I was recently asked by e-mail how the COWL LAMPS were attached to the ARMS on the outside of the cowl.

I've attached a photo here showing that it is just attached with something like SUPER GLUE or similar...

If you need to remove the LAMP ASSEMBLY for some reason, just a couple twists of the lamp will break the old glue seal.



The photo shows the "LOLLIPOP" lamp setting loose out of the arm...If yours is "loose" or needing work/replacement, just add some glue to the SIX SIDES before setting in the ARM.

______________________________________________________________

Additionally, one of these days, I'll be installing new 1928/1929 COWL LAMPS in place of the Shay LOLLIPOPS for a more authentic look....VINTIQUE parts are in hand but the mind isn't willing yet to tackle as I'm contemplating the various methods of removing the ARMS from the under-dash supporting BRACKETS which are epoxied together....See second photo taken under dash of the PASSENGER SIDE next to the RADIO....I am contemplating removal of the arms WITHOUT removal of the BRACKETS so I don't have to get into EPOXY or other work...If all else fails, I'll remove the BRACKETS and reattach with bolts/nuts as Ed Cobbles did in his October 1, 2002 string.




Lastly, I do have information from previous FORUM submissions, as mentioned from Ed Cobble, and also Ron Handy who have already performed the COWL LAMP change as a reference.

Any ideas, suggestions, alternatives or positive comments most welcome.

Reggie

I think the cowl lights are the ugliest part attached to the shay. I removed them completely and filled the hole. A much better look. I don't think because of the design you'll be able to just bolt on the original style. They are quite different. I'd attach photos but I can't. tom

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the comments.

I've researched the subject and there won't be any problems if I have to remove the under-dash BRACKETS.

You are correct in that the new replacement lamps are nothing like the Shay's and I totally agree that the LOLLIPOPS are UGLY!!!

Will post the modification when I tackle it!!

Reggie

I agree with Tom, the Shay cowl lights are really ugly. I removed mine and plugged the holes with plastic plugs from a local hardware store painted to match the body color. I purchased 2 amber turn signal lights from Brattons part # 20430, they mount in the space between the bumper bars. Ill be wiring them up when it gets a little warmer out.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I'm aware of the type of signal lights you are talking about that fit between the front bumper segments...We have a couple Model A's in our club that have installed them as they want to keep their Model A's looking as authentic as possible..In other words, NOT to add a RIGHT SIDE TAILLIGHT as Model A's only had the LEFT SIDE LIGHT due they were not equipped with SIGNAL LIGHTS.

Thanks for your comment of the LOLLIPOPS being UGLY as well...This is the reason I'm installing Model A COWL LAMPS.

Reggie

Remove top of light and cut wires. Cut the arm flush and run a 3/4" drill bit thru the hole. Install the new light and reconnect the wires. Do not remove the bracket under the dash. I used 30-31 lamps because I already had them. Direct bolt on after enlarging the hole.

MUCH BETTER. That's what Shay should have done.

DavidR,

What you provided is EXACTLY (and I emphasize it BOLDLY) what I'm looking for....A "SIMPLE" way of doing a difficult project!!!

By removing the old Shay COWL LAMPS and ARMS as you suggest, there is no need to remove the BRACKETS under the dash....GREAT!!!!

My intention, when I submitted my original message yesterday, is to NOT remove the epoxied-in BRACKETS as I want RIGIDITY and with the original under-dash brackets held in by FIBERGLASS, it is really fixed/held in place.

My only QUESTION is HOW did you cut the ARMS flush with the cowl??? What "machinery" or "tool" did you use??? Hacksaw etc???? Pipe cutter????

