Interesting how God uses being clothed with the preferred state of being pure, free from sin, and having eternal life, versus being unclothed as the horrible state of sin, corruption, mortality, and death:
I know that if my earthly house, or tent, is destroyed, I have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this house I groan, longing to be clothed with my heavenly dwelling, because when I am clothed, I will not be found naked. For while I am in this tent, I groan, being burdened, because I do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made me for this very purpose and has given me the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5:1-5)
I would let you know that so far, in the previous letters you have sent, you have not replied directly, but quoted scipture for the most part.
Very good. We appreciate those scriptures because they do point to the very things we believe.
First of all, why would Paul (the traditional writer of these verses) talk about groaning and "being found naked" and looking forward to being clothed?
Is he saying that he is physically naked and in need of clothes?
No, he was talking about his spiritual clothing, God's righteousness.
He is ready to die for his spiritual reward. He is willing to give up the physcial world, the physical tent, his body for Christ.
He is using an earthly analogy to show his desire for his spiritual calling "Now it is God who has made me for this very purpose..."
Nothing said to imply that being physically naked is a sin. That is so far from Pauls mind it's almost ludicrous to even associate it with that. Paul has so much more on his mind and heart to be worrying over a physical nude body.
We need to make sure our spiritual calling is sure, and the holy spirit is that "gaurantee" or "down payment".
The following reply after this will be from the emails sent.
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
The following is the orignal emails sent back and forth. I have sent one more email in respons, not shown here. Otherwise, complete with no changes (except where I changed "mot" to "not" in one sentence I wrote in the email) The email is in reverse according to the replies in order from most recent to begining.
To make more sense, you may want to start from the bottom and work up.
============ Begin Email Copy Starting with his most reply ===============
Interesting how God uses being clothed with the preferred state, being pure, free from sin, and having eternal life, versus being unclothed as the horrible state of sin, corruption, mortality, and death:
I know that if my earthly house, or tent, is destroyed, I have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this house I groan, longing to be clothed with my heavenly dwelling, because when I am clothed, I will not be found naked. For while I am in this tent, I groan, being burdened, because I do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made me for this very purpose and has given me the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5:1-5)
From: boyd allen <boydallen@yahoo.com>
To: MSN Hotmail <scb821@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Naturism
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
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It's nearly 2:30 am and I just got home from work. So
I'll reply to this later.
In the mean time, could you do me a favor and go to my
Forum at http://www.network54.com/Forum/83405 and lets
discuss this there. This is interesting and would make
a great topic. I'm thinking about copying it and
posting it there anyway.
Boyd
--- MSN Hotmail <scb821@hotmail.com> wrote:
---------------------------------
The old man is positionally dead in Christ, but
experiencially very much still alive which is why we
still must die and experience death, and which is why
we all sin every day in thoughts, words, and deeds!
We still live in our old man corrupting bodies of
death and sin. God's Word teaches us that in our
flesh dwells "nothing good" and that we are trapped in
"bodies of death" until we die and finally put on
incorruptible glory:
Romans 7
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am
carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do
not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not
practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I
do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it
is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but
sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that
is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is
present with me, but how to perform what is good I do
not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not
do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20
Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I
who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me,
the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the
law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see
another law in my members, warring against the law of
my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of
sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I
am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I
thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,
but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all
sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in
the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the
trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this
corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal
must put on immortality.
James 3
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers,
knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
You are in great peril for the error you have been
teaching to others, leading His little ones to sin!
Repent while you still can before it is too late! May
God have mercy on your soul and cause you to see,
believe, obey, and rejoice in His Truth.
---------------------------------
From: boyd allen <boydallen@yahoo.com>
To: MSN Hotmail <scb821@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Naturism
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:10:58 -0700 (PDT)
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Good try again.
Modest means "less" not "more". Look at the context
of the statement, not todays general rule.
Of course, the subject is not about nudity. Women
were not going around nude any more than they are
today. In fact, if anything, they were way over
dressed. The rich in that society, like any society,
tended to show off their wealth. The "wore" their
wealth. So much so that the poor were jealous. So
they were instructed to be "modest" about what they
wore. So they actually had to wear less, less fancy,
less jewelry, and show more propriety, humility,
showing service. If you read in that context, it
makes far more sense.
So a woman in a naturist environment to be nude, is
modest when done in a propert attitude adn showing
propriety.
And what of our parts that "seem to
be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we
think are less honorable we treat with special honor.
And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with
special modesty, while our presentable parts need no
special treatment." I think that says it by itself.
It "seems" to be weaker, yet they are "indisensable".
We "think" they are less honorable, we treat with
"special honor". THe parts that are "unpresentable"
are now treated wtih special modesty, while our
special parts need no special treatment.
Yes, we should put on the Lord Jesus Christ and not
let lust over take us. That is exactly what we do!
Very good! I love these verses, they say it all!
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that
he has cannot be My disciple.
Can you forsake your desire to be clothed in shame?
Can you forsake your clothing (all) for Him? Can you
forsake shame for Jesus? Can you forsake lust for the
desire for Christ? Can you put on Christ and leave the
worry of clothing to the world?
Are you going to continue to shame God's creation? Is
being nude necessarilly lust? Should we give in to our
lust and be forced to cover in shame?
Or should we view the body, the VERY image and
likeness of our Creator Himself as respectible,
humble, beautiful, a piece of art, and clothe it with
righteousness? Is what God created very good, or is
it evil? Should our lust overcome God's beauty?
Should our lust be stronger than God's spirit?
YES, the old nature is dead!! So why are you still
living as if you are still under your old nature??
When you look at your body as something to cover up in
fear and shame, are you still thinking like Adam?
That is our old nature! Just because you recognize
that we are of the old nature, that is when you throw
it away and embrace Christs nature! Not keep it
around forever! The reason you were covered up is
because you were under the enfluence of the old
nature! Now you are under the blood of Jesus and are
of the NEW nature, the NEW Man, The SECOND Adam! Don't
go back to the old way! That is what the world does!
Change the way you think, no longer of this world! We
are of the Second Adam!
As long as you think you are of the old man, you will
never see or recognize the beauty of the new Man,
Jesus.
Are we really required to "remove all pleasure"? Is
that what God really wants? As long as pleasure
replaces God, yes, we remove it, but if it glorifies
God, why should we?
Are we not allowed to be happy? Are we not allowed to
enjoy the pleasure of food? Are we not allowed to
enjoy the pleasure of sight such as a beautiful
landscape, sunset, sunrise, the stars, our wives, our
children? Many blind people would give anything to
have an opportunity to see what you and I see.
I'm not saying "LUSTING" after these things! No! I
dont' "lust" after people because they are nude! I
appreciate what God has done! "Man is so wonderfully
and fearfully made" says David.
"Glorify God with your whole body"
"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no
provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts." Yes!
Put on the Lord Jesus Christ! Don't make provisions,
(clothing, worry, fear, lust, shame, desire, hate,
love, etc) for the flesh (worldly things, not just the
physical body).
