I had a strange encounter a few days ago and I'm not sure how to deal with it. Maybe you can help? I have a friend upstairs in my apartment building who has been a friend since college (over 10 years.) She popped in for just a few minutes to drop something off for me and acted kind of funny. She looked in the kitchen several times and seemed really distracted by it. Thinking that the mess on the table (I was making homemade cookies) was distracting her, I told her not to mind the mess. During the conversation she brought up that a neighbor of hers seems to forget to get dressed when taking out the trash sometimes. I commented that I've been pretty close to forgetting my clothes on several occassions and now keep a pareo by the door as a reminder. She asked if that happened to me often and I said, "Yeah. More often than you'd think." Obviously, this friend does not know I'm a nudist.
The next day I was going into the fridge when I realized what she was probably looking at: the many AANR magnets on the fridge. Between the magnets, which is what I'm pretty sure she was looking at, and the conversation, she probably realizes that I have some nudist tendency.
This friend, however, is very, very, very, VERY conservative in her beliefs. We're talking she's not ok with card games, marrying outside of her church (not faith or denomination, mind you, but her CHURCH itself), dancing, being alone with a man, etc. So I'm pretty sure she's not going to be ok with this.
So what do I do? Do I address it head-on? Wait until she brings it up? I know that nudism is in no way anti-Biblical. Truth be told, it's been very, very good for my faith. But I'm quite sure this friend will think it a sin.
We've an Indian friend from when we lived near LSU. She's visited us once here. On the phone, I mentioned to her that I was a nudist like that children's writer (name escapes me right now). She replied that seems an oxymoron.
She was raised Catholic in Indian and I guess was taught there that nudity is wrong.
Don't think she's figured out what to do with what I told her yet.
Oh, I forget to put something on every morning going out for the paper (and this mornig the garbage, too) and just after lunch for the mail. Neighbors know and don't mind. Got caught by the one returing back home when getting the mail. I turned my back rather than wave to her. Should I have waved?
Your friend is living in a difficult and most likely judgmental attitude toward the world. You're probably right that she's not going to be OK about this. You may be able to help her become OK, but I wouldn't count on it.
If you haven't already done so, read some of the articles on Boyd's website. You'll need to have a few Scripture references for there to be any hope that she will be open to what you have to say. Keep in mind that there are lots of people who claim to live by the Bible who are actually closed to most of what the Bible says; they have identified with a few verses, and—no matter what they say—the rest of the Bible is not authoritative for them.
It's most important that you refuse to argue with her. Stay in the spirit of testimony. Your personal story is very powerful (every person has a powerful and unique story), so share with her what God has done in your life through naturism. That doesn't mean that she would have the same experience; but your experience of healing through naturism is not something that another is entitled to put aside. If the Bible is being discussed, identify one of the relevant passages and ask her how she understands it. Listen until she is done. Then ask, "Have you thought about this.....? Then share your naturism understanding of the passage in the form of a testimony, i.e., "This is what it means for me."
But never be drawn into arguments. They go nowhere. If it starts to feel like an argument, immediately smile and say, "You're important to me. Our friendship is important to me. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree."
One of the problems is that she does read the Bible, but it seems that what her church tells her is more authoritative in her mind. It's almost like a cult in that this church dictates everything about what people should be like and it's not all Biblical. So using the Bible may have no effect on her whatsoever. I'd have to have someone from her church say it's ok, which isn't likely to happen since I don't really know people in her church very well. I will try to use scripture and tell my story, though. That's a really good idea. Whether or not she will be able to 'hear' it is up to God.
If you know the name of the church, I would research it on the internet. A good friend tried to get me into this one Church and I soon learned it was a Cult. We have to becare on here not to judge someone church. The internet can help you there and a Bible book store has books on Cults. If she is, just pray for her.
I must agree here. I had a renter that was very legalistic. Remember HAD! She had her views and knew what was right and how satan had a hold over us women. One thing I learn grewing up, never ever argue God's words. Legalism will turn God's words to protect themselves and make themselves more rightous. I would be greatful its a neighbor/friend that doesn't live with in your place.
I personal would wait for her to ask. She seems to be good at making up the story of another neighbor going out nude. See how rightous she behaves and what games she plays. Say Hello to her alot. Maybe you could invite her over for nude Tea Party.
You've goten some solid advice from Luvnaturism and Ralph. Use it wisely.
I'm reading from your post, that to your friend, you may be the only close confidant that she has. If you have an opportunity one afternoon, ask her to join you for a 'coke' [carbonated varity], iced tea, or .... your choice, and a piece of cake, ice cream, or your choice.