As far as your suggestions of removing the LAMPS and cutting the WIRES, that was what I was going to do to start the "project"

Take care,

Reggie

Reggie,
I recently replaced my Mickey Mouse lights with 28-29 cowl lamps. Here is how I did it: I first took the light off of the arm and wires out. I then took a hack saw blade out of the saw and wearing a pair of leather gloves, cut the arm from the bracket, inside the car. This was not easy but I figured it was easier than replacing the bracket. I tried to make the cut as close to the bracket as I could. I then had to take a 1/2 inch bit and make the hole in the bracket just a tiny bit larger. The new cowl lamp fit through the existing hole in the cowl and bolted up to the bracket. The only problem was, the lamp was facing the radiator cap! After getting over my initial feeling that nothing ever goes right for me, I had to figure how to get the lights to face straight ahead. After a couple of days of serious thinking, I got a piece of 1/2 inch plastic pipe and cut, what I guess I would call two shims, one for either side of the bracket. I figured as best I could the right angle, which was (the best I remember) about 1/2 inch on one side to almost nothing on the other. With these in place on either side of the bracket the lamps more or less pointed straight ahead. The last problem was the ground wire. I had to use a large 1/2 washer on the inside to fit against the plastic shim, so I soldiered a tab on it plug the ground into. It all looks and works great. Oops. I had to get a digital flasher unit to make it work. I guess the new bulb didn't draw enough juice to make the old one work. The two filament bulb in the new lamps is one of a kind. It has two filaments in a small round bulb. I learned by experience that the larger two filament bulbs won't fit. Hope this rambling helps some.

Ray - FL

Thanks Ray,

As this time, the "project" is started and I am at the point that the ARMS and COWL LAMPS are removed.

I used the HACKSAW blade method BUT, I've cut the arms off OUTSIDE the cowl/body...I took precautions and taped all around the area to make sure the blade wouldn't touch the cowl/body....This worked out alright and it took approximately only 5 minutes to cut through each ARM....I then took a FILE and smoothed the exposed edges and aligned them with the original Shay RUBBER GROMMET...If need be, I do have NEW grommets available if needed.

I now have too go to Home Depot and get a couple LARGE drill bits...1/2 inch and 3/4 inch and then drill through the holes to open up where there is FIBERGLASS.

I did the "hack-sawing" from the OUTSIDE to see if it was easier than doing from under the dash which, as you mention, there isn't much room to work.

As I lack many "power" tools such as a DREMEL to grind off some of the work/cutting areas, I am using all hand tools except for the forthcoming drilling through the brackets to open up.

Sooooo being at the point I'm at, the only PROBLEM with my method of removing the arms OUTSIDE the cowl, is that the new COWL LAMP hollow-center threaded MOUNT BOLTS is the length....At present, there are only 3 threads fitting into the new arms....Not enough for me not to worry.

Lastly, as this is sunny and hot Florida and the humidity is way high and the temperature in the open garage is 95 degrees in the shade, I look like a WET-MOP.

Stayed tuned for further adventures from the man that does everything the HARD WAY and then learns to do it right the second time, the EASY WAY!!!

Lastly, this is all an experiment to see the various ways of doing the same project so those that follow, will have learned from my mistakes, if any!!!

Reggie

Hi Ray,

A question about the wiring you have to your 1928/1929 style replacement COWL LAMPS.

The wiring-to the Shay Lollipops has three(3) wires....BROWN, BLACK, WHITE.

The new lamps, with signal lights, come with only 2...An ORANGE and a YELLOW.

As one owner mentioned to me, the old BLACK wires is a GROUND.

What color did you hook up to the ORANGE and YELLOW replacement lamps wires??? I guess it will only take me a few minutes to figure out if I don't hear from you but wanted it archived here for others.

The replacements are in place and I now have to do further work due the angle of the replacements....As you mention, they do point to slightly toward the COWL and not straight to the FRONT.

I had no luck whatsoever finding a 3/4 inch drill bit that would fit my 1/4 inch drill....Both our Lowe's and Home Depot only carry 3/4 inch drill bits that fit larger chucks...I don't have a heavy-duty drill.

Sooooo.......I'll more than probably remove the Model A replacement lamps and go with either a shim or some other fix....My main problem was only cutting the Shay lamp arms on the OUTSIDE and now see the benefit of hacksawing under the dash which looks like tomorrows project.

