Romans 5 (MSG)
20All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn't, and doesn't, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it's sin versus grace, grace wins hands down.
I have been thinking about this for a while, lets see if I can be coherent and avoid a ramble.
Our government seems intent on passing laws to protect its citizens. I have been more and more convinced that that is hurting Christianity. What do I mean by that?
1) The more laws the government passes, the less likely people are to look to God. It is fairly easy not to hit "bottom", whatever that means to you, and not look to God for salvation.
2) The government has replaced the churches reason to be in this world with it's own programs. The church has historically been the "social services" organization that the government is now doing. Again, as this continues, people are less likely to look to the church and God for salvation.
In addition, God's people have fallen into this trap with fairly narrow definitions of what is right and wrong. Take nudity for example. Most of us would not be on this board if we were not Christians and were not convinced that nudity is OK with God. As we have seen in several posts on this board, most Christians do not share that opinion.
I have often wondered if legalism within the church is todays version of Gnostic thought.
I won't get started on that right now, however.
Please feel free to flame, discuss, agree, whatever. These are just some thoughts that have been brewing for a while... As the Bible says...
Prov 27:17
You use steel to sharpen steel,
and one friend sharpens another.
I would agree with you that government has taken the place that the church should hold in regard to the welfare of the people. We, of course, gladly gave that up when we decided that the “church” was to be an institution. Unfortunately, it has been an institution nearly as long as there has been a church. Back in the days of the bible, Jesus argued against the Jews, not as a race or a faith, but as an institution that was more concerned with its own power structure than it was being what God called them to do (Read Isaiah 1). We get our idea of church from a Greek word that means, “the called out ones.” It is the idea of a committee or a town council. People concerned with doing what they are supposed to, not an institution that is a power and a principality. By being an institution, we delegated our real work to someone else so that we could concentrate on building power.
Your idea of legalism and Gnosticism being similar has some validity. They are both methods of giving power to a select few and making sure everyone else toes the mark. By making ever increasing rules for right and wrong, those without power are always caught off balance. Nudity can be a great equalizer. When two or more people are naked, there is a much greater difficulty in determining who is in power and who is not. It does not meant that it is fool proof. One can be naked and still carry a bigger club. Clothing had always help only two purposes. One is protection from the elements and the other is a symbol of status. Take that symbol away and things level, to a degree. Perhaps if the “church” got back to being the called out ones instead of a power structure and people were naked, society would be better off. This might be completely false, but it would be interesting to try.
You have made some good points here that I agree with.
Let me add a couple of thoughts:
1. If you look back in the Old Testament, the Isralites became very profecient at adding laws. By the time of Jesus,their laws were so many they couldn't possibly keep them all,and Jesus pointed that out to them.In fact Jesus got into serious trouble with the Jews because He did not keep all the laws.
2. The disciples who were mentored by Jesus spent a lot of time trying to establish which of them was more powerful.
What is my conclusion? Laws DO NOT make people good!
People do not please God by keeping laws. God is most concerned with our Relationship with Him. God is more concerned about out BEING than our doing. The result of being in right relationship with God is that He makes us good. The next result is that we will then be in right relationship with others. When we are in right relationship with others,we will not be in a power grab attitude but will seek the best for others. States cannot legislate what goes on in side us, but God can transform us. We don't deserve what He does for us-but that is his Grace and I think it is amazing!
Willbtan
Naked and not ashamed
Bornude, I am glad really that here we aren't going to "Flame" anyone. I also agree with nakedspirit that the church surrendered their job to a government who simply picked up the ball. The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of an institution. The next question would be why the people would allow the church to become a legalistic power. Can you see a line of people standing before God someday all pointing to the church and saying "but they said it was okay"! There is an imagined safety in having an "authority" to blame for all our failures. The only important part of this whole line is what to do about it. Bearone
Christians have fallen to a life of fear. There are Christians who are still superstitious, in that I mean, they are still afraid of "spooks" or black cats, or ladders, or maybe a person who calls themselves "witches" or "warlocks".
They still fear the demons, (I am not immplying playing around with them either....by all means, avoid them!) and forget that they have protection from all the above, real or immagined, by Jesus Christ.
I know we should not sin, but I think the bible is rather clear on what sin is. In reality, sin, by the bibles definition, is the transgression of Gods law. Now the law of Moses is not what they are talking about. We are talking about what Jesus did. Jesus said on the night of the Last Supper "I give you a new law, that you love one another" and later he said, "They (the world) will know you are my disciples because you have love one for another".
Love tells me that you will not hurt anyone, steal from anyone, lust after anyone, so why should there be a law against something that you don't do? If you love, you don't sin. Love has no fear. You would not live by fear, but by love.
Love says that we would take care of each other, share with each other, not lord it over each other, pick each other up, pray for each other. One man used to say that love is an unselfish, outgoing concern for the welfare of others.
Making laws is only for the self. "I want a law against something I don't like that other person doing." Instead of going to that person as a brother or sister in Christ, we pick up the phone and call the police....mans authority. (If there is a gun fight out there, by all means, call the police! Use some commone sense)
We gave up our God given authority to "what is bound on earth is bound in heaven and what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven" which was given to Peter (as the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven).
Now the churches are spending time in the White House protesting too much instead of taking on the job we were given to do.
We need more examples of love and concern, picking the ball back up and getting back in the game. We are holding the keys, open the doors of the kingdom of heaven and keep them open for all peoples and nations.
We should be praying our neighbors to Christ. I know I have been slack in that area as well, but I keep that in mind. Christians in America has gone soft and think that all we have to do is "Pay and Pray" and some even leave out the pray. They think that paying the pastor means that we are paying a person to do all the work of the Christian. It's as if we are absolved from our duty to serve. God doesn't want our money, he wants us!
Thanks to God's grace, He has forgiven us, but also reopened the doors...even gave us the keys...and made it possible for us to not only enter, but to invite the whole world!
Naturism is a freedom we found in Christ, but naturism itself is not the gospel. Jesus Christ is the gospel message! His grace, his death, resurrection and life which was extended to us.
Our local church name is "Christian Reconciliation Fellowship" because we feel it is our call to help people become reconciled with each other and to Christ.
We should no longer be afraid. God called us to love, not fear. We do not need a law against anything except what is outlined in the bible.
Naturism is originally from the beginning (Adam and Eve). God never made it a law that we must wear clothing at all times, even in the old testament. We corrupted ourselves and made ourselves unworthy to be before God until Jesus Christ came along. Now how can we go back to our old nature after tasting the grace which has been freely given to us?
>> The next question would be why the people would allow the church to become a legalistic power. Can you see a line of people standing before God someday all pointing to the church and saying "but they said it was okay"! There is an imagined safety in having an "authority" to blame for all our failures. The only important part of this whole line is what to do about it
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In my experience with legalism, it is more concerned with the don'ts than the do's.
From what I have seen, there are at least two types of people where legalism is concerned.
The first tends to be those who are either unwilling or unable to make up their own decisions. They feel most secure when someone else tell them the rules they are to follow. Somtimes, I think this type of person feels at risk within a group when not being in total agreement. One experience I had with legalistic people, it wasn't the leadership but the people themselves who were participating.
The second is the people who are willing to take the risk, interpret the scriptures and be corrected. I would equate this type of person as the Bereans that is talked about in Revelation.