Put on the whole armor of Christ. Put on love, joy,
peace,patience, long suffering, faith, hope, courage,
forgiveness.
Let Jesus redeam your body. Satan has had enough
control over it! Satan makes play things out of our
bodies! Jesus redeamed my body to His Service to
glorify the Father. He lives in me, my mind, my
heart, my whole body, my whole life! My body is His
Temple! If it were bad, why would he make my body his
temple??
Let God say "it is very good" once again! Return to
the garden of Eden through Jesus Christ! The sword of
death has been removed! Jesus died for us, so we are
NO LONGER UNDER THE PENALTY OF DEATH PUT UPON ADAN AND
HIS DECENDANTS! GET THAT!!
The death penalty that was put upon Adam and his
decendants has been paid for by Jesus and we accept
that. Can you accept that?
Now bury that old man. Don't dig him up again! That is
a physical body that can lay to rest forever. It's
like going back to the law of Moses after you have
accepted Jesus Christ! Why would you want to do that?
Clothing does not save you. Clothing does not keep you
from lust. Clothing is not our savior. Jesus is.
Boyd
--- MSN Hotmail <scb821@hotmail.com> wrote:
---------------------------------
Timothy 2:9
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and
propriety...
The one verse above is all that is needed to know and
to do God's will. But here are some other related
verses to consider:
1 Corinthians 12:22-24
On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to
be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we
think are less honorable we treat with special honor.
And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with
special modesty, while our presentable parts need no
special treatment.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you
may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— 16 as
free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but
as bondservants of God.
Matthew 11:15
He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
God doesn't let everyone see and hear His Truth:
Romans 11:8
Just as it is written: “ God has given them a spirit
of stupor, Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,To this very day.”
Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud
overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of
the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I
am well pleased. Hear Him!”
Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no
provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires
to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up
his cross, and follow Me.
Luke 14:33
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that
he has cannot be My disciple.
Can you deny yourself your pleasure of being naked?
Can you fosake this pleasure to follow Christ? You
MUST forsake ALL if you want to follow Him and have
Him forever.
You may think your nakedness is not a lust problem for
you, but what about those who you cause to lust
because of your nakedness, or because of the nakedness
of those whom you have convinced to be naked? You've
already been warned about anyone who causes one of His
little ones to sin. Are you going to continue to
promote a lifestyle that can cause many of His little
ones to fall into sin? The old nature is dead,
positionally, "In Christ" at the cross, but
experientially we will not be seperated from it until
death. It is still very prone the sin of lust.
Therefore, we must not do anything to provoke lust in
the fallen sinful nature. We are to keep it in
submission, not allow it to lead us where it pleases.
Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from
this body of death?
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the
body, you will live.
1Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into
subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I
myself should become disqualified.
Here is the reply I gave before I saw that he had already posted here with the same information. So this is the latest reply from me.
========= Email Reply by Boyd =============
Interesting how it says that it's a heavenly dwelling,
not earthly dwellings. They are speaking in spiritual
terms, not literal physical.
Often, one has to speak in languages people
understand.
Being physcially nude is NOT what they are talking
about, and personally, I think you really know that.
What I find really intresting is that when God created
humanity in the first place, he not only created them
naked, he also left them naked, and then told:
1 Name all the animals
2 Take care of the garden,
3 Take rule of the earth
4 Have lots of children
5 Freely eat of the garden
6 Do not touch the Tree of good and evil
7 Do eat of the tree of life
And then promptly left them that way, while still
naked!
And then God said "It is VERY good"!
Of course, we all know man blew it! But eventually,
God, through Jesus, died for our sins, and then
brought us back to the original relationship He wanted
with man. We are spiritually back in God's presence
as Adam and Eve were in the Garden! We are no longer
blocked from His presence with the fear of death!
If that were the case, then we who are His, are no
longer in fear of death! We are no longer under the
penalty of Adam and Eve! We should no longer be
afraid or ashamed!
Fear has been conquored! What more do you want?? Be
like Adam and Eve and cover yourself up in shame
again? AGAIN??????
NO wonder we can't seem to get any further! We are
so busy living in shame and fear when Jesus said "Do
not fear, I have overcome the world". Just what part
of the old man (Adam) dying do we not understand?
Please, bury the old man! It's behind us now!
We are in Christ!
don't use spiritual symbolism as physical reality!
Paul was talking about our Bodies! Yes, by
comparison, our bodies are useless, are decaying, are
dying, but our spiritual bodies are our clothing, NOT
being clothed with physical rags!
We are clothed with righteousness! what does that look
like? What does it hide? What does it do physically?
So I am clothed with righteousness, now! We all
should be! So what does physical clothing do for me?
NOTHING!
Yes, it protects me in the cold, it protects me in
extreme situations where the physical body is in
danger, but that is all!
I need to start posting this. You need to get on my
Forum and do some real debating.
If you can't handle it, then I'll put it there myself!
Or you can stop here and end it.
God is my clothing, Satan encouraged us to hide our
physical bodies in fear, God said His creation (naked
at the time) was VERY GOOD!
We are created in Gods image! What part of Gods' image
are you ashamed of? What part of God are you ashamed
of??
Jesus had a naked body! Was Jesus body SIN??
See you on the Forum
========================= End ===============
Again, that "See you on the Forum" was before I knew he had posted. Sorry about that.
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
Interesting how 1 Corinthians 12:22-24 is always used to say that our physical body has some parts that are okay for "public viewing", and other parts that are not.
That's not what those verses are talking about!!!
Those verses are talking about differant members of the body of Christ- people!! Members of the church, not parts of our body...
Think about those verses in THAT contextr, and see how much more sense it makes...
Secondly, the part about needing to "remove all pleasure".
What about "Eat, drink, and be merry"?
What about Jesus coming that we may "have life to the fullest"?
What about Jesus going to a wedding party?
What about "Be of good cheer"?
What about thinking that God would like us to do something except be miserable all the time? I know it builds character, but come on!! Do you really think God wants His beloved children to have no enjoyment or pleasure while we're here on Earth?
The Bible says "In your freedom do not sin.", not "You aren't free to do that."
My first response would probably be to tell the guy to pull that stick out a few inches before he really hurts himself, but I guess that just wouldn't be very nice...
It gets tiring to listen to people who are so adamantly set to their own way of thinking that they won't even consider the fact that they might be wrong about something from time to time. One day they'll make a mistake, and them they'll know how the rest of us poor slobs live...
"My first response would probably be to tell the guy to pull that stick out a few inches before he really hurts himself, but I guess that just wouldn't be very nice...
It gets tiring to listen to people who are so adamantly set to their own way of thinking that they won't even consider the fact that they might be wrong about something from time to time. One day they'll make a mistake, and them they'll know how the rest of us poor slobs live..."
I understand that the gentleman has the best of intentions, and that it is probably out of love that he even comes here and gives us his perspective, but like so many other people it looks like he automatically assumes that being a nudist and being right with God are mutually exclusive.
