Ok, variants of this question have been asked time and again, but I think I have a legitimate question so here it is. I am a Christian single guy in my twenties. I have a history of addiction to ography. I have been trying to overcome my addiction to bad by enjoying good . I am not sure this is a good strategy. What are your thoughts? I have been to a clothing optional beach a few times this summer. My curiosity in ness has been sufficiently addressed, but I still have issues. I still on occassion at the CO beach (and other places). Do other people have this issue? I would appreciate if you could post your thoughts.
I have a second question mostly directed to mature women, but men with insight can answer this also. If I get into a relationship with a woman, when is a good time to talk about my struggles with ? I know I shouldn't raise it up on the first date, and I don't want wait till we get married because I want to be honest and open to someone who I marry. I know a good percentage of men have this struggle, so I know the Christian community should address this issue. What are your thoughts on that one?
I know these are some hard issues and not many of you would want to think about this. But if you have some insights, pleae do share. Thanks.
You started off by pointing out that variations of these questions/comments have already asked.
[1] ' Do other people have this issue? I would appreciate if you could post your thoughts.'
[2] 'I have a second question mostly directed to mature women, but men with insight can answer this also.'
[3] 'What are your thoughts on that one?'
[4] 'I know a good percentage of men have this struggle, so I know the Christian community should address this issue.'
[5] 'I know these are some hard issues and not many of you would want to think about this. But if you have some insights, pleae do share.'
The questions/comments that you have posted are all too similar to a round that we have just gone through. Any discussion of pornography is inappropriate to this Forum. That is guaranteed to cost Boyd the rest of those special people who had been coming here and posting.
There are bound to be Christian BB's which are much more suited to your comnments. I suggest that you take these comments to one or more of those BB's.
First up, whilst I agree that this forum is not about pornography - let's get real about this issue. All too often in our modern Western cultures the people who produce pornography have capitalised on naturism and the insecurities that people have with the lifestyle.
I am also a recovered pornography addict, and getting involved with social naturism again (for me) was one of the factors that helped me break the addiction to it.
There are a quite a number of nudists who are unfortunately hooked on porn, and it is a hard habit to break.
You should try the site XXXCHURCH.com which is an interesting site that delves into spreading God's word into the 'adult' entertainment industry. They have received a lot of vitriol from both Christians and people in the porn industry oiver their somewhat juvenile sense of humour.
But most of all, seek the help of a Christian priest or pastor to help you kick the habit or see if there are any accountability groups that you might like to try.
THanks for your response and for pointing me to some previous discussion on the issue. I poured out my heart to a Christian group and I am totally OK with being told that it is inappropriate. However, the nature of your reponse offends me. Honestly, I feel a lot of judgment and very little love. In my defense for my first question, I want to point out that no other group will try to help me understand if the clothing optional lifestyle is right for me. That is why I raised it here. Now that I realise that it is inappropriate in this context (understandably), I will refrain from continuing this conversation unless others have more to say in this regard.
Hey Jerry,
There's another question you've brought up about being involved in Naturism while you're struggling against lust. Lust comes from the intent of the heart. Can you look at a woman just walking around naked and not envision her in various lewd sex acts? Or, can you see them in a pure light with only godly affection and compassion for them. I'm not talking about mere attraction. I see a guy clothed or unclothed and think he's cute, I know I'm not lusting after him. He's just attractive. But, if I want him to turn me on in some way and/or I start having sex fantasies about him, then it's lust.
I got a letter concerning this post and I am looking closely at it.
First of all, I dont' see any malicious reasoning behind the post. The recent bouts we had were from someone who insisted that even if he is wrong, he still claimed right and took no counceling.
The young man here has a problem that is strong on many men, and unfortunately, Christian men has a big battle on this. This subject comes up very often in the Promise Keepers speaking list.
It is true, naturism has been linked to pornography and many porn sites use naturism as one of their keywords to attract unsuspecting naturists. And they also abuse the word as if "naturism" and "exhibitionism" is the same word. It causes a lot of problems and we naturists, especially Christian Naturists are battling all the time.