Once she knows for certain that you are nonjudgemental, you will find that she may open up to you. Let her lead the conversations. She will tell you what is 'on her heart'. She may 'ramble' all over the place. Just walk with her.
You have a very unique opportunity. There are many people here who will be praying for you.
You're right- she does tell me everything, whether I want to know it or not. I think I'm one of her few friends, basically because she talks a blue streak. But she has a good heart and I think she honestly does want to please God. She just doesn't really know what that means. I'll be sure to invite her out and see what happens. If she knows and wants to talk about it, she'll be sure to bring it up. Keep those prayers coming!
Whilst this is not directly related to the problem in hand, I have found great comfort from the following, which was the theme running through a series of Lenten talks given by Franciscan friars- “God loves me as I am, not as I would like to be or as others would like me to be-but just as I am.”
Thanks for sharing that story. Sometimes we have to be reminded that there are people who are very conservative to the point of living by fear rather than by faith.
I do have a question, does all of her church members feel the same way? Sometimes you may find that the church one goes to is not as conservative or as concerned about the same things as one or two extremists. There are some (thankfully few) that has a tendency to take what the pastor says (a suggestion or "thinking out loud" in their sermon) and take is as "gospel truth" from the LORD Himself!
A Pastor may not play cards, but it's because they would rather play chess. But an extremist would translate that as "cards are sin". Where in the bible does playing cards is a sin? They take more chances on the road in a car than any card game will take, even if they do gamble a little change! (To extremists: I am not advocating gambling).
The church I go to has once been considered as a cult, even though we believed in Jesus Christ. The problem: we spent too much time believing the church than the bible...thinking we were believing the bible. Actually, our head pastor (the late Herbert W. Armstrong) has always said, "Don't believe me, believe the bible!" Good news: We are now long out of the "Cult" status and have joined the Evangelical ranks.
One person wrote to me and said "the Lord would not accept the wine (actually, vinegar or very bad wine) on the cross (the "I thirst" scene) and then said that if it was good enough for the Lord to not drink wine, then I shouldn't either, so drinking wine is a sin. Sorry dude, that wasn't what it was about! He forgot the wine that was served during the Lords' Supper. But an extremist will not reason.
By the way, (I need to look it up) but somewhere in the Old Testament, God challenged someone (or nation) "Come, let us reason together". Even God is willing to sit down with you and "reason" this out. (Don't get "reason this out" confused with "compromise". God will not compromise on His law.)
Articles: Adam and Eve, God Said/Satan Said, Pray Your Neighbors to Christ, The New Testament, The Book of Romans, Ecologically Sound, Naked Definition, etc.
Keep us posted, and by the way, find out who that neighbor is (the one who "forgets" to dress) and see if they can join us in the forum! You may have a "like minded" friend soon right in your own area, (hard to find).
Boyd wrote...
>>> One person wrote to me and said "the Lord would not accept the wine (actually, vinegar or very bad wine) on the cross (the "I thirst" scene) and then said that if it was good enough for the Lord to not drink wine, then I shouldn't either, so drinking wine is a sin. Sorry dude, that wasn't what it was about! He forgot the wine that was served during the Lords' Supper. But an extremist will not reason <<<
It amazes me when people make a "major" deal out of one verse, or even pull verses out of context.
This is a great example. Another example of Christ's attitude toward wine is the wedding at Cana. Here, not only was it a party, Jesus turned the water into the best wine of the day! (John 2:1-12)
I think it was in the FigLeafForum, one guy was arguing aginst nudism by using David and Bathesheba as the example, essentially stating that it was her nudity that caused the events that then transpired.
Our campus minister gave a sermon one Sunday on how we tend to be more like the pharisees: more concerned with how details than with why we do it.
One thing he mentioned was around a hundred years ago (before Welsh's invented grape pasteurization), people quibbled over whether to allow grape juice in the communion. Now, it's the other way around.
Folks just don't read the whole thing. They pick and choose what they want or misinterpret parts, often because they haven't read the whole.
In The Gospel of John movie that I watched last night, they quoted Jesus as accepting the wine-soaked spong on a hyssop branch and showed his drinking from it just before he died. In this movie, they were trying to be true to exactly what John said.
Our church uses both wine and grapejuice at the communion. We have a communion once a month, and the choice of wine or grapejuice is available. Our children are allowed to take the communion as well, (some churches don't allow that) so grapejuice is available for them. (Some adults, (few) take the juice).
