Steve Baird had ceased to engage in dialog with us. Boyd did right to stop him from further confrontation.
Some of Steve's comments, as unfair as they are, do typify much of the criticism leveled at Christians who happen to be naturist in their outlook. So as a source of "frequently voiced objections", we should carefully study the scriptures and consider what the Bible has to say, both specifically and in the general principles that scripture teaches.
First, it was terribly unfair for Steve to accuse Greg of spending two years "praying about being naked".
Anyone who visits Greg's Web pages will see the overwhelming focus he has on spiritual matters.
So what was Greg praying about for two years? It should be obvious from the insight he gained in his essays that the Lord has used the scriptures to show him many things, such as:
The greatness of God as creator of humanity
Favoring character over the outward appearance of others
Relying on God, being "clothed in Christ" as it were.
(Source essay: Being Properly Clothed)
In addition, Greg has gained insight into the fall of mankind from the state of grace that prevailed in Eden.
Greg has meditated on the benefits of naturism, including:
It creates an egalitarian society
Naturist culture helps foster healthy body image
It tends to prevent girls from becoming objects of intense curiosity by young boys.
In Greg's essay, "Did you know", he summarizes Biblical accounts of good nudity and points out the longstanding church tradition of nude baptism, dating back to the days when the apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, would have stopped any indecent behavior.
Greg also wrote "Anyway, I just want to say that almost every verse of scripture you've quoted, you've quoted out of context."
Please don't make general statements like that. Please show me where I've quoted "every verse of scripture" out of context and explain why you believe they are out of context.
Greg: "The bottom line is, which Gospel are you preaching? Galatians 1:8-9 says, "...if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" What is your gospel?"
I believe Christ died to pay the penalty for the sins of those He came to save. His people are saved by His grace through His gift of faith, by which they receive Him and trust His sacrifice as the complete payment for their sins.
Greg has posted at least fourteen essays and all are well worth reading.
Steve suggests that the human body needs covering because it was impacted by sin.
The Bible, especially the Old Testament is a book of covenants. God made several covenants, but never a covenant of clothing. There are no Torah commandments to wear clothing, except for the specific priestly garb that was worn in temple ceremonies (fulfilled in Christ).
Steve grossly exaggerates the depravity of creation, which still strongly bears the image of Creator God, in particular, God's highest creation the human being.
In addition, Steve completely ignores the redemptive work of Christ. Any moral or ceremonial bodily impurity is absolved by the blood of Christ. The perfection of our bodies will come after the resurrection day, but our justification begins immediately upon repentance. Sadly this knowledge is completely missing from Steve's biblical training.
Well, now he is gone and living in a way that God never intended, sadly joined by millions of other victims of prudish falsehood.
That was a great observation Mark, I'm sure Greg appreciates that.
"Steve suggests that the human body needs covering because it was impacted by sin."
Yes, everything has been impacted by sin! And we hoped to let him know that Christs blood covered everything that was impacted by sin. Therefore, there is no more sin! Our bodies were no more impacted than anything else. Why can people realize that Jesus is healing the minds and hearts and relationships of people. Things are just things, even our bodies. But Jesus cleansed it all, so sin is no longer holding us back.
It's when we keep going back to sin is when we are tainted. But we seek out the blood of Jesus, his forgiveness, his righteousness. We don't run back to Adams resolution of hiding our bodies, we seek Jesus Christ this time.
I do think this fellow thinks way too much about nudity as well. So much so, he keeps closet fulls of clothing so that he won't be seen naked even for a moment. Talk about obsession!
BTW, he had no choice but to leave. I blocked his two IP addresses.
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
"Steve suggests that the human body needs covering because it was impacted by sin."
I have felt several years that legalism can lead to gnosticism, maybe not in the classic sense but one of the characteristics of the gnostics was to think that everything physical was bad while everything spiritual was good. This was also a characteristic of many of the monastic orders where suppression of physical desires was considered more holy.
While I believe the Bible warns us not to be ruled by the physical side of this world, it also does not want us to deny that side as doing so may actually become the idolitry that the person is trying so hard to avoid.
I think you're right. Steve's emphasis on Paul's words about "the flesh" are unfortunately characteristic of many Christians and Christian leaders--yet Romans 8 is balanced, in Paul's writings, by such passages as "present your bodies a living sacrifice..." (Romans 12:1), and, "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thessalonians 5:23, emphasis mine) Paul was no Gnostic, nor was he anti-body, as his insistent affirmation of Jesus' BODILY resurrection in I Corinthians 15 shows.
