So what did you think of this page when you read it? Was it easy to understand? Did it stay in focus with the subject at hand. Did it jump from one option to another, (such as, oh the Anti-christ is probably the Crown Prince of England or Ronald Reagan or the Pope), like so many other postings about this subject matter?
Please tell me your honest opinion of this research.
I have read Revelation about 4 times and gave up on reading it the last 2-4 other times I read the Bible through. Got absolutely NOTHING out of it. Even those seemingly straight-forward messages to the 7 churches are laced with symbolism.
In my opinion, John was crazy when he wrote it and regained his sanity when he came back from Patmos and wrote the gospel of John.
Why they kept it in the Bible and threw out some more meaningful books; I'll never know in this lifetime.
There's a small group in our congregation studying Revelation now.
There was a debate during the canonizing of the bible if it should be in there or not. The council of Nicea (sp?) was confused by it.
Revelation is full of symbolism because it's an apocolypse. This is not a "revelation" of our future UNLESS you apply it to a current generation.
Each current generation can use these scriptures to pull them through their hard times. The story basically says this: Mans government stinks, God's government will win. You will suffer through mans government, but don't get involved with their political whores. You may suffer for not being a part of them, or you can suffer by getting involved with them.
You will suffer and die for being a Christian, but you will have hope.
You will suffer and die for being a political whore, and you won't have hope.
Your choice.
Each generation has to make this choice as we do today.
Actually, it was written for that generation. It was about the Roman government. An apolocolypse is a story, sometimes satirical, about the current political climant and it's people.
Dantes Inferno is an apocolypse, but unfortunatly, like Revelation, it was put into Christiain dogma as gospel. Caused a lot of confusion and unnecessary grief.
But if we don't take God seriously, we will be lost.
I don't look for an anti-christ in a single person. He is not encoded in the bible for us to look for.
The anti-christ at that time was the political leader(s) of that time. And many other subsequent leaders as well who claim to be god and denies the true Christ. Today, it can be anyone.
There were "anti-Christs" who infilterated the church as members who were starting trouble by proclaiming a different gospel, which was not a gospel.
I don't look for them today. They just show up at church on occasion and some become political leaders.
Also keep in mind that this was written about the time the Romans sacked Jerusalem and burned down the temple. Not only was the temple destroyed, but many jews and priests defended it and stood not only inside it, but on top of it and around it. Needless to say, just about every priest and man there within the vicinity of that Temple was killed.
Today, there are no records of who the priest in line is. The best they can do is try to come up with one if ever given a chance. Ironic isnt' it that Jesus is that high priest. The physical ones, along with most of the records were killed.
From church historical records and a part of tradition, Jesus warned the Christians ahead of time by saying "When you see the desolation"..."do not go back to your house...but to flee". This was the warning for this time (not our time) and the Christians did leave Jerusalem before the destruction. They had no reason to stay back because the Temple was not for them any more and they knew it.
I'm sure they didn't know it was going to be destroyed, but had they stayed, they would have been. Therefore, not one Christian was lost during that war. The Jewish people lost many many lives. Blood was flowing in the streets.
So a book like John wrote was in need and John was in exile for a reason.
The church was scattered and growing all over the Roman empire as well as into Africa. Johns letter known as the Apocolypse was not only sent on that mailing route, but eventually sent all over for the purpose of warning the people to stay faithful to the end.
If Revelation was written to encourage Jews and Jewish Christians devastated by the sack of Jerusalem, it came a quarter-century too late. General Titus sacked Jerusalem in 70AD, while Revelation is traditionally dated around 96AD...? Seems to me God's timing is usually better than that.
I remember the first few times I read the Book of Revelation. It was rather confusing. But through perseverance and prayer, I finally started to begin to
understand this book.
And yes, the messages to the seven churches, although seemingly symbolic, it is direct forward. A history of the seven churces des help to put things
somewhat into perspective. One thing to remember is that the seven churches are not symbolic of the ages of the churches starting with the Church of
Ephesus and ending with the Church of Laodicea. These messages were not written for a certain time frame. These letters were not addressed to an
age but rather, were addressed to the "Spirit" of the churches, which were represented by the seven stars, (light of the spirit, angels). The churches
were represented by the seven golden candlesticks.