I am going to give this one the reason to stay. He needs healing, and Jesus Christ has the power to heal all sins. Jesus may not remove the temptation, but he won't put temptation in front of us. He says to "flee temptation". We have work to do, but by the power of the holy spirit and in Christs' name.
What this man needs is our prayers and support.
No, this forum isn't about porn or sex addiction, but being a Christian Naturist has put him under a man made umbrella of cyber porn or public sex. And that is NOT a true connection.
By being a naturist, he is putting himself in a position to be helped. By coming here, he is admiting his struggle, admiting that he needs help, and I feel we can help by being there for him.
What we CAN do is set up a few links for him that would be helpful. Give lots of encouragement! And them invite him to continue the subject of Christianity and Naturism here and give us updates on his success...not struggle....but success! Because he admitted it, Jesus is faithful, then we must expect success!!
Another thing I want to point out, and it is not as obvious, (I know that because I just figured it out as I was writing this) that the reason he came here to this forum is because this is not a sex forum! It is Christian and Naturism, not sexual!!! I believe he is looking for such a site and forum. No tempations here! Thank God Almighty, the Son and the Holy Spirit for that!! This is a Safe Place.
If everyone is in agreement with that, then I believe we will not only have dedicated Christian, but a dedicated member and supporter of this forum. Keep in mind, Mary Magdelene had sexual issues, and Jesus' grace in her life kept her loyal to the end.
I appreciate all of you taking the time to read and respond. I feel loved. ALso, I am glad that this issue was faced head on. I will post any step in the positive direction. A little while ago, I started a course at http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/home/ . I gave it up after I fell twice. As a step in the right direction, I am going to start it again.
It will be great if we set up some links, and maybe even write about how the CO experience can aid in the healing from this addiction. The course that I mentioned earlier is a good resource and should be in our links (if it comes to fruition), but I am pretty sure that the people who run it wouldn't appreciate the CO lifestyle. I am not going to talk about it unless they raise it up.
I was worried that you decided we were not caring. I am not sure just how far we can go here to help you, but you can always get encouragement here.
You wrote "I gave it up after I fell twice. As a step in the right direction, I am going to start it again." about the course you were taking. I suppose you meant that you fell back to your old ways.
Well, you may "fall" a dozen more times. But Jesus isn't about falling. Jesus is about lifting up. He cannot help those who will not accept his help. He is merciful and he already knows your frailty. He already knows and accepts you. He isn't looking at the sin. He is seeing a son of God being developed. He is seeing success, not failure. Jesus said that he will not lose anyone. So you do NOT give up!
Now, whether that course will help you or not is to be seen, but I have a feeling that if you WANT to be helped, then it's not the course, but Jesus working through whatever means he wants to work through. If it's this forum and the course and your church, then that is what He will use.
Just don't give up.
Draw close to him and he will draw close to you. Resist Satan and Satan will flee from you.
Don't count the "falls". If you feel yourself being pulled, cry out to the Father, the Son and the holy spirit.
Here's some insight, (and I don't mean to be harsh,just being straight forward on this).When looking at porn, you can excuse it has an addiction or face it as sin. I don't buy the addiction excuse myself. Is it pure thinking your subjecting yourself to? Are you alone or is the Holy Spirit dwelling in you at all times? Would you want Jesus to witness the things you're allowing your eyes to see? You want a cure? Repent. Daily. Before you got to bed, repent. As long as it's called Today, repent. Don't worry about tomorrow. Just take care your relationship with God today.
To live in Christ means to live in grace, love and repentance. I had to daily repent of drinking before I finally stopped drinking altogether and the only way I could stop was to realize it was sin. God gave me grace but it was still sin. So, I'd repent. Before even having that first drink, the temptation is still there, I repent. God doesn't give you more than you can bear. You've got to force yourself to look for the way out He's providing. The solutions are there. If you get porn in the mail,cancel your subscription. Memorize Scripture verses that describe what purity and what real love is, like 1 Corinthians 13, while also memorizing verses that clearly describe what lust is.
