Hello everyone,
My first spouse was Muslim, and its not uncommon to be working with someone of the Islam faith, in the Chicago area. I have a real hard time understanding how Muslims have been able to view Mohammed as the last prophet, and the Koran as inspired by God. I do know a lot of the history of this religion, but when my kids and I have discussions about this, they too struggle with the teachings of Islam. Why did Mohammed reject Christ so strongly as the Messiah?
Boyd, I'm sure you have done research on Islam, and could provide me with some feedback. My daughter goes to a very conservative Lutheran university, and classmates will tell her that her grandparents are in Hell because they were Muslim. First of all, this is cruel,and second, I find it hard to believe that God is that vengeful. Yes, I do believe, and accept Christ and His teachings, but for those who have been raised very strictly in another culture, I can't accept eternal damnation. Even in the Hindu belief, there is a prophecy about the birth of Christ, which makes me think that God had shown Himself to people in Asia thousands of years ago. Our Bible comes from the middle east, the Jewish culture, so we really don't have any input from the east.
Am I rambling????
Thanks for your input,
Beth
Beth
I believe that when God gives inspiration to a person he has to over come the predudices and biases that the person has. I have heard many sermons which I feel were inspired by God but incomplete because the preachers did not accept all of the message!
The Koran is a collection of writings which are good (Can good come from evil). It accepts Jesus as a prophet of God, only not the Son of God. I feel that in this way Mohamed was prbably influenced by the Gnostics who beleived that Jesus was not born devine but became so by being close to God in his life. These Gnostic Christians were the most prevalent group of Christians in the Arabian peninsula at the time of Mohamed. This concept is similar to that of the Brahmins of the Hindo faith who believe Jesus became a god in this lifetime, just as Gahndi did by the way he lived. Mohamed's bias was he could not see man becoming God as being correct.
Tevita
Kevin I will not say you are wrong, I will say that I grew in my Christian faith by reading the teachings of Mohamed, Budha, and other Eastern teachers.
I find that by acknowledging the good but incompletness of others faiths I have an audeance to speach of Jesus, if I denigrate their beliefs I have created an enemy.
Thr difference between being Christian and the other faiths is not that we are better, rather we have Jesus in our lives and that is what makes our faith complete. We don't have to search anymore.
I recommend reading the writtings of Dr E Stanley Jones, an American Missionary (yes some good does come out of America), who spent many years in India and has written devotional books and other writings over a period of about 60 years. By getting me to read these God has turned my methods of witnessing around and I find witness is becoming far more effective, even with the young hard to get through to academics who try and spout philosophy at me. I used to spout philosophy back and we arqued now they can't as I only give them Jesus and they can't arque against him.
An example of who different this man's writings are: In one of his books he says that it is unnatural for us to sin. God did not create us to sin and what God does not create is not part of our nature. Also he states that when a peron sins he becomes unwell and this proves that we were not made with the capacity to sin. Sin is an abomination which we were not meant to do so do not say that it is in man's nature to sin.
Tevita
Hi, again, Nakedspirit! If you've read my response to Tevita, you will know my interest in this missionary statesman of the last century. Information on him is at a website of an ongoing group of family camps that he established called United Christian Ashrams. They have a website www.christianashram.org.
On a family camp book table that is no longer functioning, I had several of his books. There may still be some in the boxes I have in storage, if you are interested. Reading just one of his many year-long devotionals will get you hooked on him. Several college-age kids at the church out of which I do my retirement-home pastorate were extremely turned on by him. But almost all of them abandoned us for Bible School to prepare for Christian service....
Dr E Stanley Jones wrote many books but his first was "Christ of the Indian Road", after this he wrote a number of books that can be used as a year long devotional. It does not matter when you start them but follow them for the 364 studies, they don't go with leap years. Unfortunately they are out of print but are obtainablr via Amazon.com and other book search engines. If enough people start pusshing for copies then may be the publishing houses will do reprints. This man's thoughts are particularly relavent for the post 9/11 era.
Tevita
Tevita, I was glad to hear of your study of E. Stanley Jones' works, almost all of which are out of print. What a pleasant discovery it was for me when I read his devotional, HOW TO HAVE A TRANSFORMED LIFE, discovering exactly what you described... about finding the truth in other religions and other philosophical viewpoints which, when analyzed, can be seen that only in Christ can the human aspirations inherent in them be fulfilled. He was indeed a man ahead of his time, and a prolific writer... a pure-hearted Christian.
I'm not saying that sources other than the Bible can't be good, it just struck me how the statement was made. It was like "Yeah, this book is really great, too, it just dosn't believe that Jesus is God's son."
While I respect the opinion of others, I have a hard time getting too worked up in the religious writings of others that try to debunk the cornerstone of my own.