Revelation 1:19-20.
19. Now write what you "have seen", "what is", and "what is to take place after this".
20. As for the mystery of the "seven stars" in my right hand, and the "seven golden lampstands": the seven "stars" are the "angels" of the seven
churches, and the "seven lampstands" are the "seven churches".
NRSV Harper Study Bible
Revelation 1:19-20
19. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and things which shall be hereafter;
20. The mystery of the seven "stars" which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven "golden candlesticks". The seven "stars" are the "angels" of
the seven churches: and the seven "candlesticks" which thou sawest are the seven "churches". (King James Version, Thompson Study Bible)
Revelation 1:19-20
19. Write the things which you have "seen", and the things "which are", and the things which "will take place after this".
20. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven
churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
The New King James Version,
(Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.
Revelation 1:19-20
19. Write down what you have seen—both the things that are now happening and the things that will happen later.
20. This is the meaning of the seven "stars" you saw in my right hand and the seven "gold lampstands": The seven "stars" are the "angels" of the
"seven churches", and the seven "lampstands" are the "seven churches".
Holy Bible, New Living Translation,
(Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.) 1996.
This is interesting. In your opinion, John was crazy when he wrote the Book of Revelation prior to returning to Ephesus, where it is believed that the
Gospel according to John was written. Unless I missed something in the past several years, the Gospel of John was written before the Book of the
Revelation of Jesus the Christ.
The last I heard, the Scholars were still arguing over who really wrote the Gospel of John, as well as who wrote the Book of Revelation. Seems they
can't agree on whether a single author wrote both books or whether one author wrote the Gospel of John, and another author wrote the Book of
Revelation.
It is interesting to note that certain books were taken out of the bible. Including books that were referred to in the old testament as well as some that
Jesus and the apostles referred to.
Some of these books, the book of Enoch; the book of Jashur, the upright record; and the book of Jubilees. These books, which can be found and read,
do help to make it easier to understand many aspects of the prophecies and the bible, including the book of Revelation.
Are you planning on joining this small congragation on the study of the book of Revelation?
I have also been involved years ago with a group that believed that the seven churches represented seven ages of the Church, and the "current" age is Philidelphia (well known for it's love), where the next age, just at the time of the "Tribulation" before the return of Christ, is the Laodecian, and they are the "left behind" ones because of their Laodecian attitude (lack of love).
I'm not sure if I buy this one anymore, but it was a very compelling argument (and as you say, are arguing to this day).
I think the point of all this, the quoted, "what you 'have seen', 'what is', and 'what is to take place after this'," are all true, and these things have happened throughout the entire history of the Church! I don't think there is a history of the Church that does not include at least one of these historical prophecies if not all! We all need to heed the entire seven warnings and letters to the churches as if it's of our time and our lives, because it is, for every generation.
The book of Ecclesiastes closes well with the observation that it is mans duty to love God and keep his commandments and he will do well. Anything more than that is vanity.
We cannot change, add to, or improve on prophecy. Put your love and faith in God in all things, believe Jesus and be filled with the holy spirit.
The fruits of the holy spirit is in Galations 5:22, "Love, Joy, Peace, Patience....Faith..." These are not gifts, as if something we need to ask for, these are fruits that are expected to be evident in every Christian.
Gifts are such like speaking, tongues, healing, listening, helping, teaching, giving, that is the physical things we do daily to "Love God with all your stregnth". None of these gifts are worth a plug nickle to God without the fruits, such as love. Each gift is given according to the purpose of where God wants you to work.
The laodiceans may have plenty of gifts, but without the fruits, they are without love and faith. Not useful at all.
I'd rather be filled with fruits dropping off me like an over abundant tree, and only one small gift.
And I have a feeling that prophecy is not one of those gifts. Nor does it matter.