As for Jesus Christ taking or not taking the sponge, it seems that they were putting the sponge to his lips, and I'm sure after going through what he went through, the lips burned from the liquid, and it tasted horrible! So if he did take some, it would seem that it was a trial in itself!
Here is an interesting thought: My pastor suggested that the thirst scene was actually Jesus saying "I thirst...for you to come to me" He is thirsting for our salvation!!!
It's common in Protestant military communion services for both wine and grape juice to be present in the little cups on the same plant. Each person takes the one that he wants. Some traditions that only use wine make it easy (non-embarrassing) for anyone who doesn't want the wine to take only the bread.
I'm always intrigued at the traditions—and there are many—that insist that baptism should be by immersion because that was the way Jesus was baptiized, but who also allow only grape juice at communion.
As for Jesus refusing wine on the cross, my understanding of that is that sour wine was offered on a sponge as a bit of help with the thirst and as a small bit of relief from the pain. He refused to allow his pain to be diminished, but instead drank the whole cup of suffering. It doesn't have any application to whether we can or cannot drink wine, unless you personally are being crucified for the world's sins.
The Bible has many verses about wine and other forms of alcohol. Collectively they make two points: such beverages are a gift of God to be enjoyed, and drinking to excess is an abomination to God and to God's people.
It's interesting that virtually all Jews enjoy alcohol in their ordinary lives, but alcoholism is almost unknown among Jews.
I don't think Jews have an age limit, but I know that when a boy becomes a man, which is traditionally at the age of 13, it is celebrated by the Bar Mitzvah (spelling?) (Bar meaning Son in Hebrew).
Wine would be enjoyed by the young "man" as well as adults, but in correct application. Children are used to tasting wine and seeing it in normal everyday situations, so it is not a mystry to them, nor do they find it something they "can't wait to grow up so I can get drunk like my parents".
Naturism is the same philosophy. We bring up our children in the "nudity is normal" lifestyle and they grow up wondering what the big deal is about seeing a nude person.
Maybe when my children become 13, we'll have a special nude birthday party celebrating their "adulthood" while still recognizing our culture in America. Many parents do not respect their children at 13, they are afraid of the "terrible teens" and they let their children know it. As a result, children behave exactly as their parents expect them to. And if the parents expect their children to behave in a "disruptive manner", then the teens will gladly oblige, only they are not really happy. They get moody, disruptive and....you know the rest.
What I like seeing here is the respect the teens on this board is getting from their parents, as well as the support. Sometimes we find teens getting on board here looking for that support because they are afraid their textile parents are not supportive. After encouragement, they do seek out their parents only to find that not only are they supportive, but they in turn come to us and support this forum as well. So we all can learn, even from our encouraging, support seeking, teenagers.
And if they are brought up using alcohol in the same manner, then they too can drink without becoming alcoholics. But after they are adults, then they are on their own when it comes to making the final dicision. Smoking, drugs, alcohol, sex, clothing, spiritul beliefs, community support, etc. all resides in the initial support and closeness of the family.
There are still things I'm not completely sure about when it comes to some things, such as masturbation. Should I allow my kids? I doubt seriously that stopping them when I am catching them and trying to stop them when I am not there to stop them will help. Urges are urges are urges. Somehow, that urge is built in physically and not necessarilly stimulated from outside sources. Like being hungry, or needing to use the toilet. But teaching them proper time and places, maybe that would be more to the point. But I am still not sure today.
But alcohol, naturism, as such is trainable and has it's place. It's an American law that says "children" under 18 or 21 (state by state) cannot use alcohol, but the very next day, on their birthday, they can use alcohol as much as they want. That does not make sense.
I think "religion" (Christianity in particular) has caused a lot of damage in this area. Result, we have alcoholism, sexual problems, psychological problems, fear of the body, and fear of everything.
By the way, as you already know, baptism is immersion, like burial, but if a person cannot be emersed, or in an area where a drought caused a dangerous shortage of water (African or Middle Eastern style, not American style) then baptism by sprinkling would be accepted. Even the thief on the cross was not baptised, but was crucified with the Lord. But so was the other one crucified with the Lord, so it didn't make any difference. Jesus accepted the one who accepted Jesus.
I am convinced it is not about the age of being "taught" to drink but about moderation. The largest alcohol problem I keep hearing about on college campuses is binge drinking. The problem seems to be that our culture teaches or tolerates this. Look at our fast food industry... It used to be a burger and fries was considered enough, now a burger won't due, you need a "Whopper" or "Big Mac", and by the way, Supersize that.
Europe is not immune from alcoholics but doesn't tolerate them behind the wheels of cars.