That attitude angers and frustrates me, and sometimes I tend to push back too hard. For that I give my sincere appologies.
I see alot of people who quote the same verses that he did, about being clothed in our heavenly bodies, and groaning while in our earthly bodies, and for the most part those people miss the basic point of those verses.
When the author wrote about being unclothed in these verses, he was not talking about being physically naked- he meant being without God's rightousness. When he mentioned being clothed, again it meant being clothed *with God's rightousness* , not just (or even at all) being covered physically.
Naked does not automatically mean sinful, immoral, or unrightous, just as clothed does not automatically mean upright, moral, or rightous. The defining characteristics of any of these conditions are found in a person's heart, not in their dress, and I believe we deserve the right to have our characters and hearts better understood by a stranger before they condemn us as wrong.
"Naked does not automatically mean sinful, immoral, or unrightous, just as clothed does not automatically mean upright, moral, or rightous. The defining characteristics of any of these conditions are found in a person's heart, not in their dress, and I believe we deserve the right to have our characters and hearts better understood by a stranger before they condemn us as wrong" is very well written.
I have found naturism is very healthy in a number of ways. (1)It allows better circulation in the body. (2) The entire body gets an equal brush of wind (3) The blood pressure becomes lower. (4) For those who are diabetic / or borderline the number is reduced. (4) One is able to relax better either in regular doings or sleeping. (5) For those troubled with sexual arousal, this eventually goes away and one can enjoy what our creator wanted in the first place--the natural experience. You actually receive, as I did, a feeling of spiritual peace in the natural. When I prayed about it -- the answer was from the bible Where the prophets were stripped nude to speak for God, and the honoring of Him, Isiah is told to be naked for 3 years -- would God ask him to committ asin if nudity were wrong..
The response was it is in your soul and not what you package, You can have a guilty conscience and be nude with a bad feerling, or contrary feel at peace ion buff with a clear conscience.
For those of Catholic persuasion --as I am -- the Pope approves of nudism,thge same is true for looking at nudist pictures, even there arenudist priests. What is wrong -- really nothing.. the fear is only in your mind.
f
Even those whose life is far from sex find being natural comforting.
The holy people of the past
worked nude in a number of cases ---Peter in boat story where Jesus came.
Francis of Assissi walked around naked to show he was not affected by the things of the world and to imitate Christ. Jesus was naked on the cross as was the two thieves.. It is in your heart, not in your packaging. I can assure you that I am nude right now and sexual thoughts do not dominate my mind while in Mother Nature's best..
Steve, that is indeed an interesting Scripture. However, if the Lord were so concerned about physical nakedness, why is it that He told Isaiah to go "naked and barefoot three years"? (Isaiah 20:3) Why, when the Holy Spirit come upon King Saul as he went to capture David in Ramah, did the king strip completely? (I Samuel 19:18-24; the text makes it clear that not only Saul but all the "company of the prophets prophesying" (vs. 20) were naked "in like manner" (vs. 24). Furthermore, the people thought more of Saul's sudden prophetic abilities than of his nakedness.) Why was even Our Lord Jesus Christ careless about His own clothing during the Last Supper? (John 13:4-5; many modern translations indicate He left some kind of inner garment on, but the King James, following the Greek, says "He...laid aside his garments..." not "outer garments".) Why is the New Testament silent about the well-documented practice of baptism in the nude, or about Christians who visited public baths?
So it must not be physical nakedness that Paul was ashamed of, if indeed he was ashamed at all.
Also note the fact that Paul is speaking in worldly terms, that is, the world which is still cut off from God (as Adam and Eve were) so they are still under the enfluence of Satan and are still cursed with the fear of what God is and has made in his image. Or they pervert what God has made.
We as Christians are no longer cut off from God. Love has no fear, and we are not living in fear. We are no longer under the penalty of Adam and Eve. If we feel we are, then we deny what Jesus has done for us. We should not view the body the same way as the world does. Our eyes have been opened, but to what God reveals through the Tree of Life (which is now Jesus).
Physically, we can be clothed as much as the world yet not be clothed in righteousness. That is what the book of Revelation meant when it mentions that though we are rich and in need of nothing (physical riches) we are still poor, hungry and naked (spiritually speaking).
Analogies are taken only so far. Paul was talking to Christians, not as if they were physically naked, which they were not normally, but spiritually in need of clothing, God's righteousness. So he used an earthly (worldly, still in fear) example of heavenly things (righteousness, love, spiritual) to make sure they are clothed in righteousness, and not to worry about the physical things of this world, including clothing.
However, if someone is in need of clothing, then by all means, give it to them, even if you have to give them the shirt off your back, literally.
Boyd
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
From Boyd's post above: "Paul was talking to Christians, not as if they were physically naked, which they were not normally, but spiritually in need of clothing, God's righteousness. So he used an earthly (worldly, still in fear) example of heavenly things (righteousness, love, spiritual) to make sure they are clothed in righteousness, and not to worry about the physical things of this world, including clothing."
Hmmm... "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12) You're absolutely right, Boyd, that analogies can only go so far. And some of the Bible's metaphors and analogies regarding clothing have been taken too far. As my editor sister says, if more preachers were trained in literary criticism, we'd hear a lot less nonsense from the pulpits!
Steve, your post brings back a lot of not-so-good memories. I used to work with a man named Steve Baird at a once-large computer company in a northern suburb of the Twin Cities in Minnesota. I was a VERY active seeker then. I was deeply dissatisfied with the legalistic salvation-by-works religion I was taught. I was looking for something better than religion as I knew it.
The Steve Baird I knew back then kept a black leather Bible at work. He was always ready to engage in a philosophical/religious discussion and was an energetic person who lived outside the reality of my life and job. He (and his wife) seemed out of touch with people like me.
I said to myself, “I don’t want to be like him.” I didn’t want to exchange one set of do’s and don’ts for another, so I looked “elsewhere” to Eastern religions, New Age, etc., etc.
Fortunately God had already chosen me. It was not a matter of “if” I would become a believer but when and how, despite crummy-for-Christ Bible thumpers.
A lot of people associate nudity with sex (including Steve??). They can’t be nude without sexual purpose or thoughts. For those who do, being nude may well be lustful and therefore sinful.
What matters most? Being nude or what people do and their motives while nude? In other words, the outside or inside? Is it sinful to clean the gutters on my house while nude? Work in my garage nude? Grill dinner nude? I think you get the point… I have mild hyperhydrosis, but that probably doesn’t change your opinion.
I agree, that for many people, nudity (except in the doctor’s office, the shower, etc.) is associated with sex or lust. However, that is NOT true for everybody. Please do not prejudge me as one of those people.
One more question: Is being clothed required for salvation? (That is rhetorical question. We all know it is not.)
Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Why are you making this provision for the desires of your flesh when God commands you to make no provision for the flesh.
Why do you even need to be naked if it is not the lust of your flesh driving you to be naked? Christ said go into the world with the gospel and are you going to waste time looking for ways and places to entertain your naked flesh?