I too don't get carried away whith others teachings if they debunk my basic beliefs. Mohamed does not say that Jesus is NOT the son of God, he just states that he was a prophet of God, and he does use a term which has been translated by some as meaning "Messiah" when refering to Christ.
It must be remembered that there are some Chtistians who have difficulty with the deity of Christ as well, they believe that Christ attained his oneness with God by being close to God unto Death, and are ostrasized by the church as a result.
Tevita
You can be a prophet from God, and he was a prophet by definition, and not be the son of God. So in that case, it is not contradictory.
On the other hand, he was (and is) the Son of God, and by default, also a prophet as he came to earth. He was many things, including a prophet. However, being a prophet was not his goal. Dying for humanity after a sinless life, taking the sins of humanity on his shoulders, to die with him, resurrect, and return to the Father, sending the holy spirit, that was his goal (amongst others I didn't mention).
Boyd
This message has been edited by boydallen on Nov 15, 2004 6:05 PM
Beth, thanks for your thoughful post. I agree with you that the comments of her peers to your daughter about her grandparents are terribly cruel. I don't have easy answers to your searching questions, but I do believe passionately in the love and the grace of God as I have experienced it in Jesus Christ.
In the past several months I have been deeply touched and challenged by reading the book "If Grace Is True: Why God Will Save Every Person" written by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland. These men, writing together, affirm their experience of a loving God whose grace is unlimited and unconditional. As they have thus proclaimed God's love they hope that their message will be heard by millions of Christians who are trying to reconcile their love for Christ with their love for non-Christians. I commend this book to you in the hope that the understanding of God's grace proclaimed by Gulley and Mulholland will help you as you seek to understand the questions with which you struggle.
Muslims do not reject Jesus as the Messiah, in fact the Quran calls him Jesus the Messiah, son of Mary. However I'm not sure how off the translation is because many translators of the Quran are biased and will translate it to accomodate preconcieved beliefs. So you have alot of stuff about the Jews and Christians in the Quran when perhaps it is not really about them in particular, if you get my gist. Also alot of muslimeen are not really learned about the teachings of the Quran which does not, as far as I've seen, really speak of a last prophet or of Muhammad being this last prophet.
First of all, I really do not know much, if anything, about the muslim faith. I am just now getting a handle on the Christian faith!
But I do agree with you in that I do not believe that if people had no chance of knowing Christ, die, then go to hell. It is not always their fault. Often, it's because of our lack of teaching them. Even then, it is not an overnight success story when teaching them. God is patient, we tend to be impatient.
We have a tendancy to want to sell Christianity, and expect them to "buy it now or it will go to someone else tomorrow and it will be too late" . People do not want to be sold anything, even a new car they always wanted. Christianity is a way of life that is given to people freely. The holy spirit works on them.
Teaching Christianity is like a chain of events, and you are one of many links along the way. You may be the first link, which of course, leads to many more links before conversion by seeing or speaking to the last link many days, weeks or even years down the road. Or you may be the middle link or last link. It doesn't matter. It's when that link is broken that counts. Are you going to break, or be the strongest link in the chain?
I personally beleive in a merciful God, I do not believe that people go to hell and be tormented for tens of thousands of years over a sin that took only moments. Our lives are like a moment in time, but God's mercy is so great that our moment with him here, will be translated into a lifetime of joy.
We need to stop trying to condemn people and start loving all peoples, including muslims, Jews, even wickas (the people, not what they do), because they all need Jesus.
The last prophet? I don't think so. There are still prophets walking on earth today. Some are prophets, some are pastors, some are evangelists, some are....you get the point. Prophets are not necessarilly telling the bad stuff about our future. A prophet often warns people of their sins and are the type of people who could stand on a street corner and preach. I cannot do that. I am not a prophet. Nor am I an evangelist. I am more of a "Servant/pastor type, but not necessarily a church pastor/leader/preacher. I tend to lead servants in a servant role, encouraging other servants, praying for or with them. I am a type of person who wants to see the best in other people. I assume their salvation is secure, their sins will be overcome in time, but they just need encouraging and support.
Each Christian has a role in the chain links of life and salvation. Do not condemn the muslim, even they sometimes live their faith more faithfuly than we Christians do. Pray for them, (Remember: Pray for your enemies, pray for those who persecute you) But we are not to persecute them.
The Bible states that there is enough in nature to reveal God to us, without us having to be told. No person above the age of accountability will be able to plead ignorance at Judgement. However, that dosn't remove the responsibility of telling others about Jesus from Christians. We were told to do so by Jesus Himself.
And not to be cruel myself, but yes, anyone who dies without accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord will go to Hell. That's a message that cannot be sugar-coated in any way. We can't be so irresponsible as to give the impression that there is ANY way to God other than His Son.
