My question is, what can I compare, based on the Bible, to nudity? Nudity isn't called a sin, not "forbidden", but yet we think of it as if it was a sin. I guess that I'm looking for something opposite of the nudity thing. Something that the Bible doesn't call a sin, or isn't "against", but yet we all except it as being ok! I hope I'm explaining my self well, but I'm not sure I'm making sense!
I would like to use this example to my wife, to help explain nudity being exceptable. Something that must of us do, that the Bible doesn't condem, or even does condem (like the eating of pork), but yet we still do it. I think pork is a good example, but can anyone think of anything else?
I can think of a lot of instances where the Bible seems to direct us in one direction, while society seems to reward us if we follow another direction. A lot of these are arguable in both directions. This brings me to my point. It is dangerous to reduce the Bible to a book separates the right from wrong in every aspect of life. The main focus of the Bible is to allown us, regardless of the society that we belong to, to establish a relationship with our Father and expand His kingdom. There are some basic rights and wrongs that are provided to us - and they usually our relationship with God. For instance, thou shall not kill - because each individual bears the image of God. Thou shall not commit ery - our marriages are a reflection of God's love for His Church. There are several issues, such as form of government, nuedity etc that the Bible does not take a stand in a clear manner. I think this is intentional. Jesus went to great lengths to fight legalism. It is the heart that matters. I don't think I have mentioned anything new here that you might not know already - I am just throwing in some caution over nit-picking debates over right and wrong. Hope you have an uplifting conversation with your wife that bring you both closer to each other and to God.
Actually, the Bible should be considered a, or more correctly, THE source for how we should live out our lives. More than a basic set of guide lines, it speaks very clearly, both in what it says and in what it does not say.
The Old Testament is full of rules and regulations, things that were not to be done, and exactly how to do the things that were allowed. By Jesus' time those rules and regulations had become so epidemic that it was impossible to live without breaking some law somewhere. Jesus ended the whole problem when He reduced all their legality to two commandments- to love God with all your being, and to love each other. When you do those two simply (!!) things, you fulfill all those other laws.
Now, through the freedom we have through Jesus, we are allowed to do so much more than ever before.
Back to my first statement- If some action is forbidden to us, I believe that it will be said quite clearly in the Bible. Those are the things that are mentioned. The other side of that coin is all the things that are not directly forbidden, of which nudity is obviously one. Those things are given up to personal choice. If your faith allows you to be sure in your own heart, without any bad conscience, that it's okay, whatever it is, then it is allowed. We always have to keep our responsibilities and stewardship in mind, but other than that we are free- just don't, as Paul warned, feel that those freedoms allows us to sin...
Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to get to Rob, is that if the Bible dosn't say NOT to do something, then it is allowed, at least under the proper circumstances. If you can show that to your wife, and then show her that the Bible does NOT condemn nudity, that's all you should have to do. But... just because she comes to realize that she CAN be naked and unashamed, it dosn't mean that she will WANT to. Some people don't do everything that they are allowed. As example, I understand that I free to drink alcohol if I choose, as long as I don't get drunk, yet I choose not to.
If you can show your wife that nudity is allowed, and convince her that your motives are pure, you never know... she might do it just because she knows YOU want to. Wives are funny that way...
And as a side point- I don't remember seeing pork being forbidden ANYWHERE in the Bible. Did I miss it somewhere? God told Noah when he got off the ark that "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you." (Gen. 9:3) and then there's the whole sheet coming down out of heaven thing. I know that that was talking about the Gentiles being included in God saving grace, but the imagery is too clear to not also have the obvious food analogy in there, too. Did God go back on all that somewhere? I'm not trying to be cute, I just don't remember seeing it anywhere, and want to know if it IS in there.
Hope some of that rambling may have helped... somewhere at least.
God Bless
Kevin
Kevin wrote: "And as a side point- I don't remember seeing pork being forbidden ANYWHERE in the Bible. Did I miss it somewhere?"
Yes Kevin, pork is considered as sinful to eat and here it is
Leviticus 11:7 "And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you."
You will need to read the whole chapter to understand the hoof and cud thing.
Even fish has it's limits. Must have both fins and scales. Therefore, crustations are unclean. But there are animals people still believe are unclean such as dogs and cats. Funny, they are no more "unclean" than pigs. They may not taste good, but when did taste come into the picture?
Giraffes are clean! Yup, lots ane lots of meat! They chew the cud and have split hooves!
See Deut. 14:8 "The pig is also unclean, although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses."
(Using NIV)
Also see Isaiah 65:4 and 66:3,7 Talks about the use of swine in sacrifices. If it is unclean, then it cannot be used for sacrifices.
As for the "sheet" story, read the conclusion that Peter came up with. Each time the story was told, it was always in connection to the three gentiles that came to see Peter. Three times the sheet was offered, three times it was rejected, three times God said "do not unclean that which I have cleansed". God cleansed what was on the sheet and offered to Peter. Peter always concluded and taught to the church that God cleansed the gentiles. Neither Peter nor the other apostles say or conclude that pork was now clean. The eating of pork or other "unclean" animals was never brought up as discussion. The discussion was about the gentiles and was left at that.
