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Comments on the Sander's Residue analysis

March 27 2001 at 10:38 PM
  (Login Author51)
from IP address 63.25.225.70

 
First, I AM NOT going to name this source at this time. My main motive is to shield him from any barrage of followup questions. He was most gracious to assist me. He did comment, that perhaps he was not "qualified" to answer certain questions because, obviously he was simply being asked to attempt to interpret the elemental analysis of the Red residue as published by Sanders. I did find several points interesting......One is his comment on Chlorine......There was NO Chlorine in the Sanders analysis.........HOWEVER the FBI analysis indicated the substance was consistent with "a chlorinated polymeric material".....Based on this you MAY be led to conclude that the FBI in fact was NOT analyzing the Sanders sample at all. ...His comment re: a "flare" is also thought provoking......His comments are below:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Mr. Fiorentino,
I've never seen such a thorough analysis of inorganic elements in an exhaust residue. Without knowing the physical form of the sample I'm reluctant to answer; if it was small particles: what size range, etc? But then, even if I knew I'd probably still have an ignorant answer. It is not the elemental analysis I would expect - but that could depend on what kind of propellant was involved.

If it were an aluminized composite propellant I would expect a preponderance of aluminum oxide particles in the exhaust. If it were a double base propellant I would expect lead to be a more significant element. I would expect some condensed organic residue. Unfortunately, sea water would overwhelm and mask trace amounts of alkali metal impurities that would likely be present and
chlorine - if there had been ammonium perchlorate oxidizer.

Dear Mr. Fiorentino,
You had asked about an exhaust, in which the propellant compounds would mostly have been oxidized to gas and some small particles.

I see no reason why a polymeric binder containing appreciable silicon would be used as a rocket ingredient - the common polybutadyenes used are carbon based. Using silicon would run counter to the objective of minimizing the molecular weight of the exhaust gases. The chemically similar carbon is preferable.

The only purpose of metals added to rocket propellants is to raise the combustion temperature of the chamber flame or to stabilize possible combustion oscillations. It is a disadvantage in terms of the thrust achieved that the combustion product of a metal comes out as a particulate rather than a gas. A composite propellant can be made with only ammonium perchlorate and HTPB or CTPB (hydroxy OR carboxy-terminiated polybutadiene) but there will be trace amounds of other materials and a little metal or metal oxide to stabilize combustion. Alternative double base propellants based on nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine may or may not have additional binder and metal (aluminum) added, but they will contain lead as a stabilizer. The highest energy propellants will contain some amount of (detonable) organic explosive moleciles (e.g., HMX, RDX, CL-20, etc.) in a binder matrix and also possibly some of the other combinations I have mentioned. It is a matter of maximizing the energy conversion of the propellant at the neeeded thrust level and within safety guidelines.

A red flaky residue is not what I would expect unless it had been "chuffed" out of the nozzle relatively unburned - that kind of thing does happen - but is undesirable.



I know of no engineering purpose to have such relatively large amounts of magnesium, silicon, and calcium. Perhaps if it had been a flare, there might be a reason for the magnesium.



 
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Ian Goddard
(Login IanGoddard)
66.44.8.99

Untitled

March 28 2001, 12:09 PM 

John, you need to ask these people also about inscendairy explosives. Sanders believes the residue may be that, as opposed to fuel. In that case, a silicone centent might be present as a binder, since it leads to a slow burn, which in the case of a insendiary warhead might be useful. However, silicone can be used with propellents, I've seen that in some texts, but they say it is not as good as other binders. Here's one example of silicone in rocket propellant I have on file (I think this is for model rockets / fireworks, but the basic physics may still hold):

http://www.webarmor.com/metafire/space/compoDB.html

A collection of pyrotechnic compositions

Chapter 1: Rocket propellants [...]

Blue strobe rocket propellant
Source: Greg Gallacci <psygreg@u.washington.edu
Comments: The GE silicone II is noted for having an ammonia-like odor, where the GE silicones smell more like vinegar.
The dimensions of the rocket made with this propellant were 1 1/8 inch ID, with a 1/2 inch core.
Preparation: Mix the copper oxide, PVC and silicone first, in a plastic bag. Then mix in the ammonium perchlorate. The
stuff is said to be somewhat crumbly, and presses well.

Ammonium perchlorate..............................63
Silicone II.......................................22
Copper(II)oxide...................................10
PVC...............................................5



Blue star #13
Source: Greg Gallacci <psygreg@u.washington.edu
Comments: Makes a bright, robins-egg blue star, with a bushy flame.
Preparation:

Potassium perchlorate.............................70
Silicone..........................................10
Copper(II)oxide...................................10
PVC...............................................15

 
 

(Login UKCITIZEN)
195.92.67.72

Untitled

March 28 2001, 1:22 PM 

Thanks John, it's about time we had another reading of this data.

Keep it up, we may get some answers yet!


 
 
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