Living natural as God originally wanted us to do brings a sense of peace with no guilt -- there is nothing to be guilty about if we are right with God. There is nothing to be ashamed for -- we actually feel the presence of God's grace in our natural un-clothed boidies. God is in control -- not his enemy -- and what we fear of sexual arousal just not occurr. In home naturalism, we are busy doing our daily tasks ,or relaxing that bad thoughts just do not happen. Even if they do it is not from being un-clothed and we just repel them with a good thought. In fact the grace overwhelms us and we do not even think of such a thing.

As to self consciousness over any of our body parts, I can assure you God will show you that your body is just like everyone elses. Maybe this could be compared to cars coming off an assembly line -- there are basic designs, but variations in accessories -- lets say we are all men or women -- but our bodies are all different color skins, heights, with different color of eyes, etc. Think of it that God has never made any two of anyone -- and He never will.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I ask you why would anyone want to tattoo their bodies that God gave us for the time on this earth with designs (?) You would not want to cut pictures into a beautiful hand carved item given you by your grandfather.. This is what I have been told by those from many cultures -- here again, different but each equal before God.

Most of us shave hairs at various points on your bodies, to supposedly make ourselves feel or look better. What's the difference between shaving and tattooing?

Some buy a new car and proceed to modify it.

To each their own.

Ralph

I'll take the car example on step further- motorcycles.

It's almost a rarity for somebody to buy a Harley-Davidson and not immediately begin to modify it. The bike they buy off the show-room floor is just the basic cookie-cutter model, but once they buy it they then begin to "make it their own". What they do to their bike is a form of personnal expression.

Likewise, most people "modify" their bodies in one way or another; some with something basic like shaving their face or their legs, and some people go farther, with tattoos or piercings, for example.

I don't really think that any of the people who do these alterations are saying that there is anything wrong with the original design; they are just making a statement of personnal choice. Differant people have differant ideas as to what is asthetically pleasing. Some people choose to leave everything alone, while other people chose not to.

The Old Testament has verses that say not to tattoo or "cut" the body, but in most cases today I do not think that the reasoning behind those verses applies to the people- especially the Christians- who are getting tattoo'd or pierced. The OT forbidance was due to the culture, where tattoo's or cutting the body (not necessarily piercings, because even the Israelite men had earrings) immediately identified the person as a pagan. Those preconceptions do not apply today, and even though the person may BE a pagan, it isn't automatically assumed.

Like everything else, I believe that it is possible to still honor God with your body, even if you have shaved it, pierced it, or had it tattoo'd. There is still the possibility of taking it too far, but just like always, that's more truely a matter of the heart than anything else, just with more immediately visible results.

Just a few of my thoughts (and I have to be careful with them... there's so few of themin there, they get lonely sometimes )

Later
God bless
Kevin

The custom of painting one's nails, changing our hair color, were forbidden in the past..

One obvious prohibition was that of wearing the clothes of the opposite sex (by women). I do not know of any large scale men wearing women's clothes.

When did customs change is questionable.

In my travel to Europe I was shocked to see women attendants in male bathrooms...

Now lets get to the real battle for us Nudist people. How much to we score in the war room wall score board on these...

It is my understanding that most massage locations across the world have female operatives while clothes free is the rule for the clients.. This from my nudist cousin.

Recently there was on network television a sumo tournament where the participants wore almost nothing but a sash around the waist (in the form of a letter T) and that was about it. Lets say 98.7 -- my radio station's frequency -- per cent nude! Seems this is the way it is done in Japan. The athletic clothes manufacturers seem to be missing a market to get these hunks -- up to 450 pounds -- to be clothed. No one protested... Research this one ... Should not this be according to textile people -- indecent? This sport is done this way in Hawaiian Catholic sschools. Also the olympics according to the History Channel narrative had nude participants in the re-creations of the sports (as the participant athletes were in reality). Should we score some points for our side to get clothes to become obsolete? Joke!!