Can you deny yourself this fleshly desire for Christ? He says you must be willing to forsake ALL your desires if you are to have Him. If you can't deny yourself this fleshly desire to be physically naked, then it is an idol in your life.
If your being physically naked causes one of His little ones to sin, which would be very likely since we all carry around unredeemed fallen flesh which constantly lusts after sin, then God says:
Matthew 18:6
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mark 9:42
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
Luke 17:2
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
You are tempting God and playing with fire, Eternal Fire!
If I am wrong, then no harm in keeping my clothes on, but if you are wrong, then millstone around the neck and thrown into the sea for tempting His little ones to lust and even worse for teaching them to sin in this way and leading them to cause others to lust after them!
This is so dreadfully serious. I hope you repent quickly and beg God for His mercy before His patience runs out with you. Quit twisting His Word to suit your lust. God made clothing for Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness. My Spirit became born again when God joined His Spirit to mine, but sin is still living in my body and is alway trying to assert itself. My body has not been redeemed and is still corrupting away like Adam and Eve's bodies were. My body still needs to be covered just as God provided clothing for Adam and Eve. When I am in Heaven and my body has been redeemed and changed into an immortal spiritual body, then I will not be able to sin again and will have no need for any clothing. But while I am still so prone to sin and lust, I must keep my body clothed and in submission to my God and my born-again spirit.
Does the Bible actually say why God made clothing for Adam and Eve? I've never seen the reasons stated specifically anywhere.
You say it was to cover their nakedness, while many other people say that it was for protection from the new environment they were sent out into.
Without any empirical evidence to justify either position, how can you clain that your view is any more accurate that ours?
Second, how is it catering to a lust of the flesh to be naked around the house, as in the examples that you were given? Is it lustfull not to dress after a shower when there is nobody else there to see you?
And is it lustful to be naked around other people? I find it less lustful to see a person totally naked, say, at a beach or a resort, than to go to a similar place where bathing suits are required, and see people walking around in clothing that emphasizes the very parts they call indecent, and that brings them into much greater focus than if the person was naked. Aside from the beach, public places aren't much better, and in many cases total nakedness would probably be less attention drawing than what is worn.
If it is wrong to be naked around a person other than a spouse, why did God command Isaiah to go naked for three years? Why were old testament prophets known for their nakedness? Why was Paul fishing naked with his companions after Christ's cruxifiction? There are plenty of other examples, but these three are well known, and nobody has yet been able to explain them away.
Yes, the Bible says to make no provisions for the flesh, if it is expressly for the purpose of indulging lustful behavior, but you imply that all nakedness is lustful, and that simply isn't correct.
It is quite possible for a mature person to be naked, or even to see another person naked, without it being lustful. Apparently you cannot reconcile this possibility in your own mind, so for you it very well may be wrong for you to be naked around others or to see them naked, but don't make the assumption that your own shortcomings are applicable to everybody else. There are things that it is acceptable for you to do that it would not be for me to do, and vice versa.
To me, since the Bible makes no clear stand on the issue of nakedness outside of when it involves immoral behavior (and the two are not synonymous), it would appear to be a point of personnal freedom- for some it is allowable, and for others it is not, depending on their faith.
I appreciate the fact that you are concerned about our "behavior", and that it is our of caring that you make the efforts that you have here, but to be truely effective I feel you will need to do more than quote scripture. Don't get me wrong- I believe scripture to be a perfect guide in life, and completely accurate and inspired by God, but you can't just throw a verse mentioning morality at somebody without being able to discuss with them your thoughts, feeling, and interpretations on what is and what isn't moral verses their feeligs on the same subject. You can't make the mistake of assuming that your definations of morality are completely correct, or that everybody will understand the verses you quote as you do. "Let us come and reason together..." You always need to be open to discussion, and not to mearly "hit and run". Who knows, you might just learn something sometime.
The people here have researched this topic in great depth, and it is possible that some of them may have a deeper, and possible more accurate, understanding of the wording used in scripture where nakedness is concerned, and it's associated context. Some of the most devout Christians that I know are nudists, and that list includes several pastors.
Explain how you will answer God for provoking others to sin because of your lust for exposing your nakedness. Maybe you aren't provoked to lust by the nakedness of others (although I highly doubt it since I truly believe that it is your own lust that provokes you to be naked around others), but how are you going to prevent your nakedness from provoking the sin which dwells in every human being and which God has warned you not to provoke less it be better for you to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around your neck? Is your desire to be naked something you are not willing to surrender and give up for Christ? If you are not willing to give up ALL for Him, then you cannot be His diciple:
Luke 14:33
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
Galatians 5:16
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
1 Peter 2:11
Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,
1 Peter 4:2
that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
2 Peter 2:10
and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
2 Peter 2:18
For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
First of all, I really don't need all the biblical referances to understand your point. One or two will do nicely. After that I can either look them up, or go by those I already know. As I said before, some of us around here do know their scripture pretty good. Most of the referances you give are concerning actively enticing somebody to sin, anyway, which is not what we advocate, as I'm discuss later.
I have two answers to your question, but before we get to that... Who are you to say what my motovations are?! "...although I highly doubt it since I truly believe that it is your own lust that provokes you to be naked around others..." You don't know me; you have never even met me. The only thing that you have to go on are the fact that I'm a nudist, and your own assumptions. You have no right to tell me what my motivations are, any less than you have the right to tell me if I'm saved or not. Those things are between me and God, and all you have the right or responsibility to do are take me at my word up until the point that I act differantly from what I say (James 4:12).
I simply prefer to be naked; that's how I am; that's how I feel comfortable. Most times when I am around other people I do dress, contrary to my own wishes and confort, for the sake of their own. When I do get the chance to socialize with other people who feel the same way regarding nakedness that I do, I take advantage of that opportunity. It's nice to be able to be comfortable around people who feel as I do, or who don't mind if I am naked in their presence.
You have the right to your own opinion as to why I do what I do, but be very careful not to judge a person or a situation you know next to nothing about.
Now, as for causing others to sin.
I agree that it is possible for a person to knowingly cause others to sin by leading them to things that they aren't mature enough to handle, or by promoting or doing sinful things in their presence. We try extremely hard not to do that, and actively encourage that each person search themselves to discover why it is that they want to be a nudist or associate with those who are. As Paul wrote about we are freed in Christ, but we need to be careful as to the welfare of others as we engage in those freedoms. I believe we do that. I do not intentionally provoke others to sin. In fact, I go to great lengths to try and make sure that the times and places where I am naked make those chances as slight as possible.
Also, James stated that each man "... is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." Simple, non-sexual nakedness is not inherently immoral or lustful, and if a person is lusting after me or somebody else here simply because they are naked, I believe that shows a deeper problem on their part than our nakedness. If we learn that somebody is having these types of problems, of coures we need to refrian from being naked in their presence , but that does not mean that we need to not be naked at any time,or in any place. I don't believe that we can be accountable for the actions of everybody around us at all times.