Appreciate the assistance of you guys so I can "experiment" to find the easiest way to install and then be able to post the "operation" here for anyone else interested.

Reggie

they make a drill called a step drill, starts at maybe a 1/4 and step up tp 3/4.


Mike

Reggie,
My Shay is at home and I am at work -- 40 miles away. I will check on the wires tonight and let you know tomorrow (if I remember it).
Just wondering, why do you need a 3/4 inch bit??


Ray - FL

Ray,

I wanted a 3/4 inch drill bit to use for other projects and to have if just-in-case I needed to drill open through the under-dash bracket.

I had read one response about how an owner used a 1/2 inch bit (the diameter of the lamp bolt) and another a 3/4 inch (the diameter of the lamp arm).

Now that I've taken the time to really analyze the situation, I DON'T need a 3/4 inch drill bit...

I'm going to disassemble the newly installed replacement COWL LAMPS again today and do as one of you guys suggested and that's to HACKSAW the COWL LAMP ARM under the dash.

This is important in order to get alignment for the arms...I MUST hacksaw in a direct FRONT to REAR motion...That way, when I reassemble, the arms will be aligned correctly and the LAMPS will be pointed FORWARD, not on an angle as they are this moment.

Once this is done, I'll reassemble to see that the COWL LAMPS face forward correctly and then wire the wires.

Appreciate all the responses from both NEWTIMERS and those that have paved the path for us years ago!!! The fORUM ARCHIVE holds a wealth of information and data.

I wish I had been around for Ron Handy 17 years ago, but I was living in Stockholm, Sweden ever so far away...At that time, my only car interests were Volvo's and Saab's.

Reggie

Where were you guys 17 years ago when I replaced my first cowl lights?

NY - RON

What year lamps did you use?

I have 30-31 lamps on my truck and I do not think they will fit.

They need a flat end for the Shay, I think?




NY-Bob

Hi Bob,

I am using 1928/1929 replacement COWL LAMPS....Manufactured by Vintique and sold by vendors like Snyder's and Mac's under P/N A-13302-ARTS which, though not 100% authentic because they are 12 volt and contain TURN SIGNALS, they are the right parts for the job.

The base for the 1930/1931 is different but as DAVIDR wrote and sent in a photo, he got a set to fit....This shows that Shay owners can get just about any year Ford Model A part to fit with some blood, sweat and tears!! Or is it swearing???

The biggest problems in changing the lamps are the BRACKETS that are epoxied in under the dash....They're not mounted straight ahead but on an angle...That's the obstacle....They can't be BENT without removing the fiberglass that holds them in..I didn't want to go this way as I wanted the best rigidity.

One contributor removed the fiberglass/epoxy and after removing and bending the brackets, bolted the brackets to the FIREWALL...Others have hacksawed the arms off either outside the cowl or under next to the brackets...Outside EASY, under dash...FRUSTRATING!!

After I removed the Shay COWL LAMPS and ARMS, I mounted the new lamps but I didn't like the angle as they were pointed towards the radiator and not straight ahead...This is what I'm dealing with at the moment.

For your info, I've attached two photos of the new lamps installed BUT not to my liking due the angle I speak of...At this time, I've removed them and am thinking of how to remount straight ahead....As the lamp portion is held in by three screws, there's no way to just rotate the lams themselves.





As previously mentioned, I want to personally go through all of the frustrations so that I can come back and offer the CORRECT and most viable way for others that may want to do the same....So far, I've received a lot of great advice/information here in the FORUM and by e-mail so I feel that there's some interest in the upgrade.

Reggie

If you are trying to make the car look authentic, then you need the 28-29 lights. The only real way to do it, is to remove the brackets from the firewall and then bend them to simulate the mounting angle that the original 28-29 cowl lights fastened to. Then refasten them. If you make a clean cut when removing the old arm, it will make mounting the new lights easier. Takes some doing but worth the effort. Good luck with the project. My .02

Hi Al,

Well, I finished the job....ALMOST...Photo #1.