As for dating women, you've got lust in your heart and that's adultry. That means you can't be faithful to any woman until you repent of it. Sorry, I'm sure someone with a more politically correct doctrine will shake his/her head at my advice, but I call it like it is.
Jesus Christ loves you as he loves everyone involved in pornography. How will you express that love to others?
Thanks for your response. I do admit that it prn is sin - a sinful addiction. Actually, I had a lot easier time accepting the sinful side rather than the addictive side. Anyway, I am doing all that you mentioned - confession, scripture reading etc. With regard to dating however, I am not sure I buy your "don't date" advice. Thanks for your loving and straightforward response.
I think a lot of men tend to be this way at your age.
August 27 2004, 8:03 AM
I suspect that a lot of men have urges that are hard to control at your age. It's the age when a lot of us got "woodies" just sitting in church. We like to see naked women. Naked women give us erections. It must be very difficult with pictures so readily available now on the internet. You don't even have to go out and find magazines to buy, etc.
If you've gone to CO beaches and if they are reasonably easy for you to get to, I'd go. Try to take a friend, male or female. Talk to people there. Play games, like volleyball or toss the frisbee. Try to get comfortable with just being around and seeing naked people doing every day things.
Pray about it. At some point, you'll learn to appreciate women and looking at them with appreciation rather than just lust. It may take a LOOONG while. It took me a long time not to get an erection when just seeing my wife naked. This was probably one thing that maybe kept her from going to any nudist events with me (but mostly because she is just plain uncomfortable in being naked around others and seeing so many others naked).
You'll probably always enjoy seeing naked women. It's almost like seeing a nice car. We never really get over liking to see one. We can all look at nice cars without wanting to kill the guy who has it to have it; can't we? It's the same looking at naked women. We can appreciate them without wanting to possess them.
I don't know whether any of this helps or not. Good luck, and God bless.
Thanks, Carla and Ralph, for not letting this just drop.
I think after what we've just been through, we might all have an urge to not delve into these kinds of discussions, but I don't think that would be our best response.
This question was presented well, and is, I believe, appropriate to this forum. As said, if not us, then who is better to face these things than us? I believe we're called to help wherever and whenever we can, and this board is unusually well-equiped for this topic. We deal with these questions every day.
I can't improve on what Carla has said, and agree with Ralph: We can appreciate the beauty of something, in this case other people, without lusting for them. I believe that the female of the human species is the most beautiful of God's creation, and I can say that without lusting. It's aesthetics (yes, I had to look it up). Men are functional, while women are designed to be beautiful. Don't take that wrongly. It isn't meant to be demeaning or sexist, I just don't believe that the physical beauty of the body is an accident.
Personnaly, I used to look at the wrong type of things, and always came away disappointed. What I discoved was that I was seeking the non-sexual type of nudity, what we advocate here, in a media that dosn't believe that nudity can be non sexual. To the current popular media, nudity is always presented as sexual because sex sells their products. If nudity is presented in wholesome ways, most people would quickly become bored with it.
What's the best way to overcome this addiction? Just what the others have said: prayer. Listen to what God wants you to do. He may tell you to leave naturism alone for a while. Maybe forever. Only He knows what you need at this point. But you can't stay in a place that will only give you opportunity to keep on lusting. Hanging around nudists may make you accustomed enough to nudity that you don't lust after every woman that you see, but that's just a symptom, not the disease. The bigger problem is in the heart.
Just remember that there is a big differance between a trial and a temptation. A trial is something God puts on our plate specifically to strengthen us. A temptation is our own carnal desires wanting to control us. God can use our temptations in a trial, but He won't tempt us. Now this type of thinking may lead you to think that God wants you to hang around nude beaches, to build up your "resistance". That may or may not be. That's where the praying becomes important. Don't try to think for yourself what will be best. That's the quickest way to big trouble. Let Him be your guide.