What about African kids -- up to 12 -- being taught in religious schools completely naked and co-ed. Pictures even in the headquarters of the religious order headquarters of this -- with no concern. What do we score for our side on this one?

What about the girls in Papaua New Guinea going top-less even receving Holy Communion? Some socialite sent them dresses... they cut off the tops and used the skirts... How much do we score as nudists forthis on our side in the world wide battle against the textile people? Ha Ha..

"One obvious prohibition was that of wearing the clothes of the opposite sex (by women). I do not know of any large scale men wearing women's clothes."

Joe, you obviously don't live in Denver! There's a sizable transvestite contingent here, and many of them are big men. Of course, if they all became naturists, the issue would be moot.

"When did customs change is questionable."

Over a long time, by leaps and baby steps. Others have traced the history of clothing much better than I can. One site called The Natural Way (sorry; don't have its URL at my fingertips) has a lot of good historical background. Be warned, though; some of its author's worldviews are distinctly pagan.

In the churches, there have been numerous dissident groups, usually called Adamites after a third-century sect, that practiced nudism. Church authorities often accused them of sexual immorality too--yet I wonder if such accusations were any more justified than those most Christians today make against us...

I live in south Texas...
Case for not judging...
Song "deck of cards" where soldier is accused of gambling with a deck of cards... his answer was he has too poor to afford a bible..and so he made up a code for each of the cards..

At my bible study tonight we were studying the case in John of the fence sitting Synagogue members who did not want to make a decision for Christ..

Sometimes we just can not do that...just like choosing to become naturists or not..in a lot of cases we have to protect ourselves from those who are not us... frogive them for they know not what they do ---?

I spent some time reading a site tonight about the church fathers down playing Jesus being nude at least 7 times and occasions in the bible -- especially on the cross. Here prudence is not in order... He was naked -- be realistic. Who are we shielding his nakedness from? He freed us from the guilt trip of nakedness.. In a way we naturists need to show the world being un-clothed is a good -- not a bad..

In the Catholic church, the crucifix is as close as we can get to the real depiction of the crucifiction -- yet it needs to take away the modesty of the loin cloth -- which is mis leading. If Samuel and the prophets are naked worshipping God and God told Isiah to go naked for 3 years,OT, then the fulfillment of the OT should be as it was naked..

You know that the peace that comes when we are nude is un-describable. even more so in the presence of other like kinds.. This is a unique gift of naturism God has given us. Your eternal life is now...and for ever...

viking

I have found the need to clear my brain foir just every day events and needs -- there is just only space for so much..

Unless I am dragged into something it is better to let dissidents be ignored.. that is not to say that they do not get my dissident/ answer button ready to respond...

that is the reason I am not using my name too many would not understand..
Yet I will am aware many are imitating us -- in private..

Please excuse typing errors, but read what I say carefully. Tatoos are like your child taking a cake that you worked hard to bake and throwing it back at you with mud all over it. Reminds me of person who borrowed a new wheelbarrow and returned it ruined with cement all in it. Same person somehow had to take and dispose of a Round Rock Express baseball club zippered bag without permission. This club is owned by a mutual friend of mine whose all American image is most Christian and appealing -- except to this person..

I'm not sure of the second part about a persons round rock baseball club zippered bag, but lets go back to the first. Tattoos.

Sure, I don't care too much for them myself. I'm too much of a wimp to go through the process and if I did, I probably would have wished I had a different piece of artwork instead of what I picked. I take five minutes staring at a menu to decide what I want. (Five minutes in a restaurant is a long time when everyone is hungry)

I'ts hard for me to design my own sign, never satisfied. So to get a permanent tatoo on me would be really hard to complete properly.

But for others, seems to be no big deal.

Your analogy of a child taking a cake and throwing it back at you with mud all over it does not come through quite right. I'm carefully reading it and replying to it the best I can.

Maybe to you, it's like someone taking your hard work and taking a sledge hammer to it because they despise it. Did the child despise the cake and hate you for it? If so, then the problem is not the mud or the cake, but the child.