First..Let me reclarify...I used 1928/1929 COWL LAMPS, P/N A-13302-ARTS, not the 1930/1931 which mount differently...

The differences from real Model A lamps are twofold...12 VOLTS and SIGNAL LIGHTS as well as RUNNING LIGHTS.(Is that still twofold or threefold???)

Today, I removed the new COWL LAMPS and readjusted them (with shims) so that they wouldn't be pointed inward which is one of the basic problems that has probably plagued everyone that's installed the Model A lamps.

My objective was NOT TO REMOVE the fiberglass ed in BRACKETS under the dash that the ARMS are mounted to....Not the easiest thing to work on especially when they are "angled" for the old Shay LOLLIPOPS.

For those that wish to attempt this modification, there are TWO CHOICES in determining whether you want to do it removing or not removing the underdash brackets...Either way will work...Flip a coin....If you do remove the brackets, they can be reinstalled with bolts and nuts or if you're handy with FIBERGLASS, they can be epoxied in like originals...The main benefit or removing the brackets is to bend them to straighten them so they are not askew like Shay did them.

I took one persons advice and used SHIMS in order to straighten the MOUNTING BOLT angle so the bolts would be pointed straight out the side and then I screwed the long bolt into each cowl lamp....You can see the bright shims (made from metal washers) in photo #2.

I installed new black-rubber GROMMETS P/N A-13324-R from Snyder's...If you prefer buying from Mac's, order P/N A13324 which are the same Ford licensed parts.





YES, I see that I need to wrap some electrical tape around the radio wire which was collateral damage...Hey, I never said I was perfect, did I???

As to the reference of being NEARLY done...I didn't have time to do the re-wiring but that should only take 15-20 minutes for a normal person or a day or two for me!! As I had previously alluded to, the new lamps come with 2 wires and the old Shay lamps had three.

In finality, I would rate this endeavor on a difficulty scale of one to ten as about a 9.9....This due to my ineptitude and skill level.

Reggie

Reggie,

The 3rd wire is most likely for the ground.

NY Bob

Thanks all!!

The installation of 1928/1929 Model A COWL LAMPS is FINISHED...Hooray!!!

I wired the wires, so to speak.

Here's the wiring COLOR CODES:

LEFT LAMP:

Turn Signal - Shay YELLOW to new RED/ORANGE
Running Light - Shay BROWN to new YELLOW
Ground - Shay BLACK - Attached to BRACKET - No ground wire with new lamps.

RIGHT LAMP:

Turn Signal - Shay BLUE/WHITE -to new RED/ORANGE
Running Light - Shay BROWN to new YELLOW
Ground - Shay BLACK - Attached to BRACKET - No ground wire with new lamps.

There, that's it...Not exactly the easiest modification I've performed, but surely one of the most satisfying...Those with more mechanical ability would find it easier than I.

Finally, if anyone wants to ask for assistance in doing what I just did, just ask as I just added myself to the growing list of owners that HATED the looks of the Shay signal lamps...There were others that did the change out of necessity due problems such as pitting of the housings or damage....I firmly believe that the original Shay lights are one of the details that look non-Model A and draw negative attention...This opinion mine!!!

Reggie

Reggie,
The cowl lamps look great. I guess you don't need me to tell you which wires go where. The cowl lamp replacement was one of the most satisfying things I did to my Shay. I didn't like the Mickey Mouse lights from the fist time I saw them. Good Job!!

Ray - FL

Me too Reggie, you did a great job and I learned a lot. THANKS, steve

Thanks guys.

It was a labor of LOVE or was it DETERMINATION?? Anyway, it involved LABOR, a few bucks, and plenty of sweat!!

One minor note..Received an e-mail asking what I did with the BLACK GROUND WIRE....Two words...ALLIGATOR CLIP...You MUST attach a GROUND wire to each of the metal brackets..I just used a couple of alligator clips, one per side...I wanted to drill one hole each in the brackets but there was no room for a drill.

Reggie