sponsor state terrorism -- has official talks with the United States. Ever since Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright offered in June 1998 to draw up a "road map" to re-establish relations with Iran, the Iranian government has rebuffed the administration. Last year, the administration was rebuffed again when President Clinton sent a message that the United States had information concerning the involvement of "Iranian government officials and others" in the bombing of an American military building in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 American servicemen. In the letter, Mr. Clinton attempted to gain Iranian cooperation in the case and at the same time to test the willingness of the moderates in Tehran to engage the United States. The United States, in addition to trying to start a dialogue with Iran, has some leverage with the wide range of sanctions that have been imposed on its government. Many of these were imposed by executive order and can be lifted without the approval of Congress, where there has been criticism of Mr. Clinton's efforts to reach out to Iran. In 1995, President Clinton cited Iranian support for terrorist groups as the reason for banning all American trade with country. Some of these sanctions were relaxed to allow the sale of grain and medicine. And last December, the administration allowed Boeing to sell parts to Iran's national airline so as to ensure the safety of its Boeing 747 passenger aircraft.

Unfortunately in covering up the Iranian-sponsored attack on TWA 800 the NTSB has set a precedent that eyewitness testimony of criminal events is not to be believed. The NTSB was unable to understand the eyewitness testimony since it was excluded from this testimony by the FBI.

March 21, 2000   CNN
More than 700 witness accounts of what happened the night that TWA Flight 800 crashed into the Atlantic Ocean, killing all 230 aboard, are too conflicting to lead to any conclusions, federal investigators say. Two new reports from the National Transportation Safety Board on Tuesday again dismissed theories -- all based solely on witness reports -- that the Boeing 747 may have been downed by a missile in July 1996. Investigators believe the crash was caused by a center fuel tank explosion possibly brought on by sparks from worn wiring, but their findings are still not complete. Of the 755 people who reported seeing the explosion, only 38 said they saw a streak of light rising straight up or nearly so -- and those accounts "seem to be inconsistent with the ... flight path" of the plane, the NTSB said. The NTSB, in its Witness Group Study report, said, "FBI witness interviewing was focused on the possibility that a missile had been used against the accident airplane. This focus may have resulted in bias on the part of some of the interviewers. "Beliefs concerning the possibility of a missile attack may have biased or colored the word choices used in reporting the witness accounts; therefore, these accounts must be interpreted carefully." A total of 258 witnesses observed a streak of light, the NTSB said. Investigators believe the streaks of light may have been from the plane during some stage of its flight before it exploded in a fireball. The NTSB witness reports conclude that the cause of the explosion cannot be determined through eyewitness accounts alone. Some witness accounts were too vague, some were too specific, and some contradictory, investigators said. The witnesses were on land, sea and air. Some were surfers. Many may have been influenced by news media reports about the explosion, investigators said. Most did not realize they were watching a plane explode, thinking rather that what they saw was some sort of fireworks display or other event.

 
 
No FOB
(Login NoFOB)
216.68.43.196

Evidence of Terrorist Act is Unconvincing

January 3 2001, 1:10 PM 

The points made by the original poster are basically correct. Why would the US government cover-up such an act? To appease Iran? No.

It's a natural tendency to try and pin this act on Osama bin Laden, but natural tendencies are often wrong. When bin Laden struck US embassies in Africa in 1998, the US response was to hit his training facilities in Afghanistan with cruise missiles. So why would the US government cover-up a terrorist act by bin Laden in 1996 instead of retaliating? Just to open a dialogue with moderates in the Iranian government? No. That's a completely inadequate explanation for the cover-up. It wouldn't happen. If this act was committed by bin Laden and the US government knew it in 1996, the result would have been the same as in 1998-- military retaliation, not a cover-up.

And there are more than just 2 possible explanations for this incident, i.e., terrorism or a Navy accident. There is a third; a political assassination of one of the passengers on board made to LOOK like an accident. There seems to be a high degree of resistance to honestly looking at the latter possibility by so-called "independent investigators" for whatever reason. Some of those investigators have been far too quick to simply blame terrorists and discount the other possibilities.

The terrorist scenario does not match the physical evidence of the wreckage. TWA800 took a hit from a missile in the forward, starboard cargo bay door area. That's clearly evident in the wreckage photos. A heat-seeking missile fired from a third-world terrorist would not track on the forward section of a plane, but a radar guided missile could. Also, any missile fired from Firing Position #1 would have to have travelled an 11 mile profile to intercept TWA800; that's more than twice the range of any MANPADS.

If US authorities had advance knowledge of a terrorist attack on or around Long Island that day, they would have flooded the coastal area with law enforcement personnel to PREVENT the missile launch as well as try to intercept it. But there was no unusual police/Coast Guard presence off L.I. that day. Also, US Navy vessels in the immediate area did NOT render assistance after the incident. That alone indicates Navy culpability.

And as the original poster noted, there is absolutely NO motive for the cover-up under any terrorist scenario, nomatter how convoluted an explanation one can offer for such.

These facts (and many others) clearly indicate that the terrorist scenario is dead wrong. Too much time has been wasted by ARAP and others chasing ghost terrorists while the real perpetrators of this act go unpunished.

 
 
BBAlexander
(Login BBAlexander)
138.115.11.65

My reasons for coverup......