If the child was only trying to help, and got it's mud pies mixed up with the cake by getting it's contents transfered over, then it would be an accident.

In the case of tatoo artists, they do so for body art, not to improve on God's work as if God's work wasn't good enough, but to add to what God has done already, like us taking wild flowers and arranging them in a vase or a garden. We cross pollinate plants and come up with unique flowers and shrubs, coming up with varieties that did not exist just a few years ago, let alone two thousand years ago.

compare our tatoos to the ones of Moses' day when these laws were put into effect.

Tatoos were symbols of tribes, slavery, ownership, worship. What it did was tell everyone that you are owned by another person, branded like cattle. Gods people were freed, not to be "branded" like cattle to be owned by another nation. They were not to be given brands of other gods, they were "branded" already by the great God of Isreal who freed them out from under bondage.

That is a better analogy since it is a picture of humanity coming out of this world and its system, under Jesus Christ.

Today, they are art work to display your idea of "beauty". Admitidly, some go way over board and really use their bodies as palates and virtually become a walking meuseum of art. What we would call "obsessed". You know, like us who like to be nude (only less painful).

Though it's easy to hide a nudist, just put enough clothes on them to cover their waist, it's hard to hide the tattooed lady.

I don't think that a child adding a little extra frosting to the cake is quite the same thing as throwing it back to you with mud all over it. One is trying to add some color and variety, enhancement, the other is outright rebellion and hatred for all that God stands for.

I doubt seriously these tattooed people are doing this out of hatred to God or hatred for all of humanity, throwing it all back in God's face. They do not compare thier tattoos to mud to throw back at God.

But those who are irresponsible, will pay the price, if nothing else, with bad skin rashes, hating the artwork because they chose the wrong one, bad artist, or they were drunk (which is like abusing the body of Christ).

There are many things out there we do against the body of Christ that is far worse than tattooing, but I woudn't suggest anyone to go out and get one.

I find it ironic though, when someone gets a tattoo, they are not "condemned to hell" like those who are naturally nude as God made us in the first place! So to a mind of a fundamentalist, going nude is actually worse than having a tattoo!

As for apple pies and Chevys, I suppose those who like them, are as corrupt as I am!

(Didja ever notice that some people think it was an apple that was the forbidden fruit, yet they have no problems eating it?)

Boyd

"(Didja ever notice that some people think it was an apple that was the forbidden fruit, yet they have no problems eating it?)"

I have noticed that, Boyd. I've also never yet come across a Christian who had any problem with eating deviled eggs or devil's food cake. raises eyebrows LOL

... but it sounds a bit harsh to me.

I would hope that, even without agreeing woth them, that you be a little less aggressive about condemning those who have tattoo's. That may not be what you intend, but that's certainly how it comes accross.

As I said before, and as Boyd pointed out, I don't believe that most people who get tattoo's do so specifically out of rebellion against the One who created those bodies. Usually, it's done simply for personnal expression, without any intended offense to anybody.

We all have things that irritate us, or that we find offensive, especially concerning how other people do things. You brought up cars- well, I'm a classic car fan, and I can't STAND it when somebody puts a motor from one manufacturer into a body from another manufacturer. It just seems to me to be disrespectful to both... but, it isn't my car.

If somebody chooses to adorn their body with ink or jewelery, that's their choice, and they will be the ones who answer to God for it. If a Christian feels in their heart that it's okay, that's between them and their Father. I may not like it, but I won't hold it against them too much. That would make it too hard for me to still love them like I'm called to do...

God bless
Kevin

I can understand the ideas or concerns of body piercing and tattooing. But even shaving is not always a bad thing.

I see people tatoo their bodies over a period of years and they become the "tattooed man" or lady and become a "show stopper".

One can become an extremist over anything, even naturism. I don't know how you can become an extremist over naturism when being nude is as natural as a tree outside. But in our society, we are treated as extremists. We don't do anything one way or the other. Just don't put on clothes.