Yes, we are aware that all "food" is clean. But remember, the Old Testament does not call pig "food" anymore than you would call dogs or cats "food". The Mark 7 issue was not talking about "clean and unclean meats" but food eaten with cleaned (physically washed or ceremonially washed) or unclean hands.
There were a lot of things that the Jewish community called "unclean" outside of the known meats, such as pork. Pig was never an issue, it was the other immagined or real uncleanness that was around them. Such as handling dead bodies makes a person "unclean" until they followed the cleansing rituals.
Jesus was saying that physically, these things are really unnecessary, though he does acknowledge the rituals that are required by Moses. The Pharasees were getting picky about the disciples not stopping and publicly (showing everyone else) their washing ritual that was more of a public display of "righteousness" than actually getting the hand clean for health reasons. The disciples may very well have washed their hands just a few minutes before the Pharasees came along, but since they didn't see it because it wasn't a public display, they assumed the disciples were unclean.
Do you honestly think Jesus during his controversial ministry while standing in the middle of a public market and without any real reason would suddenly make all meats clean for eating? Again, we need to look at the reason the subject was brought up in the first place. Would Jesus announce this without the Pharasees saying something about the washing of hands? No. So the subject was the hands and the dirt that was on it, not the meats that the Laws of Moses had commanded unclean.
Again, we need to read the context, not read into the message.
it's not what you eat or if you wash your hands...
January 22 2005, 4:18 PM
it's the evil that comes out of your heart that makes unclean...the OT restrictions on what to eat and washing Isreal lived under are gone and we are under grace
That is correct. I am not saying that we are under the OT law, and I hope you don't think that is what I am saying. But the idea that what is unclean comes from the heart is correct. To imply that we can eat pork comes from this verse cannot be correct since we are under grace and not the Mosaic law.
There can be no argument on this since it is a moot point. Therefore, since nudity has never been condemned in the bible directly, we can argue this point.
<To imply that we can eat pork comes from this verse cannot be correct since we are under grace and not the Mosaic law.>
i like the NIV on these verses
NIV
Mark 7:14-19
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this.
15 Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.’ ”
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable.
18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’?
19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all
foods “clean.”)
We can take a vague issue like this and argue over whether all foods meant "all meats", regardless of whether it is food or not. That isn't the point.
The point is that with this one statement, people over the world not only eat the hog, they eat the "whole hog" including the intestines (chitlins). Where we still take what was already clean and eat only portions of it (have you ever heard of a Cow Head Cheese?) And take what has NEVER been called unclean or a sin and make it a sin.
Churches today insist that it is a sin to drink wine, and Jesus drank it all the time! It is central and essential to the Communion! And the same people who say wine is a sin to drink, in spite of the many many examples of wine drinking and usage in the bible, and then eat the whole hog just because of one verse that may have meant it is OK to eat "unclean" meats.
That is my real point. Be honest with you, I do eat pork, on occasion! I personally don't like the stuff, but I ran into some that is OK. But I don't go out of my way to get it. If I had a choice between beef and pork, I'll take the beef everytime! Am I hipocrytical? no. I just say that it is not a stong point in the bible by comparison to the other strong views that the same people ignore!
It's not really a spiritual issue, but many make it so. By making it a spirtual issue, they cause more stumbling blocks for people and remove the grace of God and replace it with rules and regulations that do nothing for the spirit, except maybe squelch it.
That is my real point. But yes, I was correct in saying that the bible does have absolutely specific commands spelled out at least twice that pork is not to be eaten! And there is absolutely no command, even hinted at that being nude is a sin! And somehow, we got it reversed!
Yes, I know Jesus said what he said, but look at his audience! They were Jewish. They were not looking for pork to eat, they have seen him being challedged of being unclean spiritually and ceremonially! Do you think they suddenly ran home and started raising pigs and eating whole hog? No. And I doubt seriously the disciples did either. don't forget, Jesus was accused of being a drunkard, because he drank wine, accused of being a sinner, because he hung out with sinners, accused of blasphemy because he called God his Father, etc. But he wasn't accused of eating pork, nor was his disciples. But they didn't wash their hands, therefore, they were accused of being ceremonially unclean.
He may very well have intended his audience to relax on the Mosaic laws of clean and unclean meats, but a more important thing was happening, and it was spiritual.
The bible was a list of physical health standards and a list of spiritual health standards. We have to make up our minds which are which. We also need to look at the principals behind each and then both become relavant for all and for all ages and times!
Tevita
I have heard that it really made a point when Jesus sent the demons into the heard of swine.
Matthew 8:30-32 (The Message)
Off in the distance a herd of pigs was browsing and rooting. The evil spirits begged Jesus, "If you kick us out of these men, let us live in the pigs."
Jesus said, "Go ahead, but get out of here!" Crazed, the pigs stampeded over a cliff into the sea and drowned
Boyd you said that dogs and cats are as clean as pork but may not taste nice. I have not eaten cat but dog does taste nice and apparantly cat does also. The dream that Peter had on the roof before going to the house of the Roman centurian says all is clean.