This is what comes when you fix on certain Scriptures to the exclusion of others, or neglect looking for alternate views in Scripture itself. (I still haven't quite figured out why the Lord, through Moses, prohibited nakedness while priests were doing priestly duties. Exodus 20:26; 28:42-43.)
Well shucks! I missed that! I should have caught that myself! You are right, it does smack of Gnosticism!
Good catch. Gnosticism is also responsible for the "Gospel of Thomas" which was not written by the Thomas we know of the scriptures, but another person around the 150-200 AD marker. Probably attributed it to Thomas, as was custom in those days.
Personally, I wouldn't want anyone to contribute any writing to me unless I read it through first.
That is why I do not quote or use the Gospel of Thomas in my writings or beliefs.
Gospel according to Steve Baird, "No longer holy, perfect, and beautiful to behold, but rather needing to be covered up, especially in God's sight, which is what God did with them when He covered them with clothing".
St Paul's Letter to the Hebrews:
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:13 (NIV)
Also: Romans 6:13-14 "...Instead, give yourselves completely to God since you have been given new life. And use your whole body as a tool to do what is right for the glory of God."
New International Version:
"3Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness."
New American:
"...but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."
King James:
"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."
New International Version: Romans 12:1
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship."
Now I find this interesting:
Romans 6:13-14 (The Message)
12-14 "That means you must not give sin a vote in the way you conduct your lives. Don't give it the time of day. Don't even run little errands that are connected with that old way of life. Throw yourselves wholeheartedly and full-time—remember, you've been raised from the dead!—into God's way of doing things. Sin can't tell you how to live. After all, you're not living under that old tyranny any longer. You're living in the freedom of God"
4-6
"In this way we are like the various parts of a human body. Each part gets its meaning from the body as a whole, not the other way around. The body we're talking about is Christ's body of chosen people. Each of us finds our meaning and function as a part of his body. But as a chopped-off finger or cut-off toe we wouldn't amount to much, would we? So since we find ourselves fashioned into all these excellently formed and marvelously functioning parts in Christ's body, let's just go ahead and be what we were made to be, without enviously or pridefully comparing ourselves with each other, or trying to be something we aren't."
I dont' usually read paraphrases, but using it as a lesson book, not like you would a translation, it would be helpful. I wouldn't put stock in paraphrases as "gospel" like I would a very good translation.
However, Judas had to do what he did in order for the sacrifice to continue (it was prophecied), and I'm sure God will find a place in heaven for Judas when he repents.
If you did what he did and were overcome with guilt, you would be well led to do something not normally done.. might the Bible just have left that part out..as to what he thought in the pressure of dying..
The Bible just says he hung himself -- it does not mention what happened to his soul..
Might God give him time to repent... there is no where in the Bible the following -- nor is it taught by any church which also uses tradition --
1).when one is individually judged after death as there is no time in eternity.
2). Who has gone to hell or eternal perdition.. not anyone...
Lets remember we are talking about a very oppressed prople who wre expecting a solution to their problem... not eternal , but material..
If you wre so oppressed , you might do what some did and reject Christ..
The Bible says that a man is "alloted to die once, then judgement".
To me, that says that the next thing that we are aware of after death is our time of judgement. We don't get a second chance after we die- that's why it's so important to be in a right relationship with God here on Earth. Otherwise, we could just do what we wanted while we were here, then repent our way into Heaven after we died... not.
Also, didn't Jesus say about His betrayed that it would have been better for him to never have been born?
Thanks Mark! As Boyd said, I do appreciate your post. It means a lot.
As an aside, along with my web site, I've dealt with numerous people like Steve, and so I've learned a lot over the years. One of the main things I've learned is that neither side rarely, if ever, convinces the other of anything...which is why I had not responded sooner, and why I limited what I said.
In fact, Steve asked me to show him verse by verse how he took scripture out of context. In normal situations, that would only be fair. In this situation (knowing from my experience with having dealt with people like him many times), he wasn't really looking to learn anything, but he was looking for something to argue over. We've seen this here before and the pattern is always the same.