I too was involved with a church group that taught the same thing, (the same one where i received my Bible Theology training). I definitely do not buy
that one anymore either.
As for the the quote:
"what you 'have seen', 'what is', and 'what is to take place after this'," are all true, and these things have happened throughout the entire history of the
Church!", has been even longer. One thing though. Although these things have happened, one thing was never taken into consideration. Up until the
United States, (the seventh head, the one with the deadly wound), came into existance, only six empires had come and gone. But wait.
There were still two empires yet to reign.
The seventh head, which will be followed by the eighth empire. The beast that "was", (past tense), "is not", (present tense) and "shall ascend", (future
tense), out of the bottomless pit, United Nations.
It is during this reign of the eighth empire that the seventh trumpet blows, signaling the return of Jesus in judgement when he will gather all the tares first
and bundle them up and cast thenm into the eternal flame, and the wheat will be gathered into the barn. This seventh trumpet also signals the end of
time. This reaping will not take place until the harvest is "fully" ripe. Not even one moment before. Matthew 13:24-30, with explaination here, Matthew
13:36-43. Several of the parables that Jesus spoke were regarding the end of the age, the "Great Draught of Fishes", the "Separation of the Sheep from
the Goats", to name a few.
Hmmm....isn't it interesting how many people are in agreement withone another regarding certain teachings and prophecies of the Bible?
Reminds me of Elijah and Micaiah, to name a few. Elijah stood alone against 450 prophets of baal on mount carmel, I Kings 18:20-40, and Micaiah was
told what to say when he was called into Ahabs court and we know the outcome of that incident as well. I Kings 22:1-40.
You are correct that in saying we need to heed all the letters to the churches. Especially since these seven churches are alive and well on planet earth.
Your comment "The book of Ecclesiastes closes well with the observation that it is mans duty to love God and keep his commandments and he will do
well. Anything more than that is vanity.", sounds not unlike this saying,
The great spirit, the creator of all life,
(our father in heaven), gave only one commandment
to all of mankind.
"Listen to me! Be 'OBEDIENT' to me in everything
you think, everything you say, and in everything
you do!"
"Keep me FIRST and FOREMOST in everything you
think, everything you say, and in everything you
do!"
"LOVE one another the same way I LOVE you! Do GOOD
to one another the same way I do GOOD to you!"
("LOVE" one another with the exact same "LOVE" that God has for you!)
("TREAT" one another the exact same way God "TREATS" you!)
To do anything more than this, is to create a religion.
Therefore:
"Speak the TRUTH in LOVE, (pure love, that which comes from above), and share that LOVE in that same TRUTH, and DEEP WITHIN you will find
that PEACE which comes from the ETERNAL ABOVE,and NO ONE, (man, woman, or child) shall ever steal that from you!...ONLY YOU!"
"When you do this, you truly DO keep me FIRST and FOREMOST in everything you think, say, and do!"
I find it ironic that you would qoute of Galatians 5:22. My personal stationary contains reference to Galatians 5:13-26. I forwarded an email that i had
sent to janet back in January 2006.
Well did the prophet say, You shall know them by their fruits.
As you and I both know, there are many more gifts than the gift of prophecy.
As a charismatic with several gifts of the holy spirit, I agree totally with Boyd--- look to the fruits to recognize the real.. it is in the intent of one.. you can use the gifts as a night club act -- but you are abusing them..
No where can one use these gifts for their own benefit -- they are for the community.
I was called to use the gift of dsicernment to help in the help of health of people in physical as well as mental..
It has been closit limited for the various reasons Boyd now knows...
Boyd,
Re: your mom loss of voice..
I know a person who was born without a voice in a pentecostal family.. The church prayed for a num,ber of days without interruption asking Go's will// This person is in a evangelist ministry today.. I will supply more details if requested.. possibly if this person could pray over mom for direction.....
No, I don't plan on going to that small group meeting.
If someone has it figured out, why not write a book on it called "Revelation explained" so we can read it and understand it? Would prefer to actually just read the explanation and skip the gobble-de-gook wording in Revelation.