Tevita
A theolgical reasearcher once said to me that if the Blible is seen as a set of principles, not a set of rules the church would be a better place. He used the example of Clean and unclean food to illustrate this. Pigs were often infested by paracites and as the body of the pig is similar to the human these paracites were easily transfered to humans. Shell fish are detritus feeders and become infected with disease easily particularly growing near raw sewerage. With different health concerns now we should then come up with different health standards such as Thou shalt not eat the meat of a cud eater that has been fed meat refuse such as blood and bone mixed in the feed or offal products as trhis is what introduces "Mad Cow Disease to beef etc.
The Bible is a book of guide lines which has to be read carefully otherwise we become like the Jewish leaders of the time of Christ who went to extremes to show how spiritually pure they were.
I don't think any of the responses really answered your question, and I don't have a direct answer either (but I would like an example too).
Something a good pastor friend of mine once told me the Bible contains everything we need to know about how to live this life and be assured of everlasting life. You may have heard the tongue-in-cheek explanation of the word "bible" - it's an acronym for "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth". I emphasize the word "basic".
God created us, and He knows what is best for us and only wants the best for us. What He tells us to do and not do is our own best interest. God's main mission is reconciliation of his people to himself for his glory.
I interpret silence on a general topic (such as being naked) and reference in specific situations or contexts say a lot about the topic relative to what's really important to God. I think the Bible is not explicit regarding nakedness because rules regarding being naked are not relevant to the main purpose of the Bible.
HOWEVER, the Bible is clear about sins that are committed while naked (adultery, homosexuality, etc.). Similarly, the Bible does not condemn drinking wine, but it condemns drunkeness.
I will share some wisdom I learned from the book, "The World According To God" later. Right now I need to get to work.
80vette, great points about nude vs. the sins commited while nude! Now if I can just get my wife to listen.
I also realize that she most likely won't have any interest in being nude, and I'm fine with that, I just want her to realize that I do, and that there is nothing wrong with that in the scriptures! When I'm nude at home, AFTER our daughter is in bed & asleep, she won't even look at me, how ever if I'm in our bedroom, she doesn't have a problem with me being nude. She is TOTALLY AGAINST NUDITY!I will not allow this to get between us, but I do want her to see my side of this debate.
my wife was raised that nudity was not ok...she has to wear clothes...that's just the way she is...maybe just read the bible together and when nudity is encountered spend some time meditating on what it means and why it's there
I am finding that people who insist on wearing clothing and won't even look at their own mates nude (except briefly in the bedroom) I wonder about other issues in life that needs to be resolved first.
As long as people do not fully accept the full grace that God the Father has extended to us through His Son Jesus the Christ, then they will never find peace and joy in their lives. Clothing will still be a security blanket they will need to hide behind until they come to fully realize the amazing grace of God.
Many are still not convinced we are no longer under the penalty of Adam and Eve because they have not fully accepted Jesus' full pardon of ALL sins! As a song goes, "Not in part, but in whole" (was that "It is Well With My Soul"?
Anyway, I would persue the rest of her life, (or his, depending on who is reading this) and seek out helping each other come to the full grace of God before breaching the subject of nudity. It may come a day from now or a year or so. Hopefully, not "never" because we need the full grace in all of us. We need to get off of our legal horse and start walking with dignity. We cannot live in the shame and fear we once lived in. Adam and Eve lived in shame and fear. That is NOT how God wanted us to live! The reason they hid and put something over them is because they became ashamed of the created image of God. So our question remains, what part of God are we ashamed of, when we hide in fear? What are we afraid of? Do we realize that the sins of Adam and Eve and their curses (resulting from sin) has been forgiven and washed away?
Jeremiah 31:29-30 "In those days,people will no longer say, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge." Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour greapes, his own teeth will be set on edge.
31, "The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah..."
The point here being made is that we are no longer taking the bitter punishments of our fathers sins. The sins we commit does affect our children, but our children are not punished by God for our sins. Nor are our families. Yes we affect those around us, but it is not a punishment as it was in the days of Isreal. To cut to the point, we are not being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve IF we accept Jesus Christ as our saviour and Lord and King! If we insist on living by the old covenant and ignore the new covenant God made with us, then we will still be treated as those in the old covenant. But if we accept the new covenant under Jesus Christ, then we are no longer under the penalty of the old. Therefore, what God did to and for Adam and Eve no longer applies. We are back in the presence of the throne of grace, or another way, back in the Garden. We CAN eat of the tree of life, which was denied to Adam and Eve after they sinned! God did NOT want them to eat of the tree of life in their sinful state. But since we have been forgiven, why on earth are we denying the tree of life? Jesus is that tree! When we partake of the communion, are we not eating of the tree of life?
"I am the Tree, you are the branches" --Jesus
We cannot under any circumstances say that we are still under the penalty of Adams' sin! We are now under Jesus Christ, The Second Adam!
