Something happened at work yesterday that made me stop and think (I hate having to do that).
We have several national tool companies who have route drivers that stop at the shop weekly to try and get us to buy tools (One of those companies is the same as the one your neighbor sells for, Boyd). Well, a regional supervisor was riding along with one of the guys Wednsday, trying to make big sales or whatever. He wandered over to the other mechanics toolbox (which he had sold to him at an outrageous deal...), then wandered over to mine. My box is smaller, so I guess he was looking to "upgrade" me. Well, he never got around to it. Seems he was too distracted by the photos of Myra that I have up in the top of my box. She's very obviously naked in the photos, but is still covered enough that nobody can really say too much about it. He was quite surprised that I would have pictures up of a naked woman like that. Nothing sexual about them at all (which is probably the only reason the boss lets me keep them up), just naked.
Anyway... fast foreward to yesterday morning. The other mechanic and I are having a very interesting discussion about nudity, etc, that started over a "Dear Abby" letter in which a woman is concerned about her new boyfriends' walking into the living room naked after a shower when his 8 year old daughter was there. From what I got of the letter, neither the father nor the daughter seemed to think it was anything out of the ordinary, but the woman wondered about the propriety of his nakedness in front of his daughter (while I was more concerned about his nakedness in front of his obviously very new girlfriend).
So during the course of our discussion, which can get quite heated due to the both of us having very... loud personalities, my friend brings up this interesting point. Okay I know you had to read through alot of crap to get this far , so here it finally is...
His opinion, one of many, was that alot of nudists enjoy their being naked around others due to the shock value that it has, kind of an "in your face" kind of thing. He isn't against nudists at all, but isn't one himself. In stating his point he referanced the reaction the tool salesman had to Myra's photo's. He said that when HE saw the photo's he didn't see a naked woman, that he just saw Myra, because he knew her personally, and she was a "real" person to him (even stranger because this guy is one of the most sexually-minded people I've ever met). He didn't use those exact words, but that was the idea. Then he says that the salesman, though, all he saw was a naked woman. That made me think.
I believe very strongly that people should be able to accept me for who I am, even though that often means accepting a naked man. That hasn't worked out for me very well, and it's shown me how very obviously many people aren't ready to accept a naked person.
The question is this- how do we get them to look past the fact that we're NAKED people, and just see that we're PEOPLE, just like they are? I've had so many people respond so differant to me in regards to nudity than they would over anything else. Their minds are so set towards nudity being so shocking, usually sexual, that it actually changes their perceptions of us as people. Whenever that salesman tells anybody about the pictures that I have up, he'll probable talk about the naked pictures that I had up of my wife, not that I had pictures up of my wife.
I had never thought about it in quite those terms, and I still don't know just what to think about it. It was a shock to realize that somebody would see JUST the nakedness, and not the person themselves. I guess that goes to show how differantly I think than most others- it never even occured to me. I've always heard about people sexualizing or objectifing nakedness, but I guess it took a personal experience to make me really understand it.
Friends and family are one thing- they know you. But how do we get those not close to us personally to see us as real people, not just as people who want to run around naked? I've finally begun to understand just how strongly that idea of us can change their opinions regarding us, how it can cause them to dismiss us out of hand, and I really don't like it.
So... what do we do about it?
Kevin
This message has been edited by boydallen on Mar 26, 2005 6:57 PM
I think I found the answer in your story. (Which was a good story).
There were two basic views, one from a friend who knew your wife, the other was one who did not even know she was your wife, (otherwise he may have come too close to getting a close up view of your fist).
The same thing with the man and his "very new girlfriend". Both did not know the subject (nudist) very well. All they knew was that they were suddenly confronted by a naked person they did not expect to see otherwise.
The salesman was interested in selling you a "Big Red Box 'O Tools" only to get sidetracked by something he thought was unusual. The "girlfriend" didn't know the man very well either and got suspicious since he is raising his daughter by himself. If he went nude while a new GF was there, what did he do when no-one was there? So I can understand her concerns.
Even then, when our friends are forewarned, they would still get a sense of "shock" or momentary confusion when they see us nude.
I think having a track record with the people and they actually know you and your family, will make a difference.