I looked up all kinds of references on that to the Laodiceans, and NONE of them explained it as nicely as Boyd did. Most were miles off from his explanation. One even said, "They were poor, and went naked." If this is the case, it wouldn't have been "shameful".
Someone told me about John writing the gospel after he got back from Patmos. Thought that was a bit goofy, because he was quite old by then. Makes more sense that he would have written it when he was much younger.
The reason no one has written a book on Revelation, (although manyu have claimed to), is for the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables.
Matthew 13:10-17
10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11. And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he
hath.
13. Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And unto them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and
shall in no wise perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their
eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.
16. But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
17. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which ye see, and saw them not; and to hear the things
which ye hear, and heard them not.
1901 American Standard Version,
(Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1994.
Matthew 13:10-17
10. His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you always tell stories when you talk to the people?”
11. Then he explained to them, “You have been permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others have not.
12. To those who are open to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But to those who are not
listening, even what they have will be taken away from them.
13. That is why I tell these stories, because people see what I do, but they don’t really see. They hear what I say, but they don’t really hear, and they
don’t understand.
14. This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, which says:
‘You will hear my words,
but you will not understand;
you will see what I do,
but you will not perceive its meaning.
15. For the hearts of these people are hardened,
and their ears cannot hear,
and they have closed their eyes—
so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and let me heal them.’
16. “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.
17. I assure you, many prophets and godly people have longed to see and hear what you have seen and heard, but they could not.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation,
(Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.) 1996.
This is why no one has successfully written a book on Revelation Revealed.
Schuyler, I don't see the parallel. The disciples were with Jesus Himself; who among us has heard the Voice of God Embodied?
I have studied the prophecies, read many books and gone to several seminars and even led a Bible study on Revelation, and one thing I have learned is the folly of getting locked into any one interpretive system. The test is going to be what actually happens. If any of us could know exactly what would happen, and when, and how, then why would Jesus and others warn that His return would be "like a thief in the night", completely unexpected? But we know, from Acts 1:11 and many other Scriptures, that Jesus will return; and the Day of the Lord passages in both Testaments indicate that when He does, it will be as an avenging emperor, not as a suffering servant. That's what I look forward to--not in joy to see most of humanity reject Him and die, but with a hunger to see His face. His Kingdom will come on earth as in Heaven, and any number of Beasts can't stop it.
The prophecy of Revelation is not unlike the parables that Jesus spoke in that the parables were not easily understood by the finite mind of man. This
can only be discerned by the Spirit of the Living God. This is exactly what Jesus had said to his disciples.
I have no interpretive system. I rely solely on the revealings of the Spirit of the Living God through prayer and fasting. I have been studying the Bible
since August 23, 1966, 9:30 PM, Eastern Daylight Time.
From the years of 1966-1969, I was formally trained by man at a credited bible school in Dallas, Texas. From that time on I, like Paul, was trained
directly by the Holy Spirit.
The test is not so much in what is going to happen, but is actually going to be the testing by fire, the sword, the beasts of the field of one's faith. I cite a
classic example. Recently two news reporters from another country were kidnapped by terrorists. In order for them to be set free, they had to denounce
the west, (Christ and Christianity), and convert to islam at the edge of a sword. Do you have any idea as to what they did? In case you do not I will tell
you. They chose to deny Christ and Christianity and converted to Islam rather than be killed for their belief in Gos, Jesus adn the Holy Spirit. What do
you think will be their outcome when Jesus returns? Matthew 25:31-46
Yes, Jesus will return, not with pomp and circumstance, much like the Pope. He will return as a thief in the night. This is why he gave the warning to
heed the signs of the times, for when we see these things begin to come to pass, the we are to look up for our redemption draws near.