Our physical bodies are a gift from God, and like all gifts they have the ability to be abused. Another gift that God has given us is food and drink, and we are told to enjoy those things, but to not let that enjoyment lead us to drunkenness or gluttony.
When Jesus turned water into strong wine at the wedding party, He had to have known that there was the possibility that His gift could be misused. The words of one of the guests indicates that there were already drunken guests present, and yet Jesus still gave the wine.
Was it wrong for Him to give the wine? No, it couldn't be, because Jesus never sinned. The temptation for others to misuse His gift to them did not lessen the goodness of the gift itself, nor did it necessitate that He refrain from giving the gift. He did a good thing. What the others chose to do after that was between them and God.
Likewise, simple, chaste, non-sexual nakedness, with no ulterior motivations and in the proper context and environment, should not be condemned as causing someone to lust.
I would like very much for you to try and get to know us and understand who we are and why we do the things that we do before you condemn us outright. You may not agree with us, and you may never engage in any nakedness outside if your shower or bedroom, but if you honestly listen to us, believing our motivations when we explain them to you, you would probably stop thinking that our choices are as misguided as you sem to believe that they are. But, you'll never be able to make that decision for yourself until you decide to listen to us for a moment.
Nudity as a command from God -- where is your prayer in decision to be nude?
September 5 2006, 5:05 PM
If in doubt, pray!... Where is prayer in the decision to be nude?.
I personally know of one member of my family that worked nude from their home for years. Their apartment was so hot this was the only manner of survival. My spiritual advisors have recommended nudity to conduct business wherever possible.
As to how much nudity-- 24/7...the answer was very simple: when you are in your own home, clothing are not necessary for your family is in reality one flesh. As the matter of sleeping nude -- what do you need clothes for anyway.. I was by far the scrupulous and concerned everything was a sin for many years -- I could not even take a bath without towels draped around me. What a feeling of peace to be free from clothes at home and at the office whever possible. While I am a Catholic of the Maronite rite, which emphasis doing good to our fellow men and the community as opposed to scaring people to fear God,I sincerely believe the children should be taught buff is good from days of last diaper. In fact Gypsies let their kids be nude til almost puberty.
When I made a decision to be in the buff on saturday morning in my home office, I found that my assistant manager of my radio station KTXN FM was perfectly okay with it. He told me he-- a pentecostal minister -- is in buff at the house in the evenings.
Owing to the number of people dying of cancer, being able to speed up of blood circulation helps a great deal to cut down on blood pressure, diabetic number, etc. For this reason I recommen nudism for my workers when possible. This was not just my idea but God's who answered my prayers about it. As to nude baptisms, I have seen them and what a feelin of Holy Ghost comes upon the congregation when they wittness these. What I said before it is in one's heart, not on his skin. Now one word of advice -- stay away from those wrong type of nudity--entertainments -- acts, books, magazine, etc. that are sexually intentended. This is a case of bad packaging and bad intent --morally wrong.
Recently I had been on a visit to a family member who is a single mother of a 15 year old boy. I had gotten my clothes quite dirty cutting grass and the washing machine was readily available. She asked me to disrobe in front of her... what a challenge! I did not. Reluctantly I ,in private, asked her if she minded my nudity in front of her -- she said that her experience of living in the country there was no concern for appearance or nudity of family members. The next time to disrobe happened and I found a peaceful feeling and no curious eyes. In fact her son has on several occasions been buff in front of me before.. what A freedom. So when I will visit her and her son in the future, I will be in buff and hope they may take up the idea as well. Pray God remove any occasion of sin in this lifetyle and he will.
Coming from a fear of nudity to a winderful world of peac as God wanted usa to live. If you let God direct you you will find a peaceful life lived to the fullest as God wanted us to live it.. There is one rule however, you have to live your life otherwise as a good belieiver and then God rewards you with being able to bew as the Garden of Eden was and
some re-capturing of life as he wanted us to lead it.
IN BIBLICAL TIMES WORK WAS PERFORMED NUDE BECAUSE THERE WAS ONLY ONE TUNIC PER PERSON -- REFERENCE BIBLICAL STATEMENT TO RETURN ONE'S TUNIC BEFORE SUNSET AS THIS MAY BE THE ONLY ONE THEY HAVE TO SLEEP IN... TODAY THERE ARE PLACES IN FRANCE WHERE MEN ARE NUDE IN THE WORK PLACE -- E.G. BREWERIES.
TO A DEDICATED NUDIST AS MYSELF,lOOKING AT OTHERS NAKED HAS THE SAME AFFECT AS ONE THAT LOOKS OUT OVER MOUNTAINS AND/OR A VERY LOVELY SCENE... YOU SEE THE HANDSIWORK OF TYHE lORD IN EVERYTHING.. THIS IS THE REASON THAT NUDE SUGGESTIVE MAGAZINES ,BOOKS, AND MOVIES ARE WRONG..THEY LEAD TO MIS USE OF gOD'SCREATION. I CAN ASSURE YOU GOD IS IN HIS HANDIWORK. AS I SAID BEFORE I HAVE TAKEN A LOT OF PRAYER ASKING FOR DIRECTION -- TO BE NATURAL AND/OR NOT NATURAL. THE ANSWER IS ONCE AGAIN, IT IS IN YOUR HEART, NOT WHAT IS IN YOUR SKIN..
DRAW A COMPARISION...WHEN YOU GO TO THE GROCERY STORE TO BUY CORNFLAKES, YOU LOOK AT WHAT IS IN THE BOX -- NOT THE PACKAGE...YOU MUST PRAY BEFORE EVERY DECISION, ASK FOR CONFIRMATIONS FROM NON INTERESTED PEOPLE -- GOD WILL GIVE IT TO YOU.
PEOPLE GET HUNG UP AS TO ATTIRE TO GO TO SERVICES..OUR AUSTIN, TEXAS MARONITE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ONLY CONCERNED WE DO NOT STAND OUT IN ATTIRE. ONE COULD EASILY BE OF THE WRONG ATTIRE AND DRAW ATTENTION -- ONE WHO IS DRESSED IN A COSTUME FOR AN OLD WESTERN PLAY WITH A GUN AND BOOTS -- YET SHORTS ARE PERFECTLY OKAY. WE AGAIN BELIEVE THAT IT IS WHAT IS INSIDE--NOT WHAT EVERYONE SEES THAT MATTERS. ESSENTIALLY THE SAME STANDARDS EXIST IN VICTORIA, TEXAS, MY HOME FULLTIME WITH A FORMER BUDDHIST PRIEST -- A JEWEL UN RECOGNIZED. HIS SERMONS OR HOMILYS ARE ALL AROUND WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR NEIGHBOR -- NOT TO BE AFRAID OF GOD. THIS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE TURNS EDUCATED PEOPLE -- SUCH AS MYSELF -- OFF. GOOD EXAMPLE, GOD AS WE PERCEIVE HIM IS HOW WE WILL FIND HIM ON JUDGEMENT.