That keeps bringing me back to my article on Ecologically Sound where the extremists are the clothes wearers. But they treat is as perfectly normal.

It does take a lot trouble and time to wear clothes, get tattoos (painful and risky too) as well as piercings (on parts I would get very squeemish about) and of course, body shaving. Lots of work folks.

I like being nude. So simple, so clean, God had it right the first time.

But on the other hand, we can run analogies to death and they do have their limits. Kevin is correct, cars were not designed to be kept that way, people modify them all the time, and there is no social taboo for that and the designer is not insulted. In fact, the designer and manufacturers are usually thrilled to get that kind of attention on their particular cars and bikes.



Boyd Allen
"May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."

I saw a woman on Ripley's Believe it or Not who had over 700 piercings and was going for 1,000. She wasn't sure she would stop at 1,000. To me she looked grotesque and ugly. I don't know how many she had in her face, but I could hardly stand to look at her. Shw looked like like something out of a Sci Fi or horror movie.

Sorry, I should have used my name on that, and I put the title in the wrong place.

Folks -- what is eauty is in the eye of the beholder, but lets not take it too far...what is wqrong with just honoring our Creator just once by letting him design our bodies. Lookinmg on anothere as God has made them is grace in action -- with no duplicates around.. Nudity brings out the depth and uniqueness of everyone..
Boyd and my other fellow forum members I apologize for letting off steam, but some where there is an opposition to creation here ---
Why would anyone want to throw back at God his image with all sorts of added paint, etc. I said prewviously it is like taking your grandfather's careving of a beautiful statue and cutting your initials all over it..In one church I attend there is a black walnut carved statue of Jesus. Can you imagine what statement you are sending to the donor to mess it up....

While on the subject of statements I must get on my soap box as a male chauvinist pig narrow minded as it is. I lose my cool every time I see a certain woman who has a flat top haircu looking like a man, who dresses like a mam, and then plasters all over her car all sorts of signs about her parents national origin. You want to know why no one of the opposite sex wants anyone to do with them... I used to call one who worked at one institution that I visited quite often and dressed and cut her hair trans sexual -- Miss Beauty Shop... Please folks God made you with ons set of blue prints -- and you want to use another.. I often wonder what these trans sexual imitators are called by clerks waiting on them.. Perhaps it goes something like this...
Good (evening, day) sir or madame as the case may be. I know of one of these trans -- who bought their clothes in a childrensa shop of the opposite sex...

I hope that, if I'm ever in close association with a transvestite--something that's very likely, since I hang out with musicians and poets and artists--I would be able to treat then with all the grace and courtesy due a potential brother in Christ. I have done so to homosexuals and other sinners, even gasp naturists! LOL

Memo to Boyd and other Nudist forces -- high priority...


Battle Room Tactics of Nudists -- it is for real and the war is om...

Yes nudists are being called extremists -- isn't that a title? As our climate gets progressively warmer, should not more textile-ers (them the non-nudists)join us. Maybe we need a good spokes person like was done to get women to wear pants suits...

Or better yet, keep an eye on the stock market and start selling short clothing manufacturers' stock.. but what type of stock should we buy to replace this type?
You know there might just be a new and un-tapped market -- selling supplies to the nudists --out there and we should be the first to get in on it..
maytbe a chain of nudist parks -- or better yet lets franchise them..

Now really did you really believed we as nudists would believe this one.. after all the author of Gulliver's Travels made it on a fictional war between two opposing forces -- those who cracked their eggs on the big end and those who cracked their eggs on the little end. No joke read it..

We do need a national nude day -- such as St. Francis of Assissi -- who went around preaching (like Isiah) nude. He should be a good patron... pet blessing and in the nude -- what a day, dream on......

Joe Tibiletti

We already have a National Nude Recreation Week every year.

The idea is to use the week to promote simple, non-sexual nude recreation toour friends, families, and co-workers.

If it isn't working (and it seems to be, actually, if you read the numbers the last few years about how nude recreation has taken off), who's fault is it?