Yes, his kingdom will come, and already has if you have understanding. His kingdom is a spiritual kingdom which is why he told Pilate that his kingdom
is not of this world, for if it were then his disciples would fight. John 18:33-38
However, God acts within his set timeframe adn does not waver from it to the left or the right. The messenger confirmed to John on the Isle of Patmos
what Jesus had said regarding his return at sound of the seventh trumpet. Matthew 24:29-31; Mark13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28 Revelation 10:6-7
And the messenger told John that the seventh trumpet will seal the end of time. Time ends. Eternity begins. Revelation 10:6-7
That means that the seventh empire, the United States, must pass away so that the eighth empire can come to power. It is only then, during the eighth
empire that Jesus will return.
Now here is something to consider. How long does the eight empire reign before Jesus returns? How much longer will the United States remain being
the seventh empire? Only God knows that answer. Only God decides whether or not to reveal the length of time of either the seventh empire and the
eighth empire to someone. Revelation 17:1-18
God may reveal to someone how much longer the seventh empire will remain before giving way to the eighth empire. But I seriously doubt that God will
reveal the length of time the eighth empire will reign. If he did then we might suddenly find out to the year, month, week, day, hour and second that Jesus
will return. And this would alter what Jesus told to his disciples on the mount in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles. Matthew 24:1-14,(v3); 36-44; Mark 13:1-13,(v4); 32-37; Luke 21:5-19, (v7);29-33.
Question 1.
"Lord, when shall these things be?
Question 2.
What will be the sign of your coming?
Question 3.
And the end of the age?
Jesus reaffirmed this when he was on the mount just prior to his ascension in Acts 1:7 when ansering the questions of the disciples.
Question asked just before Jesus ascended.
"Lord, will you at this time restore again the Kingdom of Israel?
The return of Jesus has nothing to do with any number of beasts, (empires), trying to stop him from returning. It is during this eighth empire that Jesus will return. Exactly when he will return has never, nor shall be, revealed to anyone. Not the Son, nor the angels. But know this. His return will be sometime during the eighth empire. It is this eighth empire that will come against the saints and Jesus to make war. Three guesses as to who the winner will be, and the first two don't count.
I like the order of things here, you got a lot of intresting ideas in using them as nations, all has fallen at some point in time.
But saying now that the seventh is the United States (absolute) is still premature. You may be right, but again, are we certain?
And is it about our nations today at all?
And does it matter? A Christian is still a Christian, whether they understand prophecy or not. A Christian is still a Christian, even if they went through the "tribuation". (History is full of tribulation) Prophecy is more about teaching than "fortune telling". Many prophets told stories (like Jesus) that helped people change their lives.
An apocolypse was not a prophecy but a current state of affairs that was written about the Roman empire (Seven hills if you want to associate) and encouraged the current churches (the seven churches on the mail route it was passed through) to keep going and to make sure they are not allowing themselves to become like the people and society around them (as our churches are becoming today). This can apply to any generation.
If we want to say that we will go through tribulation and afterwards Jesus will reign on earth, then what do we tell those who have gone through their tribulations "the like the world has never seen" in their lifetimes? The black plague, earthquakes that leveled cities (not just current, but many times for thousands of years) and floods, volcanoes that covered cities, wars and rumors of wars that destroyed not only cities, but whole generations of people, genocide!!
It has happened over and over and over again. Now we do have something over nature that could spell disaster for humanity that wasnt' there a thousand years ago. Atomic bombs.
The only way we can survive that is Jesus. And that is about all the prophecy I can see and if we use them, we lose.
Thank you for you comment about the order of things. I originally set this page up in the form of a study guide, with references as to where to find the information I used at the bottom of that page.
Yes. I am certain that Revelation describes the United States as being the "seventh head', the one with the deadly wound, which was caused by an instrument of war. The sword, Revelation 13:14. Of this I have no doubt.
The head is representative of a kingdom or a government, if you will. A government that was split into two and then re-assembeld into the original head, just as it was before the split. Only one nation has that esteem. The United States. The United States government was split into two on:
December 20,1860: When South Carolina adopted the ordinance of secession.
Followed by:
January-May 1861: Ten states; Mississippi, Alabama, Florida,
Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas,
Tennessee, North Carolina, secede from the
Union.