I guess that's all for now. Keep us updated on how you're doing.
Jerry, I think you're struggling with issues that common to men, including Christian men. Just in case you hadn't noticed: we Christians don't get a free pass on any of the problems that come to humanity, and certainly many Christians struggle with some kind of addiction. In fact I have a private theory that everyone is addicted to something, but of course some addictions are more damaging than others.
If I read it right, your first question has to do with whether it is a wise strategy for someone like you to try to break the addictive hold by going to naturist places. I'm not going to guarantee that it will work for you, but there are lots of testimonies on the web to the effect that exposure to naturism helped others with the same problem. Apparently you've tried it, and it wasn't a miracle cure. So? You might need to go many more times before you begin to notice a difference.
Another of your posts suggests that you're trying again to get help, which suggests that you tried before and had a relapse. Relapses go with the territory when we're trying to overcome any type of addiction. Don't feel guilty because you didn't make it this time. Just realize such things happen, and start over again.
When is a good time to share your issue with someone you're dating? When the relationship has reached the degree of seriousness that you're beginning to think about commitment at least for a long-term relationship. You're right that it's not a topic for the first date. Probably not for several dates. But as the relationship develops and trust increases, it is natural for sharing to move to deep levels. That would be a good time for both of you to introduce the skeletons in the closet. Everybody has some.
You didn't mention this, so I will. Addiction to pornography is typically closely related to sexual need. You're a Christian single guy in your twenties, and the hormones are strong. That discussion doesn't seem appropriate to this forum, but if you'd like some thoughts from a Christian on that topic you can email me by clicking on my underlined name.
I agreed with alot of what you all have written. The struggle against sin is a daily thing. Christ gives us the victory, which is success. A lot of what Boyd has stated I think is right on. But, I'm speaking from a Christian woman's perspective (and it may be mine alone. But if any other woman here agrees with me, I welcome them to speak out):
I would be so freakin' mad at a man, who I was dating and getting to know, if he should wait until feelings were getting serious to tell me that he views porn. That's something that should be confessed long before feelings get serious. It should be confessed before you even ask the woman out. Otherwise, it's manipulative, dishonest, disceiving, and unfair! Women tend to start having feelings often on the first date. You're talking to a guy; he's funny, charming, and witty. He's shown maturity on all levels. You start thinking, "Wow, I could really go for him." Then on the third or fourth date, he hits you with, "By the way, I'm addicted to seeing naked women committing various acts of sex with other men. I hope you're okay with that..."
Or,
"I'm addicted to cocain. I spend quite a bit of money on it, and it's basically ruined my life. I hope you're okay with that..."
Or,
"I gamble and I do so to the point where my entire paychecks are blown. I hope you're okay with that..."
How about instead of subterfuge,
"I'd like to take you out sometime. But, I've got an addiction I'm still struggling with. So, can we talk and start off as just friends?"
I know women hide crap, too. We hope that if a man gets to know our good points first then maybe he'll overlook our flaws. I don't do this. The only time I've ever had to deal with any kind of trouble in a relationship is because they were the ones being dishonest and I so know what it's like to have my heart ripped out due to that deception finally being exposed. I tell you what, it is more than just disappointment. It's finding out that you've been duped into liking or loving someone who didn't care enough to be straight with you because of his own selfish desires to get to know you. I'm speaking from experience, it's wrong, wrong, wrong!
Thanks for your response. However, I am not sure it is as black and white as you state it. I do believe that in some cases, p*rn addicts should not be dating. In my case that was about 3 years ago, when I was just coming to grips with the fact that I was addicted. I talked to several Christian men and even went to counseling (quit because I couldn't afford it), went to support groups etc. Now, it is the occassional falling. However, my weekness (or addiction) is going to be a lifelong struggle.