TATOOS ON ONE'S BODY ARE OFFENSIVE FOR THE SAME REASON THAT ONE DOES NOT DEFACE PUBLIC BUILDINGS-- AS OUR BODIES ARE THE PUBLIC BUILDINGS OF THE LORD.
CLOTHING IS RELATIVE AS WELL... IN AFRICA THERE IS A SCHOOL THAT A CATHOLIC RELIGIOUS ORDER OPERATES WHERE CHILDREN UP TO 15 ARE BUFF ALL THE TIME. IS THIS WRONG? CERTAUNLY NOT. IN THE SAME WAY THE NEW CITY OF NATURA, FLORIDA WILL BE A NAKED CITY AS ARE SEVERAL IN FRANCE, ITALY, AND SPAIN -- CATHOLIC AREAS.
My family has seven medical doctors an nnumerous nurses. If you live at all you find the human anatomy is there -- from nursing children, to caring for prople. Personally I found that I just have to trust God and ask for special protection if one feels the need when an occasion of these comes up. What about taking communal showers in physical education class or in military barracks.
THIS COMES AS A SHOCK TO A LOT OF PEOPLE-- BUT DANGER FROM NUDITY GOES AWAY FAST. MY BODY, WHICH GOD CREATED AS A TEMPLE OF THE HOLY GHOST, IS LIKE EVERY OTHER BODY OF PEOPLE OF MY SEX.. SO WHAT IS THERE TO BE CONCERNED ABOU?
iN PSYCHOLOGY ONE LEARN'S THAT ONE RELAXES IN TRHEV NUDE AND IN THE LONG RUN WE FIND OUSELVES UNDER LESS TENSION.
DO YOUY KNOW OF ANOTHER WAY TO GET THERE?
AYBE LESS CASNCER AS WELL.
My family has seven medical doctors an nnumerous nurses. If you live at all you find the human anatomy is there -- from nursing children, to caring for prople. Personally I found that I just have to trust God and ask for special protection if one feels the need when an occasion of these comes up. What about taking communal showers in physical education class or in military barracks.
THIS COMES AS A SHOCK TO A LOT OF PEOPLE-- BUT DANGER FROM NUDITY GOES AWAY FAST. MY BODY, WHICH GOD CREATED AS A TEMPLE OF THE HOLY GHOST, IS LIKE EVERY OTHER BODY OF PEOPLE OF MY SEX.. SO WHAT IS THERE TO BE CONCERNED ABOU?
iN PSYCHOLOGY ONE LEARN'S THAT ONE RELAXES IN TRHEV NUDE AND IN THE LONG RUN WE FIND OUSELVES UNDER LESS TENSION.
DO YOUY KNOW OF ANOTHER WAY TO GET THERE?
AYBE LESS CASNCER AS WELL.
Why are you making this provision for the desires of your flesh when God commands you to make no provision for the flesh."
You seem to insist that being nude is being lustful. Are we making provisions for the flesh when we clothe it? Are we making provisions for the flesh when we eat good food that we enjoy? Are we making provisions for the flesh when we bathe?
Did you know that in the middle ages, bathing became almost non-exisitant because they did not want to "make provisions for the flesh"? Ever hear of the black plague?
Did you know that some people are healthier naked than in clothes? Are we to abandon all common sense to avoid the "mights" and "maybes" of our unfounded fears? Love has no fear.
Jesus said we should not lust, but he didn't qualify the the object of lust. A nude person in and of itself is not lustful. In fact, some nude people are so far removed from "lustful" it's scary!
Kevin is right. There is no where in the bible to explain why we wear clothing. Not a word. Yet it does say we should not be gluttons. Are you a glutton? Are you guilty of other vices such as over eating, drinking too much (no, alcohol is not a sin either) or even self righteousness?
Jesus drank wine, and he was probably baptised naked, in public! But not a glutton or drunkard. He ate well with the sinners, and drank their wines. He probably saw more naked people in one year than you do in a life time. He probably healed many that were naked and never said a word about their clothing or a lack of them. Now he may took care of their needs by giving to them what they needed, including clothing, but doubt he told them they were going to hell.
We can be way too judgmental and hard on others without understanding why we are here. We can get too legalistic. Talk about twisting verses around. God said what he created is very good. You say we are twisting the verses around by implying that included naked Adam and Eve. Sorry about that. Maybe you are right. What God created is evil, and should never be seen. Jesus really didn't die for our sins and our sins are not forgiven after all. I thought that is what the bible says, but hey, who wants to "twist" that around?
Sure, we shouldn't lust. So don't. (Does the bible say to not lust?) But it does NOT say that what God creatd is evil. Now what we DO with our bodies can be evil, including wearing clothes if done so in the wrong way.
We can lust wearing clothes! Or are you deaf when it comes around to hearing people talk at work? (I'll be she looks hot in a bikini!)
Oh, thats ok, she is dressed, so that doesn't matter....right?
...Boyd mentioned to you that some people are healthier naked than they are in clothes. As the regular forum readers know, I am one of those people. So here I go with my question that usually has a critic stretching for any answer that they can give, (if they bother to give one at all) but not an answer that actually addresses the issue. I have a rare skin condition that falls under the diagnosis of psoriasis, if you know anything about psoriasis, it only effects about 1% of lighter skined people. (whites or white mixed races) The doctor has told me that to keep my skin healthy I most sunbath and/or use a tanning bed frequently, and in my case that means nude. It is believed that one of the causes of psoriasis is a vitamin D deficiency. From my experience I have learned that in addition to the medical treatment of nude sunbathing it is best if I refrain from wearing clothing too much, it is best that I sleep nude without any coverings at all. This means that for the health of my skin I must be nude more than I'm clothed on a daily basis.
We all know that nothing happens without God allowing it to happen, that doesn't mean that everything that is is God's will, but that He allowed it. So God allowed my condition to be. The best, safest and most effective treatment is found in nature, meaning God Himself provided a treatment for my condition among others. If it is wrong to be nude outside of sexual relations and showers, why would God allow a condition to come on one of His children, provide a treatment for it, and then call it a sin to use nature (sun and air) to keep the condition under control?
You have asked the question "Can you deny yourself this fleshly desire for Christ?" and this question reads diferent to me than your intentions. In context of this discussion and in light of my condition that question reads as follows; "Can you neglect your health for Christ?" The problem with the very idea of such a question should be obvious! It's like asking if you would be willing to go without food for Christ? and I mean more than just fasting, more like fasting to just shy of death. I assume that you would feel that to be a rediculous demand.
Technically it can be said that I'm not a nudist, but a person that needs to be nude. This was the case before my participation into the social nudity scene, and was the issue that brought me and my family into social nudity. After all I have not seen anywhere in God's word where we are to live solitare lives for any reason, but to engage the world spreading the gospil. If Christians are not permitted to be nude and take the Gospil to the nudist's who will?