Later
God Bless
Kevin

As Kevin said, there is already a national nude week, during the week of July 4th, the celebration of our independance/freedom.

And as for items for sale, see The Skinny Dipper Shop.

There are at least two major national support clubs, The Naturist Society (TNS) where the Skinny Dipper Shop is and the American Association for Nude Recreation (AANR).

There are at least four, maybe five naturst resorts in NC alone, plus one well known and respected one in Virginia where Kevin goes to.

Many resorts in Florida and naturism is very much alive and well in along the West Coast, especially Northern California on up.

Most states of the Union have several "non-landed" clubs, though not all states have landed clubs. Two states that fight hard against it are Kentucky and Arkansaw and as far as I know, have no resorts or "landed" clubs.

The AANR and TNS are both activily sending their troops to Washington DC as well as the local governments, watching any laws that are about to go on the books that will hinder naturism. These laws were generally lmade to curb or completely remove the sexual oriented industries such as topless or nude bars and playhouses. As a result, they end up blanketing all forms of nude activity and puts the average nudist back in the closet. So they have to make sure the wording on these laws protect the naturist group, and hopefully, in the long run, make "clean" nudity legal.

There is much going on out there and we can use some more support.

Own a radio station did you say??

Boyd "Live Nude and Prosper" Allen

I'm a little offended and annoyed at some attitudes about body modifications in this thread.

As it was mentioned, there is a GREAT difference in doing something out of spite or rebeliousness and doing something in a helpful and joyful spirit.

I have several body modifications, a tattoo on my back between my shoulderblades of a celtic-style Chi Rho design, as well as a few piercings. I hope to get at least one more tattoo in the near future, which will be a dove design and possibly some lettering around it. For me, my tattoos are not done in spite or a rebellious nature to throw back in God's face. Rather, my tattoos are done to honor Him and make His reputation precede me wherever I may be. I could have never gotten a tattoo and looked like every other unmarked person out there, in theory. However, I chose to mark my body with the name of Christ (and hopefully I will do the same again, soon). I honor Him because His is the only name I will ever wear on my body permanently. I will never ever get the name of a man, woman, child, or even a pet put on my body because this life is not about them. This life is about God, period. I don't mark my body for anyone or anything but Him (and He is quite alive - just to head off those arguments).

Not everybody with a tattoo feels the same way as I do, and there are many that like to "beautify" their bodies by covering it with "living" art. Some people choose to cover their entire bodies, others choose to get little "sticker" tattoos, and still others choose to not get a tattoo at all. I don't think that covering one's entire body with tattooing is a good practice, however, I don't see any harm with a personally significant Christian tattoo. We all have free will - it's built into the blue print - and will choose what we see fit, hopefully with the wisdom of God behind us.

I really don't like the stereotyping that is going on with this talk about those tattooed people. Some people tattoo their bodies for very satanic and evil reasons, while others - like me, for example - tattoo their bodies to honor God, or whatever their belief system may be (which is a totally different debate...). It's like the fine line between those who choose to be nude for the sake of looking at others' nude bodies and those who enjoy being nude socially for the fellowship with others of like mind.

Not all tattoos are bad. And just like naturism opens a door for evangelism, so does tattooing & piercing. Just because a person has ink (or piercings, for that matter), it doesn't mean that they can't be a perfectly pious Christian.

Laura, I agree with you wholeheatedly, and this is coming from an unmodified body. I have wanted at one time to get tatooed, but now I'm glad that I didn't. That doesn't mean that I don't like them, because I do like some of the art that people have placed on their skin for the canvas, whether it be by ink, piercings or both. It's a matter of the heart, what is the purpose of the modification that is important.

Daniel

I almost got a tattoo once, but they wouldn't take a check, and I rarely carry cash. Besides, I was nude at the time. Where would I carry money?

The same place you were carrying your checkbook??? Which, I don't know where that would be when you are naked...lol

Nice catch!

But tell me, was the tatto artist at a naturist resort or beach?