The sad reality is that an insane proportion of men (Christian and otherwise) are affected this way. Seminary T1 lines have been shut because of p*rn traffic. My point is that this is a different ball game than addiction or gambling. Concepts dealing with and gambling don't translate as easily as one might imagine.
I could go on, but I am afraid it might become inappropriate for this forum. So let me stop.
I agree with your assessment: things aren't as black and white as [Carla] says. She is passing through a traumatic time right now, and so her comments are understandable. But I'm quite sure that there are others would have a different view.
There is a sense in which addictions are addictions, and they're all the same. All addictions are spiritual in nature, and healing requires exercises that strengthen the spirit. Severe addictions (those affecting the quality of ones relationships, work, etc.) often have in common the inability to deal appropriately with guilt.
It is also true that there are important differences. Some addictions involve chemicals that complicate the picture. Others involve things we can't really do without. People who have eating addictions have it hard, because you can't just quite eating like you can just give up alcohol.
In the case of pornographic addiction there is an obvious connection to a healthy understanding of one's own sexuality—or the lack thereof. If one is not in a healthy place with one's own sexual nature, the addiction can be extremely difficult. Sadly there is much Christian teaching that is unbiblical, nonfactual, and promoting of sexual unhealth.
Remember that you may email me if you wish more detailed discussion.
I may be having a hard time, but I believe in honesty--always have and always will. If for some reason I ever start dating again, I will insist on friendship first. I will tell any potential guy before we go out on a romantic date that I've been married twice and divorced twice. He will know that I've committed adultry in my past. He will know that sex was a weakness for me. Infact, he will know anything and everything that could affect his feelings for me. Why? Because I do care about others and their feelings. They will be able to make an honest manipulation-free choice to get to know me or not.
If anyone does believe it's okay to hide the real problems until your potential significant other is hooked on you, you're invited to share why that's okay. Perhaps you'll be able to change my mind about honesty in a relationship.
Otherwise, I hope those of you who've been burned by someone dropping a bomb on you after you fell inlove will speak up on this thread.
I don't know that I would go so far as to tell all my problems out of the gate but I agree with you, it is unfair to withold the information too far into the dating relationship.
That may be the advantage of becoming a friend with the person prior to becoming a boyfriend/girlfriend! You are more likely to get to know the real person than the one who is trying to impress.
The other end of that however is that people do change, I discovered naturism/nudity after I had been married for several years... Much more of a problem to deal with. Some of the issues I struggled with before telling my wife were...
...Is it sinful (I decided no)
...Will she embrace it (I found out no -- so far anyway)
...Will she reject me (I found out no -- so far anyway)
...Will there be a dialog opened (I found out no -- so far anyway)
I recently visited a "local" hotspring. When telling her I was going, she replied... "Just go, I don't want to know".
Hey Bornnude,
People grow and change and they'll continue to do so even when married. You came across Naturism and you had two choices: Keep it to yourself and sneak around your wife's back, which would've casted a great deal of suspicion and doubt on you when she eventually did find out. Or tell her the truth, which kept her trust of you intact. I commend you for doing the right thing!
When I first met my husband, I had just come out of an illicit love affair with a roommate I had at the time. I was ashamed and I didn't tell any of my friends. But, of course, my other roommates suspected. After meeting Matt, I knew I had two choices: wait until my sin was exposed by someone else (which very easily could've happened because all my roommates were big mouths) or to just tell Matt flat out. Now, I didn't tell him right out of the gates. We started off as friends so I didn't feel the need to tell him. When I realized what his intentions were in getting to know me, I did tell him before he had the chance to become attached emotionally to me.
What I can't understand on this thread is the double standard (I'm not saying you have a double standard, bornnude), but there is one on this thread. "Don't tell anyone what could affect them emotionally right away, but do bear all infront of strangers you may never see again."
Wash the outside of the cup but don't wash the inside until someone's already had a drink from it... :^?
