Hello. I'm a 20-year-old Christian male, living in Pennsylvania.
For the past few days, I've been reading various websites about naturism and how it fits in with Christianity, God, and the Bible.. and to be honest, I largely agree. My biggest question, really, is the same as the message title: Now what? Where do I go from here?
Before I make any big decisions, I would like to do some more reading (specifically, I haven't had time to read the relevant scriptures myself, quite yet). Are there any books which anyone would recommend? While there are many good Christian naturist websites out there (of course, including this one), one can only gather so much information from these, and I would love to be able to read all of this information compiled in one place.
But that's not all, of course. Making the assumption that my attitude toward the idea does not change after further research, prayer, and contemplation, I have a conundrum. I'm currently commuting to college, living at home with my mother and younger brother (my oldest brother is married and the brother between him and I is attending college). Simply put, how do I broach this subject with my family? It seems to me that this is an idea that they would not take well to, as, to be entirely honest, I'm afraid that they will make a decision about this based on their first impression. For example, with my older brother tonight, in the course of a long, convoluted, and many-subjected conversation, the topic somewhat came up. Essentially, to him, nudism/naturism is nearly analogous with voyeurism/exhibitionism.. basically, intrinsically related to sex. I believe at one point he said, "Sure, the idea may not be sex, but in practice? Come on."
I think this post has gone on long enough... for now, anyway. Thanks in advance to any suggestions/answers you can provide, and I look forward to, at the very least, interesting discussion, and hopefully learning and growth in Christ.
Nice to meet you.
P.S. For the record, my name, "kinorisuru", is a Japanese phrase essentially meaning "I'm interested." I'm not Japanese, but I do love to study language, and I couldn't think of a better name.
First of all, kinorisuru, we welcome you. Thanks for your interest and for taking the time to post here. Your questions are very welcome and you are the very type of people we are looking to help and encourage. I know you will get a swell of information from other people here who have helped countless others over time.
In fact, some of the people here were in your same situation not too long ago.
Single, young, going to college and helping your family understand that you can think for yourself. Quite a challenge! They will probably wonder if all that colleging is going to your head in a way they were not counting on.
But when it comes to who you are inside, you learn that over the years and it will come out in ways your family and friends will not expect.
First of all, you are doing the right thing by going out first and getting an education on naturism and how it relates to the Christian.
You may want to start getting publications out there such as Nude and Natural, known in the nudist community as "N" Magazine for their big "n" they have on the front.
You can join it as a national club. You can also join up with AANR(American Association for Nude Recreation) and get their monthly newspaper (in a manilla envelope) that is chock full of information.
205 was the first real study I did in 96 or 97 in the N magazine I purchased at Borders Bookstore. Also the first magazine I ever bought for Naturism.
It forced me to sit down and do some real study since it pulled theories and scriptures out of the bible and I had to make sure it was correct and not just stuff they pulled without understanding. Too many people read into the scriptures and not get the full picture and come up with strange ideas. So that was the catalyst that got me started into what now became my website.
Speaking of my website, you will find some books linked on the BACN Main Page towards the bottom. You can make that side bar minimize. One of these days, I'll have the money to purchase the site location and get rid of that bar.
Anyway, its a list of books you can order if you want.
Others here will be glad to add to your information.
But here are some things you do need to make sure of.
When you broach the subject of naturism, make sure you are not being defensive. LISTEN to them. LET them say what they need to say. Make sure you understand and let them help you understand. That way, when they see you understanding them, they will be more willing to listen to you and understand you.
Logic does not always work, especially for women. Feelings are more at play here. You may be able to outlogic someone but that will not work if they see one thorn in the flower garden. They need to understand what that thorn is and why it is there.
Having publications, with photos, will help some. Since you are a college student and research is part of your life, maybe saying something like, "I am doing a social research on this growing phenomenon called Naturism or Nudism in America. Here is what I found out so far. Did you know that nudism is actually catching on in Christianity?" Or something like that. You play it your way.
I am spearheading with a lot of help with some here on this Forum, a group called "CNC" or Christian Nudist Convocation where we gather at least once a year at a specific location (Nudist Resort) to fellowship, study, hold church services and bond as Christians and Naturists. Its a Family gathering of Christian Naturists across the country and even from over seas! Our last gather in '05, we had one man from England who happened to be a pastor in the Church of England! Awesome!?
We hope he can make it this year, but maybe he can get it going strong there too.
This year, we will have two events one week apart. The "Eastern" version will be in Tennessee, the "Midwest" version will be in Missouri. Details later.
You will also want to look up a very well organized and popular "Fig Leaf Forum" you can get through email or if you want, snail mail. I have had several articles published there and many others from around the world have published there. He also picks up forums like this when there is a very interesting Christian Naturist subject that has some food for thought. John Kundert (Canadian) edits it and puts some serious time into it. Don't know how he does it!
Well, you though you rambled on, I am going haywire here. The rest will pick up and add more to this.
Of course, you can always email me (see link) and post more here. And...one more thing...we have a Monday Night Chat at 8:30 PM EST (American) if you want to join us there as well. See link at top of main forum page.