As far as the Islamic faith and their thoughts and teachings, I don't know. My feelings on the subject- were there any prophets after Jesus? The Bible dosn't mention any. Why would we need more prophets when the object of their teachings, Jesus, has been revealed to us?
I know there is alot of discussion on this, and this is just my own view, and I make no claim to being correct in everything I say. If I'm wrong, scripturally, let me know so that I can re-adjust my thinking.
The Quran teaches:
Jesus did not die on the cross.
God does not have an only begotten son.
There is no Holy Trinity.
That the Comforter that Jesus promised was Mohammed (not the Holy Spirit).
The Bible teaches:
There is a place called Hell that was originally created for the Devil and the fallen angels, but will definitely include those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.
Hell is an eternity of separation from God, a place of dispair and outer darkness.
That those who call on the name of Christ will be saved (even a deadbed confession such as uttered by the thief on the cross was sufficient to gain entrance into paradise with Jesus.
And of those who have chosen eternity without Christ, there are degrees of punishment. We are accountable for what we know and given leniency for what we don't.
Only God knows the state of the souls of Beth's in-laws, and we would be sinning if we rush to judgement, but as Kevin said, we must not ignore the plain teachings of Jesus and the apostles on this matter. The souls of non-Christians are indeed in grave mortal peril. It is a treacherous path they walk without our savior.
Hi, folks! I am a pastor and an RN, who, having read the arguments for nudism, was seeking more personal viewpoints from Christian nudists. I came across this discussion of Islam and wanted to let you all know about a lady who came to California some years ago and spoke at 2 church services that I arranged for her. Her name is Gulshan Esther, a Pakistani Christian, now living in England, whose conversion from Islam was more striking than Paul's encounter with Christ on the Road to Damascus. Based on only the Qur'an's story of Christ and without any contact with Christians or Christianity at all, she prayed to the prophet Jesus of the Qur'an to heal her crippled legs, and Christ appeared to her, healed her, and taught her a new prayer: the Lord's prayer, word-for-word, repeating it several times until she could say it perfectly, then He left. Her book THE TORN VEIL, was published by Christian Literature Crusade. Aside from the story of the exciting miracles in her life, her book is a frank, inside view of Islam, from one who grew up in it. I want to suggest it to all interested. AND for anyone interested, I made up a short pamphlet telling about her story to advertise her coming to the Sacramento area. If anyone wants to have it, email me and I will send it to you as a Word file attachment.
I want to thank everyone for their input, and especially the additional literature. I will definitely check those out and share them with my kids.
Trialscout is very right about how the Muslims view Jesus. The New Testament says we will come to the Father by Christ. It does not say this must happen before we die. None of us can say for sure what happens when we die. Maybe God reveals himself again to everyone? Hell is for the evil ones, like Hitler.
I've had conversations with a Catholic nurse I work with and for her the idea of 'salvation' doesn't make sense, but at the same time, she believes in Christ, prays to God, and lives a Christian life, with God at the center. So, who is to say that what she has been taught for over 50 years is totally wrong. Catholicism is the oldest organized Christian religion. I don't agree with all of the doctrines, but I have respect for the belief. I grew up in a protestant church, with a limited view of the world. Actually being married to a Muslim did open my eyes a lot. My ex feels I'm doomed because of my belief in Christ as the Son of God.
I do feel like Tevita mentions that we should learn about other religions, otherwise we can't be critical of them. I find it very difficult to listen at all to Cal Thomas, which I know, Kevin, a lot of the southern conservatives listen to. I saw him on a show and he was so rude to another Christian man that it was unnerving. Sometimes Christians are too self-righteous, and refuse to listen to others.
Anyways,
DA BEARS won their third game in a row!!!!!
Have a blessed week, everyone.....
Beth
Beth I feel that it is important to learn from other faith's teaching to gain more insights for my own faith rather than to be critical of them. I then go back to the bible and find that many of my new insights were in the bible expressed in a way that I did not previously notice.
While I do say things that annoy the more conservative fellow Christians I am still within the river of orthogocy, according to the pastor whom we had last year and he was conservative!
Tevita
Somewhere (I'd have to look it up ), the Bible says that a man is alotted to die once, then judgement. That might answer you question about what happens when we die, and it also removes any question about reincarnation, if any body ever mentions that to you.
Welcome to the Forum, I hope we are helping you in your quest for understanding naturism and Christianity.
As you can see, we try to understand each other as much as we can. God comes in ways that we have a tendancy to limit him in. He can heal, he can show himself, he can do anything he wants to. It is our beliefs, or a lack of it, that hinders us.
I hope you continue with us for a while and maybe we can be of some help to you.
May God the Father and our Lord Jesus the Christ bless you,