Boyd Allen
"May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."

I agree completely, Laura.

God Bless
Kevin

Tattooing and piercing can be done with the best of intentions, but the result is the same, the body is disfigured, sometimes slightly, sometimes with gruesome severity.

Many resorts ban piercings placed on the sexual organs. I have heard various explanations, links to the S&M community and the fact that shiny bits of metal inherently draw attention to whatever body part they are attached to.

Family naturist venues are right to take a leadership role in standards of appearance instead of just letting the latest fads determine what is acceptable, no matter how gruesome or tasteless.

Tattoos are sometimes in inconspicuous places, sometimes they are big and ugly and highly visible.

It should be up to the leaders of a community what they will accept or what constitutes a desecration of the natural human condition.

I applaud naturist leaders who do all they can to promote the goodness of the nude human body in its nude natural condition. They should not stop defending the beauty of unadorned nudity simply because a few or even a majority seem determined to "fix what ain't broke".

After all, the majority of Americans think that nudity should not be left alone, but should be covered with clothes.

The same textile attitude motivates many to use tattoos or metal spikes, since they think that simple nudity can be improved upon.

We should do all we can to fight this wrong-headed notion.

Perhaps, Trailscout--but I for one am not willing to make a big issue out of it once I've expressed my own opinion. It's like hair. I like mine long and unshaven, and enjoy seeing it the same way on others--yet I realize how little that means whenever I read verses like I Samuel 16:7 and Galatians 3:28.

We have many more important things to worry about.

Jochanaan,

The notion that I am asking people here to fight is the notion that the nude body can be improved upon by adding:
clothes, metal piercings, dye injections, whatever Michael Jackson did to himself, or you-name-it.

Some men have taken piercing so far that they have actually destroyed the integrity of the last few inches of their urethra and leak all over themselves when they need to relieve themselves.

There is a difference between what I will accept on my friends (I love them regardless of appearance) and what I want naturist leaders to do at the gates of a naturist park.

Barring people with excessive tattoos and piercings from visiting a naturist park is a judgment call, but I don't think we should be cowardly about having opinions and making decisions that we believe are right.

If naturist leaders say, "You cannot come to our community dressed like that; remove the metal and we will welcome you," then they are exercising leadership.

Regarding your comment, I think you are quite mistaken. It seems obvious to me that how we treat our bodies makes a very important naturist or non-naturist statement to our children, to the textile world and to ourselves.

... as has been previously stated, most people who get piercings or tattoo's do not think about it as "improving nudity", or at least those that I know don't.

"Tattoos are sometimes in inconspicuous places, sometimes they are big and ugly and highly visible." Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, or the wearer. Very few people have tattoo's they think are ugly. They may not like it/them anymore, for whatever, but very few people would do something so permanent to their body if they personally think that it is ugly.

As far as fighting a wrong-headed notion, I don't believe that this is one. Whether or not anybody or everybody agrees with them or not, to get a piercing or a tattoo is a person's free will in action, and I can't be against that, even if I personally don't like it.

Later
God Bless
Kevin

You might find a small, extremely small, portion of the tattooed/pierced community that views their modifications as "improving upon nudity," however, those individuals would be far and VERY few in between. The only time you'll find a person that views one of his or her tattoos as "ugly," will be if they cannot afford removal (either by cutting, coverup, or laser treatments) and/or correction, or if they find the "uglyness" of their tattoo(s) endearing...it can happen, albeit rarely.

Also, whether or not you view someone's tattoo as ugly, is quite irrelevant. God gave us the imaginations that we have and I believe that anything that comes from those imaginations with the purpose to glorify Him, He would see the meaning behind.

As for getting tattooed or pierced being a "wrong-headed notion," that's your opinion - and I for one am not going to be fighting against the desire of anyone to put some ink or metal on their bodies. Now, the content of the tattoo or reason for the piercing, I might have an issue with, but as far as my modifications are concerned, they are for the glorification of God and I see no problem with that at all - nude or otherwise.