What would Jesus say is more profitable, to waste SO MUCH time talking about and making plans for my physical flesh to be naked or to go into this evil sin cursed world where people are spiritually naked, enslaved to the lusts of their flesh, and to show them the way of escape by becoming clothed in the righteousness of Christ?
I do understand where you are coming from. My flesh is the same as all other flesh. We're all from the same parents and are all infected with the same disease of sin living in us. The sin living in me lusts to walk naked around this world. I have been to nude beaches and my fallen flesh has intensely loved every minute of it. My lust has driven me to those places and would drive me there in a heartbeat today to waste time and indulge my flesh if I did not, by the power of God's Spirit living in me, beat it into submission to Christ and His holy desires for me.
I also suffer from psoriasis. I get great relief from Elocon cream. Have you tried it? I think it is a steroid cream. It is by prescription and works fast but the results only last a few days. I use it sparingly as rashes appear, they quickly clear up, but usually return a few days later.
What plans do we need to make, Steve? I slept in the nude last night; when I got up this morning I stayed naked into the shower and through cooking and eating breakfast; in fact, I'm naked right now as I type this. Far from "wasting time," I saved a good fifteen minutes of putting clothes on only to take them off again. Two days ago I went down to a hot spring, something I like to do, clothed or naked; yet not having to wring a suit out every time I came out of the water saved a good half-hour that I spent soaking, playing volleyball, or fellowshipping with new friends. I found when I got there that I had forgotten to bring a towel--yet the warm breeze dried me in five minutes whenever I got out, so that I didn't even need it! Swimming and soaking are legitimate activities for Christians, clothed or not; it's just so much easier and more comfortable when we don't have to deal with swimsuits! And before you say it, lust for sex never came into my mind that day.
I suppose naturism could take over my life, yet I have neither the time nor the money to spend in the nude, and unlike some others here I do not live in a nudist resort. *sticks out tongue at Jon-Marc* lol So I just live in my skin when I can, at home and when with others who understand and share my comfort with nudity.
"And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these." --Matthew 6:28-29
scripture twisting - why didn't you quote then next verse?
September 5 2006, 11:25 PM
30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not MUCH MORE CLOTHE YOU, O you of little faith?
Re: scripture twisting - why didn't you quote then next verse?
September 6 2006, 12:09 PM
Well, perhaps I made a slight error in not quoting the next verse. But in context, Jesus classes clothes with food and drink. Now, we need food and drink to live, just as we need clothes in winter to live; yet we don't eat or drink all the time.
Yes, He will clothe us--but His preferred garments are not our own rags, but rather His righteousness. "...not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array: But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." (I Timothy 2:9-10)
...the scripture really isn't about clothes, food or drink, but faith in knowing that God will take care of your needs, even if naked. God is not about the clothes the food or the drink. He wants us to think of his kingdom, his righteousness, and to build our relatioinship with God. Not worry about the things of this world.
Now again, we shouldn't get over obsessed about being nude either, but at least we have more time to do other things, of God or of man, if not spending all our time, money and energy on clothing.
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
It starts out with "Someone once told me that I go through a lot of trouble to go nude...." so I made this reply. You should read it. It works well with God's command to take care of the earth!
I agree competely with your thoughts, but read my two responses today..I have been in the public for 40 years nad this showing of buff living style is a healthy way to go.. God told me very clearly "It is what is in yoour heart and soul, notwhat is on your skin as outer packaging.
Some styles are more suggesting sin than buff any way......
The first time I was nude in my home a feeling of peace came over me unlike anything else in my life experiences.
Sleeping nude is nothing either sin nor good -- in fact nudism is not of itsel either-- it is what you do with it.. by the way nudism is not one big sex orgy.. quite to the contrary -- read 1 Samuel 19:25 and Isiah 20 for basis of my statements.
I am a 65 year old ever married. I feel there are a lot of people out there who are naturists and just do not like to admit it.. Maybe by coming out with my experiences, someone else might be helped...
"God told me very clearly "It is what is in yoour heart and soul, notwhat is on your skin as outer packaging."
Rev 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
But in this case, Steve, the message Joe received agrees in both letter and spirit with I Samuel 16:7: "...for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."
Steve, it has become apparent that your main concern with social nudity ("nudism" or "naturism" or whatever you call it) is that it will lead those who practice and observe it into strong sexual temptation, which will lead to the sin of lust. That's understandable! Our culture has conditioned us to consider nakedness a prelude to sex. But this has come about solely because of our culture's insistence that adults remain clothed in each other's presence at all other times. Can you not see this? We only get naked when we're about to do sex; therefore we associate sex with nudity.
But what if we were to get naked at other times that had nothing to do with sex?
For this is what nudists and naturists do. Our gatherings are not orgies. In fact, the conversation and activities are little different from those at an average church social. We have broken the conditioned link between nudity and sex, and have found that it was false to begin with.
But as I said, I understand your fear that nakedness leads unavoidably to lust. That was my main concern five years ago when I began to read what the Bible says about nakedness, provoked by stumbling onto a Christian nudist web site whose statement of belief was so much like my own church's that I was compelled to believe that these, too, were saved, sanctified, dedicated Christians. I found almost immediately that, far from being a cover for sexual perversity, nudism was a deliberate attempt to disassociate simple nudity from eroticism. Nowhere was this made more plain than in the stories told by several men who said that nudism was directly responsible for their healing from addictions to pornography.
Since I have become a naturist I have found that, instead of leading me into sexual immorality, perversion, or uncontrollable lust, regular experiences with social nudity actually reduce the desire for these things. Becoming accustomed to seeing nakedness openly means that I can look at a naked woman--yes, even a young, beautiful one!--without any thought of taking her to bed. Far from "leading me into sin," naturism has led me out of temptation and delivered me from this evil. Praise His Name! And since it has happened to me, a man with normal desires and fears concerning women, it is potentially the birthright of every Christian.
This is why Jesus did not institute a dress code when He said, "Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28) And, "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are thy that defile the man." (Mark 7:15) No, not even the sight of a handsome member of the opposite sex! Lust is not of the eyes; it's of the heart. Social nudity does not evoke sin; experienced rightly, it purifies our hearts.
Those who are not ready, or those still convinced that nudity equals sexual temptation, may do well to avoid nudism for a while. But the Lord did not intend for any of His followers to remain weak. "Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (II Peter 3:18) He has convinced me that mudism is not sin, but rather a greater experience of His grace that has helped me avoid many sins. "This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." (Psalm 118:23)
Have you really looked at all those Scriptures, Steve? I have, and they're a mixed bag, to say the least. Saul stripped off his clothes AFTER the Spirit of the Lord had come upon him, "in like manner" as all the rest of that company of prophets; it seems to have been an accepted custom for prophets to prophesy in the nude in those days, so much accepted that the Israelites didn't even comment on it but rather on Saul's sudden prophetic gifts. Isaiah went "naked and barefoot" for three years at the Lord's command just to make a prophetic point! Does the Lord EVER command someone to sin? Observe, too, that in the Ezekiel and Hosea passages nakedness is part of "the harlot's" punishment, perhaps even an essential part. And in the Habakkuk verse, the woe is not on him who becomes drunk and naked, but rather on him who leads him to do so; this is not a sober, voluntary nakedness like Isaiah's or ours, but more along the line of "Girls Gone Wild."