Now that I think about it, when I had that time in Lexington (a home I lost two years ago) I was pretty much nude as much as possible. I was able to tell some neighbors about it and had no problems with it. It was when new neighbors came in that the problems began. I already had a track record of being a good neighbor and always wanting to help and serve. So when I asked for a little leniency, I got it. But when the new folks moved in, there was no communication, they didn't know me, they just saw a "naked man" and called the police. Even when they knew that I had been there long before they were and were possibly going nude all the time.
I think it's a lot to do with who you know (or who knows you well enough) and your track record with them, and/or the environment (such as a nudist resort or a part of town or neighborhood that don't give a hoot).
My wife and I were camping with some friends (a couple from our church) and had our canoes. Gwin and I found a quiet place to canoe off to and did some skinny dipping. Later, we saw our two friends come around the bend and quickly turned their canoe the other way and got out. They were NOT offended by our nudity, but they had to admit that they were a little surprised to see the reality of what we said we were, (they knew) and two, they wanted us to keep our privacy and three, they wanted a quiet place to be by themselves. So it wasn't just the nudity. But it did catch them off guard.
I think you shouldn't worry about it too much, but we do need to be more open to the friends we do have, (they do know us, give them a chance) and create a better track record with them and our neighbors. The more we are helping, serving, showing honesty, and giving them time to know us, the better chances we have of being honest about our lifestyle, and even find naturists within our midst.
Another couple that sometimes camp with us four admited that they sometimes like going nude too. But it wasn't really a social thing.
But you are right, there is a pattern and maybe we need to take a closer look at it and find out if there is an answer there. Jesus created the church to be a social church, he also wants us to have a relationship with him and each other. I think the answer is within that kernel of information and we need to let it grow.
Thank you for that story and observation and I hope we can all learn from it.
All that needs to be done is to find someone who lost weight at a nudist resort...nudity is about getting in shape, eating right and spiritual focus...I think in the minds of most people social nudity has a trailer park image where people are running from trailer to trailer in some wild sex orgy
Kevin and Boyd both of your posts are interesting and have a point for witnessing not only to nudity but also Christianity. In both cases we need to build a relationship with someone before we have the right or privilege of sharing personal information with them.
Prior to my accepting Christ the one way to put destroy any chance of being able to witness to me was to ask "Are you saved?" even before you asked my name. I had more than one person do this to me and have even experienced it since accepting Christ as both my Savior and my Lord. I have never developed a close relationship with any of these people.
Others took just a little time to find out where I was spiritually and then witness to me there, bringing me a step closer to salvation and then spiritual maturity.
Our views on nudity have a loose parallel. Though not nearly as important as eternal salvation it must be revealed after relationship is established to be accepted. One statement was that the new GF was surprised by the man and his daughter's comfort with his nudity. The father and daughter had a relationship built it doesn't seem there had been much of one established between dad and gf. Also there was a relationship established between Kevin, Myra and his coworker which reflected acceptance verses the lack or relationship with the salesman.
That is correct, and may I add, the most successful evangelistic tool you can have is a relationship. Even in sales, the good sales person who sits in your home, is the one who asks the right questions first, and the important one is "who are you", where are you in life, etc. The basic rule of good salesmanship is "FORM". Family, Occupation, Recreation, then last: Money. Never, NEVER the other way around!
Same with Christianity. Jesus fed the people, took care of their basic needs, then gave the gospel. Now of course, if those things are already met, the people came looking for the gospel, then you can give it straight up. Same with a salesperson in a store, they are approached to give the sales pitch, so "FOR" is not as much as the issue unless the [wise] salesperson wants the information to help them make the right (or informed) choice. And again, that is true for Christianity and of course, naturism. You need to know where the person is at before you can make a good recommendation, even if they ask for one directly.
And for us, in this group (Christian Naturism (CN) broadly speaking) we need to make sure that our information and education in naturism is mixed well with Christianity because Christianity is far more important than naturism.
So how do we start? If they ask, first find out if they are a Christian, then you will know how to approach the issue. If not a Christian, then go back to naturism while getting to know the person (this is the "they asked first" approach) and then sprinkle Christianity all through the naturism subject. Either they will accept naturism, Christianity or both, or they will get tired of your subject of Christianity. Either way, the gospel is spoken.