From December 20, 1860 to:
May 29,1865: When the Proclamation of amnesty was declared by President
Andrew Johnson.
December 1865: Joint committee of Fifteen Reconstruction
appointed.
Thus starts the period of reconstruction. As
the end result of the reconstruction, along
with the proclamation of amnesty, all
belligerent, (ordinary), peoples were pardoned
on taking an oath of allegiance. Thereby
reinstituting the original form of government
upon all peoples, North and South.
All that was required was for the belligerent states, (the ones which adopted the ordinance of secession), to rejoin the union was to swear an oath of allegiance to the United States of America.
Footnote:
Has this ever happened to any other
government in history?
(Israel, Lebanon, Bosnia, etc.?)
It is about our nation in addition to only one more nation. What we are witness to today, is the doing away with the Super Power United States, the most powerful nation on the earth. When Egypt reigned, it was the most powerful nation on the earth, as was Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Now the United States is currently the most powerful nation on the earth. But not for very much longer. The United States is destined to become a "Third World Country".
Here is the sad note. The United States is soon destined to go the way of the last six empires, in order to make way for the next empire. One world government, United Nations.
Yes it does matter. Remember what Jesus said to his disciples? "When you see these things begin to come to pass, look up, for your redemption is drawing very near".
Jesu himself said, "You shall have tribulations and temptations all your life". Jesus never promised to take us out of the time of trouble, but he did pray to the father that we should be kept safe during these times of troubles.
Jesus did say that mockers will say that all things continue as they have since the beginning of time, where is the sign of his coming?
You are correct when you mentioned atomic weapons. This world conflict we are currently in "will" escalate into a nuclear holocaust. And the only thing that will keep us safe, is the trust in all the words of Jesus, the disciples, and all the prophets of old.
This is the scenario that is at hand.
In that day, the armies of the Sons of Darkness will out number the Children ofLight. then shall the Sons of Darkness gather all their armies and come up against the Children of Light to destroy the Children of Light. Then Lightening shall shine forth and destroy the Sons of Darkness, and the Children of Light shall shine forevermore.
This last conflict, which we are currently involved in, is a religious war. I don't care what George Bush or any other politican says. this is a religious war. The Sons of Darkness, (the muslims), versus the Children of Light, (all who truly trust in Jesus).
well, what other countries have been split, hmmm, Germany, Korea, Viet Nam all come to mind immediately. Now Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia are good candidates too. India (and Pakistan) might qualify... so there are some others, aren't there?
Things are often seen in offseting pairs, things like grace and truth. Removing the log from your own eye to see the splinter in the other persons eye.
When I see someone put so much time into the end times like this, my thoughts go to Amos 5, specifically Amos 5:18.
So, I typically have avoided Revelation because of this (not well balanced) but recently looked at it with fresh eyes.
The purpose of Revelation?
Rev 1:1 says it is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Now, while the rest of it is sort of interesting, the best chapters (that I care about anyway) is 1-4 & 22. The rest is interesting but difficult to apply to my life.
One other comment. The term Anti-Christ in the Bible is actually never (or rarely) used to point to one person but to those who are against Christ. At this pariticular point in time as all times since Christ, there are many anti-christs. In fact, the references I found are as follows I John 2:18,22, I John 4:3, 2 John 1:7.
One other comment. The term Anti-Christ in the Bible is actually never (or rarely) used to point to one person but to those who are against Christ. At this pariticular point in time as all times since Christ, there are many anti-christs. In fact, the references I found are as follows I John 2:18,22, I John 4:3, 2 John 1:7.
Those first 4 chapters containing some notes to the 7 churches are loaded with symbolism. You really can't take what they're saying without knowing a whole lot about what was going on in those churches, and you really can't tell what was going on by the symbolic writing in there.
Big example is the "shameful nakedness" of the Nicolatitans. Boyd explained that they were spiritually naked. Can't get this from just reading it. Most preachers just read or quote it out of context with the intent of making people think that all nakedness is shameful. Not so, to fit with the rest of the Bible.