And "clothing the naked," in the Bible, is listed along with feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, healing the sick, freeing prisoners unjustly imprisoned, and the like; there is no shame in being hungry, thirsty, sick, or imprisoned without cause, nor in being naked because you literally have nothing to wear. Clothing, here, is shelter, not a shame-based necessity. (Food is good, but we don't eat all the time, do we? )
It was just such a study that led me to conclude that God sees nothing wrong with simple, non-erotic, voluntary nudity.
If this is the same Steve Baird I knew 20 years ago, then I STILL don't want to be like you, even more so. If you are a different Steve Baird, then I CERTAINLY don't want to be like you either.
Steve, you categorically lumped all the visible participants of this Forum with a variety of sexual deviants. You projected the sexual lusts of many (and admitantly yourself) onto us. You implicitly accused us of intentional indiscriminant exposure of our bodily selves onto others (a GROSS judgement error on your part).
The first reference to Nakedness you posted was Gensis 2:25. I am completely exposed to my godly wife as much as God enables me to be, inside and OUT. I am not ashamed to be nude in front of my wife because my motives and intentions are pure.
I recommend the book, "The World According To God". I don't think it is being printed any longer, but I'm sure you can get a used copy if you want to. One of the underlying themes of the book is that everything has a divine design and that consciously living any part of life as God designed it with conscious and expressed recognition and praise for that design is a form of worship.
That is what I believe is the spirit of the vast majority if not all of the active participants in this Forum. I frequently thank God for the shame he lifted from my shoulders and the deliverance from pornography he brought through naturism and this Forum.
Do some people stumble on this Form seeking support for their lusts? Probably, but they don't hang around for long because they become disappointed in the lack of sexual content and confirmation of their lusts they seek.
What we appear to have here is an example of Matthew 7:1-5 and Luke 6:41-42. You never asked us anything that would reveal our fruits of the Spirit - things we do aside from daily routines we do without clothes. You also assume that we are obsessed and preoccupied with the pursuit of nakedness. Yet another GROSS judgement error on your part. So, would you like to know about the church we built and support in an impoverish community in the Dominican Republic?
You lost all respect and credibility with me and (I suspect all) of the active participants of this Forum. Let me know what you want to get personal and have an open conversation.
We are to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ, which I am. I have never liked wearing clothes and have always preferred being nude. I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour on May 18, 1963 at the age of 17. I have been active in churches in every position except that of pastor. God blessed me with a great singing voice which I used for nearly 40 years to praise and glorify Him until age and sickness prevented me from being able to do that any more. I continue to praise Him, because He is worthy.
I have been a member of 4 nudist resorts and lived in 2 including the one in which I live now. I'm retired, a dad and grandpa, and God has taken away my body shame and allowed me to live a life free from clothes when they aren't necessary. Living in Florida in a nudist resort, clothes are seldom necessary. Lust never enters into the picture for me. I have never had sex with a woman to whom I wasn't married and never desired it. I have a freedom in Christ that most Chriatians have never found, freedom from guilt and shame, freedom from lust, and freedom to enjoy life naturally the way I believe God intended when he created Adam and Eve and left them naked. They sinned and disobeyed God and ended up being clothed, but I don't believe that was ever God's plan. It IS possible to return to those days of innocence when we live in Christ and let the Holy spirit lead the way. Nudity is a non-issue with God. He is more concerned with us being clothed in the righteousness of Christ and being lead by His Spirit. Much scripture that speaks of the shame of nakedness is speaking of the nakedness of sin and its shame and not the nakedness of the body.
No one answered my question about what Jesus would find more profitable?
September 5 2006, 11:21 PM
No one answered my question about what Jesus would find more profitable?
Repent and flee from the wrath soon to come!
2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[e] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
Based on your fire and brimstone posts, we are going to Hell for not staying clothed. In other words, we do not always wear clothes, so we are not saved.
You seem to be preaching a different gospel than the Gospel of grace and faith in Jesus Christ.
In Galations 1:9, Paul says, "As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"
You don't know any of our salvation stories or any evidence of the fruits of the Spirit in our lives, etc.
You have shown me that you are one of the proud, self-righteous, confrontational, holier-than-thou "Christians" that turn so many seekers away from Jesus Christ. You make evangelism just that much more difficult for those of us with a heartfelt and tender love for the lost.
It takes a lot of time and energy to repair the damage people like you do in our culture, so I am not going to exspend any more on you. This is my last post to you.
Is it loving to teach the lost to follow their fleshly desires which will lead them straight to Hell? Or is it more loving to warn them to deny their fleshly desires, forsaking them in exchange for an infinitely better desire named Jesus who gave His naked flesh for the eternal pleasure of His sheep?
Luke 14:33
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
Is giving up our fleshly desires asking too much in exchange for all we receive in Christ?
1 Corinthians 9
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
It is much more loving to read our words with an open heart before assuming that, because we like being naked before God and each other, we are engaging in sin.
What is more profitable, to close your mind off to the possibility that we may be correct in what we say, or to, regardless of differances of opinions, welcome us as fellow believers?
Close-mindedness has never been a halmark of the righteous. Jesus had a few choice words for the close-minded, legalistic rulers of his day, but as versed as you are at scripture you should be able to find those on your own.
I'm with 80Vette: you stead-fastly refuse to engage us in real conversation, instead chosing to simply, and very wrongly, conclude that there absolutely no way that we aren't anything but a group of helplessly lost or misguided sinners.
I truely feel sorry that you have such a stiff, stagnant view of both us and our Lord.
You have no desire to learn from or about us, and you do nothing but condemn us; without just cause if you would take the time to listen.
You won't hear anything that we have to say, and have refuted every explanation that we have given you.
I have come to the conclusion, sadly, that there is nothing to learn from your rigid self-righteousness, and I have nothing further to say to you.
This will be my last post to, or about you. It just isn't worth the time.
I truely hope that God will bless you with some understanding of us at some point in the future.
Thank you, Terry, but I don't think my words will do any good. I can't understand why anyone who believes God created the human body can believe He considers it to be sinful. God looked down on ALL that He had created, and it was VERY GOOD. ALL includes the two naked people in the Garden. If being nude among other people (and especially letting children see you nude) is sinful, then God commanded Isaiah to sin. That is against God's nature, and just doesn't happen.
God's peace is flowing like a river to nudists..praise the Lord...
September 6 2006, 3:49 PM
I totally agree with you. The peace that is beyond all understranding is a driving part of the Christian nudist lifestyle. Hhealth is just one of the many side additional gifts...lower blood pressure,lower diabetes number, increased circulation...Thanks be to God.. you have hit the nail on the head..Joe Tibiletti and Don Castle..bare for God..
And before you say it, lust for sex never came into my mind that day.