I think the advantage that we CN's have is that we give a different light to Christianity than any other group out there. In fact, our viewpoint may lead MORE people to Christianity due to the realization of just how much God loves us, how much we are freed. (Not free to sin) Often, people hear "freedom" only to find more laws and restrictions than they had before. Often we "Christians" become better Jews than the Jewish people! Our church had been accused of that before, and it isn't easy to do either.
I would like to see this discussion go further. If you have any further input, that would help.
Boyd "I may have been a 'better Jew' but was never circumsized" Allen
People not associated with social nudity just don't know how to react when seeing a naked person, particularly someone they know. Don't hide. Tell others, as long as you know they can take it. Don't blurt it out in public. Some tender souls get offended by knowing some of us go naked, because of improper (I like to call it devil-based) teaching on the subject.
That thing you mentioned in Abby showed up in the Washington Post in Ask Amy. Her e-mail is askamy@tribune.com. In the response, she says about "Good parents will teach their children not to show their bodies in front of those of opposite sex." In the column, the father was showing up naked in front of his daughter and new girl friend. I've thought about responding to Amy. Maybe some of you can thing of an appropriate response about what good parents really ought to teach their kids about nudity.
I think Amy gave good advice to her reader...imho outside of naturist events we should not expose our private areas to others who are not our spouses...boundaries are needed so the fine line between non-sexual and sexual is clear and not in question...coming out of the shower in front of someone who is not expecting you to be naked is exhibitionist behavior not naturist
While I underestand the need for discretion, I believe that Amy's blanket condemnation of nakedness around others is too broad.
We should be as able to be naked around others outside of nudist venues as we are in them. The only thing that changes is that at a nudist venue our nakedness is to be expected, while outside of those venues it generally is not expected.
If we communicate our thoughts and feelings to those around us, as we talked about in the above messages, it should become at least possible for others to acccept our nakedness.
Limiting our nakedness to our spouses while outside of a nudist environment does nothing to promote our views on non-sexual nudity. We can talk about it to people until we're blue in the face, but without real world application, we're just a bunch of talkers, not walkers.
We need to show others that being naked is a non-sexual way to experience the world a bit more fully than clothed. To limit that experience to just our spouses takes that wonderful opportunity to teach others the joys that we know of being naked away from us, and away from them, too.
And as far as making the boundary between sexual and non-sexual clear,well... clothing has absolutely nothing to do with that. Lack of clothing dosn't automatically make someone or something sexual, just as being clothed dosn't make it non-sexual. What defines sexual vs. non-sexual is behavior. I can be dressed like an Eskimo and totally sexual in action, or completely sexually "non-existant" while totally naked. It's all in what you project. If you act sexual, what you have on is irrelevant, and vice-versa.
Just my thoughts
God Bless
Kevin
This message has been edited by boydallen on Mar 27, 2005 4:35 PM
In Amy's reply she states "I feel that opposite-gender parents shouldn't be completely nude in front of their adolescent children. " Boy, could she be any more wrong? Why not? I have been an on-again, off-again home nudist for a while now. I feel that we are raising our children free from the "Puritan society thinking" that any nudity is bad and sexual. My daughter who is now eight sometimes jokes and shouts "Naked Daddy" when I am nude. I know that she is not going to be negatively affected by seeing me nude. If anything, as she grows older, it will give her a positive influence on how to view nudity in a non-sexual manner. Whenever I saw my parents naked growing up, they were always quick to cover up quick as possible, as if to hide something that was bad and not to be seen.
Being Christians, my wife occasionally struggles with the fact that I am naked at times in front of our daughter. She feels that sometime soon I will have to stop, although I am not sure why. She is concerned that as she gets older, she will talk to her friends and share that her daddy is sometimes naked. I feel that if she sees us naked on a regular basis and it is common place that she will have no reason to talk about it, thinking that it is regular behavior. I think a young girl would be more likely to talk to her friends when all of a sudden at age ten or whatever she would see her father naked for the first time and have no idea what a penis or pubic hair was. I am sure that a young girl could be rather surprised seeing a naked man for the first time and definately have questions.
My wife does not enjoy nudity as I do however, she does not hide her body from the children ( we also have a four year old son) if she is nude. She will occasionally check on the children while she is naked or in the morning when she is getting dressed the children will sometimes see her naked also. Then it is "Naked Mommy". We are able to have fun and enjoy when we are naked.