Actually you can. It says that they were clothed and rich and full, not knowing that "you are naked, cold and hungry" implying that they were physically well off (and that city they were in was a strong trading center like New York), they were too involved in the world and allowing worldly beliefs to creep in.
relevation -- nice to see an intellectual discussion....
September 21 2006, 12:57 AM
Boyd and All:
I am very pleased to see an intellectual discussion -- not an emotional word meaning exactly word -- tereatment... We all are learning, not being chastised by those who hold differeing opinions -- it is like those blind feeling an elephant... each coming with a different description...
Antyhing can be proven from the bible, for example
Judas went out and hung himself...... do ye lkikewise all from the bible , but taken out of context....
Yes, we are all like a group of blind people trying to "discover" an elephant- none of us see the whole picture, or know all the facts.
There is only one "elephant" to be found, no matter the opinions of the seekers. Likewise, there is only one Truth, and He is a living person.
"Anything can be proven from the Bible..." only when those things are taken out of context. Spoken truthfully, there is only one thing the Bible reveals, no matter how we feel about it, or whether or not we prefer an intellectual arguement verses a literal interpretation.
Instead of prefering one type of interpretation over another, we need to ask for and seek God's Truth on everything. We won't always like it, but that isn't what's important. What's important is that we are able to see it when it is put before us.
I know that I don't see eye to eye with everybodies views on how to interpret scripture, but I choose not to debate those views in current postings. I may not be right, but I feel led to believe what I believe.
As long as a person has put his trust in Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior, the rest is debateable...
I am sorry to hear that you are not thrilled with my page. Granted, things are often offset by pairs. However, if one were to study the prophecies
regarding future kingdoms, one would discover that there are no offsetting pairs in prophecy regarding current and future kingdoms.
As I mentioned in my posted reply to Boyd, Jesus said regarding prophecy, "When you see these things begin to take place, then look up, for your
redemption draws very near.
I alluded to the fact that no where in Revelation or Daniel is mention of the "Anti-christ". A lot of people use these three chapters, Daniel 7; Revelation
13; and Revelation 17, as the foundation of their teachings about the "Anti-christ". Many of these same people have stated that these chapters are about
the "Anti-christ". And in so doing they have given the lable of "Anti-christ" not only to these prophecies, but also to this beast described in Revelation
13. In spite of this fact which you have stated. Which fact I alluded to on the cover page. This is the URL of my cover page:
www.brothersky.net/index3a.htm
A classic example of certain false teachings is that of a "Reveived Roman Empire". This couldn't be farther from the truth. All one has to do is to read
what the messenger told Daniel regarding these four beasts.
Daniel 7:11-12
11. I continued to watch because I could hear the little horn’s boastful speech. I kept watching until the fourth beast was killed and its body was
destroyed by fire.
12. As for the other three beasts, their authority was taken from them, but they were allowed to live for a while longer.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation,
(Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.) 1996.
11. “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed
and given to the burning flame.
12. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
The New King James Version,
(Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.
11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to
the burning flame.
12. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
So you see, according to what themesseenger told Daniel, "one beast" shall be destroyed and cast into the eternal flame, while the other "three beasts"
have their dominion taken away, but their lives are prolonged for a season and a time. Which beast is destroyed and given to the flame, and which three
beasts have their dominion taken away yet are kept for a season and a time? Here is a hint.....Revelation 13:2.
Also the reference to the ten horns in Daniel are not the same horns in Revelation 13. Compare the description of the horns in Daniel 7:7-8; Daniel 7:24
with Revelation 13. There is a link on the "main body" page titled, "Click here for a comparison between these two beasts", near the top of that page in
the first section with the Heading, "REVELATION 13:1-10 (1-8)".
You may have a more balanced look at this than some people I have run into.
I do think the balance to much of Revelation comes when looking at Amos 5:18-20 which reads:
(NIV) 18 Woe to you who long
for the day of the LORD!
Why do you long for the day of the LORD ?
That day will be darkness, not light.
19 It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.
20 Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light—
pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?