January 3 2001, 2:13 PM 

1) Why would the US government be so desparate to cover up a terrorist attack?

The question is "Why would Bill Clinton cover this up?" This was appr. 3 weeks prior to the Olympics. It was also an election year. Clinton was already under pressure with his handling of Military and Foreign Affairs. He was also deep into a semi-secret hunt for Osama bin-Laden.

My question is this, "If it became publicly known that the president knew of an impending attack by terrorists, had the military looking for launchers and was trying to keep this quiet right BEFORE the Olympics, what would happen if the voters found out that terrorists could shoot down U.S. airliners off our coast and we couldn't stop them? Would he be re-elected?

Once he made the decision to hide the truth, the coverup HAD to continue because he would be found to be hiding something. BTW, having the FBI investigating the crash sealed all information from the public.

(2) If this were a terrorist attack, why did all the US military vessels in the area either remain indifferent or turn away from the alleged launch sites?

They were too far out of position to render aid. We had a secret task force (my opinion) further to seaward looking for boats or subs. We had a P-3 Orion close in-shore when TWA800 was hit.

For all the public knows, we may have sank a sub involved in this attack. The only people who will know that for sure are the sub-crew and the SOSUS operators.

Anyway, we were looking too far south and east.

(3) Why would terrorists establish such an elaborate plan, with two different launch sites, to shoot down an aircraft that normally would have been thousands of feet higher than it actually was? It was only because of unlucky chance (so the argument goes) that TWA800 was so low so far out from JFK airport. Normally it would have been at least a mile higher. Why not choose a launch site closer to the airport?

You are supposing that the terrorists were using MANPADS? Yes, I know that the FBI was looking for MANPADS. Don't you think they were covering all the bases to figure out what shot down the airplane? Do you think they were possibly looking for other types of missle parts also? It is also within the realm of possibility that they were led to believe that MANPADS were being used (intelligence info).

For all we know, the terrorists may have been using a modified SAM that was radar-homing.



 
 

(Login UKCITIZEN)
195.92.67.66

Untitled

January 3 2001, 3:51 PM 

I don't know about 'Back to common sense' it seems we are heading back to square one and all the questions about why cover up this or that. 'I'm new to this board' is always a flag raiser.

I've also seen a new one appear over the last coupla months, one that's been out for years, but has seen little attention paid to it.

The list of possibles I posted a year ago - plus the corrections and additions applied to it - have grown again, you wouldn't believe how this thing expands in the way it does.

Things happen on this board - I mean the main board, not the discussion board. That's more than can be said for most of the others - hot air is cheap, newcomers can be tedious, they ask questions answered a zillion times on a zillion boards.

It's my opinion, but you can do worse than follow this board, (www.twa800.com) they keep working at it - and what if they do track down the pilot who saw 'THAT BOAT'?

What if he says it was not a ???????????



 
 

(Login globaltwo)
63.178.220.146

Untitled

January 4 2001, 5:51 PM 


Dear TJ


Sorry to be tedious, which is why I already apologized profusely from the start for being a newcomer, for repeating what might already have been said before, and for saying nothing new.

My main reason for bringing up these "newcomer 101" points on this particular forum is because I am interested in how THIS site/board would explain them. They may have been asked and answered a zillion times elsewhere, but not, so far as I can see, on the ARAP site. It is precisely because of my higher respect for the Donaldson site that finally prodded me to post here. I'm new to the forum, not the debate. The current bulletin board appeared to me to go only back to October 9, so I thought by reading back to then, I would see if the points I raise, especially the second, were dealt with. It was not. Again, if it was, and I somehow missed it, forgive me and kindly point me to that post. That seems to me to be the most intriguing point I raised. I still await an adequate account of it, zillions though there may be elsewhere.


Regards,
globe

 
 
TJ
(Login UKCITIZEN)
195.92.67.87

Untitled

January 7 2001, 12:12 PM 

Globe, I meant no disrespect with my post, some people find me tedious too.

This site does not accept that there were Naval vessels in the area at the time, so you're flogging a dead horse with that one.

I still have a deal of respect for the Donaldsons because they are still here, still live and kicking - as it were.

Try the links at the bottom of the main page, if you are new to this site it's a way of finding answers to already asked questions.

If this is a conspiracy, then you can forget everything you read, since it will all be worthless. If it's not, then you should forget everything you read - for the same reason.

See how it balances itself out?

See how your brain hurts?

 
 

(Login Bardonia)
205.188.200.173

Naval Vessels in the Area

January 7 2001, 5:58 PM 

<<<This site does not accept that there were Naval vessels in the area at the time, so you're flogging a dead horse with that one.>>>

Yes - it does. There were naval vessels there on classified business. Kallstrom admitted this on tape. What this site does not accept is that one of these naval vessels was the source of the missiles that brought TWA 800 down.

Sincerely,
Michael Hull

 
 
Trevor Johnston
(Login UKCITIZEN)
195.92.67.67

Untitled

January 8 2001, 6:32 AM 

Michael,

That's not my reading of the position, it seems a deal of energy is being expended to prove that fishing vessels are the radar returns.

Mind you, for years we've read of Russian/British trawlers which aren't what they seem to be, maybe they were all 'trawlers'. (Easy to spot, they have a zillion aerials sticking out the top).

 
 
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