I know that the question to Ask Amy was sent in by a new girlfriend who was shocked by her boyfriends actions. She wanted to know what the "rule of thumb or norm regarding an opposite-sex parent's nudity in front of their children?" GF stated that she came from a "very conservative environment and do not remember ever seeing (her) father without clothing." Just imagine how different this country would be if more parents were able to be nude in front of their children. This new GF would not have a problem if her father felt comfortable to be nude and know that there is no shame in others seeing your body as God created you. If more people were to teach their children that nudity is OK and that there is a differance between sensual nudity and sexually nudity, so many people would not throw a hissy fit when a woman's breast falls out during a football game. Well maybe they would. But at least they would see sit the breast as a beautiful thing and not some perverse and evil object. (this is probably the worst scenario I could have written about, but the only one I could think of at a little past midnite.)
Amy also states "Good parents teach their children that their own bodies are not for sharing;" that is true. Our bodies are not to be shared physically, and not shared until we are married. Good parents also teach their children that it is OK to be naked, it helps with body acceptance. But most important, good parents must teach their children of the love of Jesus Christ, and that he loves us even though we are sinners and that he died for our sins on the Cross.
Well I believe that I have rambled on long enough, May God bless you all in all you do.
Oh! Hey, could you call my step-daughter and tell her everything that you just wrote? Just kidding, but I wish SOMEBODY would- she certainly won't hear it from me....
Thanks for all the good input and ideas, everybody.
Seems like everybody is pretty much on the same track- relationship first, then new ideas, either Christianity or nakedness.
I've always tried to keep in a position where the people I relate to everyday will continue to talk to me (and that ain't always easy!!), so that I can slowly bring out my ideas about Christianity over time. I want to hit them over the head with it all at once, but very few people will stand for that. Too much change.
Guess I need to more fully adopt that stradegy to my views on being naked. I don't run out yelling it in the streets, but I tend to expect more acceptance from friends and family than they seem ready to give.
Strengthen the relationship, and that should allow my "wierdo" views to be taken with just a little more credit.
KJV
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Live life Christ centered...non believers are aware they're not saved...they can see you are different...if they ask about what you believe you have like 30 seconds to tell them and if you can make it personal about you instead of because someone said so there is a much better chance of them wanting to talk more about Jesus and not run away from you the next time you meet
when nudism comes up in a conversation it is usually in sexual content...here is your chance to tell them about nudity and what it means to you...i have found most people will consider what you have to say
Sounds like you've been running across the same material. We must make the gospel personal, and yes, we have a short time to do it it.
I haven't really put a "personal" twist on the gospel but that doens't mean I am not able to say it. I just have a communication problem that is difficult to use in a verbal sense. My communication comes out better in writing. I can always go back and edit it before I spew it out. then again, how many posts have I made here with revisions to be made later?
But I do need to be working on a personal way of presenting the gospel. So what is the closest to me? Naturism.
Since I am starting the work of revising the article, "The Second Adam" (see Prayers Needed under my post above) it can help me articulate better the power of Jesus life, death and resurrection and how it applies to each one of us in a way we haven't traditionally thought of before.
I think I would be sensitive about that too, except for the fact that no matter what I do, God loves me anyway, enough to send his Son to die for my sins.
It's what I say to people a lot when asked how I am doing, "I'm doing all right in spite of my best efforts!"
But what is so neat about God is that not only does he love us "anyway", He loves us so much that the past is forgotten! We love "anyway" yet the past is put on a shelf to remind us that we should "love them anyway".
Our love for our children should be "I can NOT think of ANY reason to not love you and I'm certainly not going to look for any! And whatever it is in your life that is of great concern, then I am here to help you through because I love you! I may not agree with your choices, but you are my child and that is that!!"
Hi
I was thinking about this a few weeks ago. This illustration
came to mind: A National Geographics TV special showing the
prettiest nature scenes from our National Parks for an hour.
In each scene a clothed woman walks across the scene,
but says nothing and shows very limited emotion. Doesn't even
look at the scenery that is behind her. Those viewing the show
would pretty much have to view her as an object. While they
know she is a person, they learn so little about her that
their mind can't develope a personality for her.
So as ever one said, relationship is what changes that.
, so here it finally is...