My heart is to teach the people not to just take others at their word when it comes to the teachings of the bible and/or prophecy, (pastors, evangelists, etc).
There is a section on my home page that contains teachings that do not agree with what is written in the bible titled, "Teachings that contradict what is written in the Bible". I wish for the people to actually study the scriptures in the same manner as a Berean, Acts 17:11-12.
Acts 17:10-15
10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Beroea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.
12. Many of them therefore believed; also of the Greek women of honorable estate, and of men, not a few.
13. But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was proclaimed of Paul at Beroea also, they came thither likewise, stirring up and troubling the multitudes.
14. And then immediately the brethren sent forth Paul to go as far as to the sea: and Silas and Timothy abode there still.
15. But they that conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timothy that they should come to him with all speed, they departed.
1901 American Standard Version,
(Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1994.
Acts 17:10-15
People in Berea Welcome the Message
10. That same night the Lord’s followers sent Paul and Silas on to Berea, and after they arrived, they went to the Jewish meeting place.
11. The people in Berea were much nicer than those in Thessalonica, and they gladly accepted the message. Day after day they studied the Scriptures to see if these things were true.
12. Many of them put their faith in the Lord, including some important Greek women and several men.
13. When the Jewish leaders in Thessalonica heard that Paul had been preaching God’s message in Berea, they went there and caused trouble by turning the crowds against Paul.
14. Right away the followers sent Paul down to the coast, but Silas and Timothy stayed in Berea.
15. Some men went with Paul as far as Athens, and then returned with instructions for Silas and Timothy to join him as soon as possible.
The Contemporary English [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System,
(Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995 by the American Bible Society.
Acts 17:10-15
10. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
13. But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.
14. And then immediately the brethren sent away Paul to go as it were to the sea: but Silas and Timotheus abode there still.
15. And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
Acts 17:10-15
Ministering at Berea
10. Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
12. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.
13. But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was preached by Paul at Berea, they came there also and stirred up the crowds.
14. Then immediately the brethren sent Paul away, to go to the sea; but both Silas and Timothy remained there.
15. So those who conducted Paul brought him to Athens; and receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him with all speed, they departed.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.
Acts 17:10-15
Paul and Silas in Berea
10. That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas to Berea. When they arrived there, they went to the synagogue.
11. And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to check up on Paul and Silas, to see if they were really teaching the truth.
12. As a result, many Jews believed, as did some of the prominent Greek women and many men.
13. But when some Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God in Berea, they went there and stirred up trouble.
14. The believers acted at once, sending Paul on to the coast, while Silas and Timothy remained behind.
15. Those escorting Paul went with him to Athens; then they returned to Berea with a message for Silas and Timothy to hurry and join him.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation, (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.) 1996.
There are also two pages with a short bio of myself, both titled, "Personal Profile". One is about my summer of 1966, and the other is from September
1996 to February 1997. Thought you might be interested.
I read the reference you made to Amos yesterday and I am not quite sure what you are implying(?) regarding your statement of Revelation and Amos. Any light on this subject will be most appreciated. Thank you
I don't mind people teaching about the Bible in a balanced way. There have been too many people who have been predicting the end, trying to hurry the end, etc. One of the more recent ones was Monte Kim Miller. Then there was the whole "88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will be in 1988" book. Both ignored the warning that Christ gave us about not knowing when his return will be.
I understand what you mean about people teaching the bible. There has been "too" many people who have tried to predict when Jesus will return and
those same people have failed miserably. I beleive it was Darby who tried to do the same thing with his "Dispensationalistic Chart". If one actually took
the time to sit down and study what is written in the bible and compare it to Darby's chart, they would soon discover many discrepensies between the two.
William Miller was another of those oh so many who tried to predict the return of Jesus. Twice. and he failed both times.
No, I am not one of those who are trying to predict the end nor am i trying to hurry the end. I am trying to wake the people up to the truth of what is
really written versus what someone says is written. If I am successful enough that even only one wakes up and starts studying and comparing what is
really written versus what someone says is written in the same manner of a true Berean, the I have found that pearl of great price.