Another thing is, these people talk in circles. For instances, he asks, "Where did I say that the answer to sin is clothing?" and then he answers his own question by concluding, "...my body is still unredeemed and full of sin. ...my fallen, depraved, sin infested and corrupting body still must be covered and should not be fully exposed in public." What I find odd about this logic is, why don't they apply it to other situations? We have sickness, death and other problems as a result of The Fall, but you don't hear them arguing that we need to accept those things because of sin. Instead, everyone tries to avoid the curses that came upon us.
As for my two years of study and prayer, you are correct. I wanted to make sure I thoroughly understood what the Bible actually said about the subject, and not merely the physical, but especially the spiritual.
Anyway, thank you again Mark. I appreciate your kind words.
If we accept Steve's message, how much "flesh" do we cover up...just our "privates," our whole body, what? And who says? Where does it tell us in the Bible? And why would the uncovered parts be less sinful than the covered parts? If the whole body is sinful, should we cover every part, even our faces and eyes? And what about Jesus. He was born of human flesh, yet the Bible says, "He was without sin."
Besides this, when we wear clothes, we're covering our bodies with still more flesh...the flesh of an animal or plant. I guess that flesh is ok? Because it hasn't sinned as we have? Either way, how does one kind of flesh covering another kind of flesh hide the flesh? As Trailscout pointed out, it doesnt, since "everything is bare before the Lord."
Sorry! I just had to throw out some additional thoughts. The bottom line is, I think most critics just don't think through all the implications.
If we accept Steve's message, how much "flesh" do we cover up...just our "privates," our whole body, what? And who says? Where does it tell us in the Bible? And why would the uncovered parts be less sinful than the covered parts? If the whole body is sinful, should we cover every part, even our faces and eyes? And what about Jesus. He was born of human flesh, yet the Bible says, "He was without sin."
It seems that I Cor 12:19-24 covers this nicely (and by the way, this is pulled out of context somewhat)
(From The Message) But I also want you to think about how this keeps your significance from getting blown up into self-importance. For no matter how significant you are, it is only because of what you are a part of. An enormous eye or a gigantic hand wouldn't be a body, but a monster. What we have is one body with many parts, each its proper size and in its proper place. No part is important on its own. Can you imagine Eye telling Hand, "Get lost; I don't need you"? Or, Head telling Foot, "You're fired; your job has been phased out"? As a matter of fact, in practice it works the other way—the "lower" the part, the more basic, and therefore necessary. You can live without an eye, for instance, but not without a stomach. When it's a part of your own body you are concerned with, it makes no difference whether the part is visible or clothed, higher or lower. You give it dignity and honor just as it is, without comparisons. If anything, you have more concern for the lower parts than the higher. If you had to choose, wouldn't you prefer good digestion to full-bodied hair?
The point is, there are parts of the body that many consider unsightly or unseemly. This passage seems to address this. "You give it dignity and honor just as it is, without comparisons"
As I mentioned to Steve, these verses are about members of the body of Christ- the Church- not pieces of our individual bodies, but I think that the concept still holds true.
The author was making the point that no matter who the person was, or what job they had been called to do, they were equally as important as every other person. Like a body the Church cannot operate correctly unless every part is doing the job that it is called to do, and not telling all the other parts how to do their jobs.
Like I said, though, I believe these verses hold true to a discussion about our bodies. No part is inherently more important than any other part, and I don't believe that any part is any more or less inherently shameful than any other. That only happens when somebody says that it's so, and somebody else believes it. Unfortunately so many people have said it for so long that most people believe it, and those of us who don't, even when we point out appropriate scripture that backs us up, are thought to be "out there".
Two years, Greg, was about the time it took me to become convinced that naturism was something I would like to embrace. After that, there was another year or so of dialogue and exploring before my "first time." This is such a radical concept for most Christians that it often takes that long from "What in the world?" to "Oh yeah, I'm a naturist now!"
We are all links in a long chain of events. That is why there are links to other sites, because we know we can't say it all or know it all.
We may be the first contact, or the last where they are ready to commit. Or just one of a zillion pieces in the middle. Either way, God leads people to Christ, one day at a time, through one person at a time, one part at a time.
Today, the mouth of the teacher speaks, and the ear of the student hears, but later the heart of the speaker speaks, and the heart of the student hears.
Though the hand covers the ears, the foot keeps them walking back for more.