Healthy people don't dump every detail of their lives right at the starting gate of a relationship. Generally a first date is intended to just be an enjoyable time with someone of the opposite sex. It's not intended to be a proposal of marriage. If one party is forced to hear way too much detail before ever getting to know the other, and feels the expectation to reciprocate, that first date may not happen. Certainly the second may not.
Whatever is shared must be honest, but the depth of sharing requires some judgment if the healthy relationship is to be nurtured.
You're exactly right that it's far better to be friends for a while before moving on to romance. Many couples short circuit that healthy possibility by having sex early. Sex near the beginning of the relationship means that the friendship portion never has a chance. But even friendships require some discretion as to what level of sharing is suitable. If a casual friend reveals information that one should only share with a "best friend," most people will seek more distance. It's just too much.
When my wife and I were dating, there were things I told her after I began to consider a lifetime with her that simply wouldn't have been appropriate on our first date, and that might indeed have prevented a wonderful relationship from developing. The same was true also with her. Now, years later, she has told many friends that she has had no surprises in being married to me: I am what she thought I was when we were married. My word about her is the same: no surprises after the wedding.
You're right that people do change. It's the normal, natural progression of life. The extreme of this is when a gal marries a guy who's on the way into a high-paying occupation only to have him decide years later that he is called to ministry. Some marriages thrive on that kind of change, but others don't make it.
A new desire to start on a life of naturism is one of those changes that can bring stress and conflict if not handled gently and patiently. Like your situation, my wife initially didn't even want to talk much about it, let alone do it [socially. Nudity at home with just the two of us has never been an issue]. She too wanted me to just go alone and leave her out of it.
But mutual love, respect, and caring can overcome differences in development and make room for each to become the person that is right for them. I also think that mutual love, respect, and caring can be tough enough to prevent the other from becoming something that would be less than their best.
Hey Luvnaturism,
I think we're never going to agree on this. Out the gates before a first date, a man will know all that could affect his feelings for me. If he can't reciprocate, he can find another woman.
My last word and then I'm done. I guess it comes down to confession. Do you believe confession is only among best friends or are we commanded to confess our sins one to another?
I don't know any of you intimately and you all know everything my best friend knows. I've committed adultry with men, I confessed that to you all my first week here. I wouldn't consider any of you my best friend. My church knows that about me. I've confessed my sins to my brothers and sisters in Christ. I talk openly and honestly because that's what I know God wants. He doesn't want me to hide anything.
Did I tell Matt about my roommate? Before I even told him about my roommate, I had already told him about how I was with other men and had committed adultry. He knew I wasn't a virgin when we we're still talking as friends. The only reason I put off telling him about my roommate was because I still had shame over it. When I realized how selfish I was being in keeping that information from him when he was obviously starting to want more than friendship with me, I told him.
I'm not saying one has to give specific details right out of the gate. In that there can be agreement. Being honest right out of the gate is the healthiest thing anyone can do. Like me confessing I've slept with other men when I'm talking about Christ to strangers, and listing all the men I've slept with when talking to a friend. Like me confessing to drunkeness, but not telling stories about all my drunken adventures. Sure, there is a thing as too much information at one time and I do believe we should follow the Spirit's lead about giving details when it's necessary. But, confessing there is sin in your life to someone who could be affected by that sin? You bet, right out of the gates.
Hey Jerry,
However you feel about porn and however you may struggle with it or decide to live with it, my whole point is that you should be honest about it with any woman you're considering getting to know on romantic levels. I just think it's a crappy thing to do to get a woman "hooked" on you first before you tell her about your addiction. You should be upfront from the get go. Anything else is dishonest manipulation. I can't be your conscience for you, all I can say is I've been tricked by guys who wanted me to accept them fully but never told me what I was suppose to be accepting until we became serious. I can say with all sincerety, they were just being selfish and I was the being forced into a situation I didn't have to be in if they had only told me what was going on when we were still just friends.
I guess you have to chose between hurting yourself or hurting others; to be selfish and look for your own gain, or to prefer others' feelings by letting them make an honest choice to get to know you.