With God's blessing on you AND especially, your family,
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
Wow, I'm about two thirds of the way through the 205 Arguments, and I'm amazed.. that's a LOT of information, pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a lot! I haven't quite had the chance to look at any local bookstores for Nude and Natural, but a quick online search of their inventories seems to suggest they don't have it... That's unfortunate. I guess that just means I'll have to order it online, or something. No big deal, really.
Thanks for the tip on listening vs. being defensive. My one problem actually lies in the pictures, though I have no doubt they would likely, in the end, be very helpful in illustrating the point. However, I think that there is little to no differentiation between "nude photographs" and "pornography" in my family -- though I sense that this is more a cultural problem. To be honest, I have been having a difficult time justifying this to myself, as well. I understand, rationally, that in a socially nude culture, photographs taken socially will also, by definition, be nude, and I also understand that that is not an implicitly bad thing.. but I have trouble separating the concepts in my mind (perhaps because I'm just beginning to approach the culture?).
One thing that, very unfortunately, reinforced that in my mind, was the website purenudism.net (or at least, I think that was it.. I'd rather not remember, to be honest), which, at least at the first glance I gave it, seems more to be a site catering to voyeurism.. the facts that it: 1) is a pay site, 2) advertises its image archive in terms of size, and 3) advertises "adult" content included with membership -- all these things seem to support that. And while I can separate that from the intent which is meant behind nudism rationally, I think I'm having trouble to do so emotionally.. Any thoughts or suggestions on this?
Getting back to the point, however: even if I'm able to justify non-sexual nude photography to myself, how do I do so to a family that sees such material as pornographic?
I'm pretty sure I'm not ready for a step as large as the CNC yet, though I absolutely wish you well with it, and hopes everything goes as planned -- and better! I had looked at the Fig Leaf Forum briefly, but didn't get a chance to look in depth as I have with some other sites (like this one )
Anyway, thanks a lot for the information and all the suggestions!
Looks like you got a lot of hits with your question and thats an "I told you they would come".
As for pictures, there are plenty of porn sites that pretend they are naturist sites. They are not.
What you will find in magazines like Nude and Natural is that most of the people there are in no shape for the olympics! You will not find pornographic looking pictures there.
If any one can make "porn" out of these pictures, they are really working hard at it! (Sorry folks, didn't mean to get that personal)
Well, better shut my mouth here. Anyway, stay away from "pay for" sites unless they are actual naturist websites and the only good ones that you "pay" for are the national organizations like AANR and TNS.
You are welcome to join us here and don't forget to check into the Fig Leaf Forum for more newsletters that come by email. LOTS of good stuff there!
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
I know what you mean about families not being able to separate, "nude photographs," and "pornography." Around 1967 Life magazine ran a photo of a nude mother lying on her side reaching out for her new, also nude, baby. That did not sit well with my mother AT ALL. I distincly remember thinking, at about 16, how nice her breast and nipple looked, but on her side not much at all was showing. It just seemed to be a nice, warm photo of a mother bonding with her baby. Still, too racy for some tastes.
Another good site is www.Naturistlife.com which is a good Christian online magazine. and this new book by Mr Cunningham---
Nudity & Christianity
By Jim C. Cunningham
'Most of the aspects of our lifestyle are unwilled; much of what we do is done because it was how we were reared or how "everybody else" does them. Very few people are courageous enough to question what "everybody else" deems obvious and "common sense," though, when asked, they can only bluster and mumble in response because they really have no clue why they do the things they do and uphold so "religiously."
'So I want to stir things up a bit — no, I want to stir things up a lot, and especially among theologians of both the professional and "armchair" varieties. I want them to contemplate and discuss the topics in this book seriously.'
— From the Foreword
To obtain an autographed copy, see jimccunningham.com.
Or order directly from AuthorHouse online by clicking here.
Welcome!! I always enjoy hearing about somebody who is open-minded enough to at least look into naturism. Good for you.
Boyd has already given you some good advice and pointed you towards more, but I do have one thing I may be able to help yo with. You said that you haven't had time to look at the Scripture verses concerning nakedness in the Bible; well, I have an article that I wrote that covers that very topic. I believe that I have covered most, if not all verses that mention nakedness directly, and even a few of the ones that touch a related subject or frame of mind. There's a surprising amount of them!!
If you would like to read it I would be more than happy to send it to you. You can either contact me directly (I help Boyd out here on the MB sometimes, so I should be at least a little trustworthy... ), or if you prefer you could go through Boyd, or however else you might want to do it.
Don't worry too much about your family. Like you said, naturism has nothing to do with sex, and whether or not they believe that it doesn't change the truth of it. Ultimately God is the one you (and them, and the rest of us...) will have to answer to, so listen mainly to what He has to say to you on the subject. Pray about it. Who knows... maybe your the one who is supposed to teach them a thing or two by your example of simple, non-sexual nakedness. Show them that it doesn't have to just be about sex.
Anyway... Just let us know what we can do to help.
We don't mind for people who have legitimate questions and comments. Besides, no one can go on as much as Boyd (LOL). That boy could talk the fur off a dog (huh?). Anyway, also try these three sites. Net Nude: http://www.naturist-christians.org, Naturist Christians: http://www.netnude.com and a Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Home_Naturist_5/. Net Nude's discussion boards have a Christian section if you have any questions specific to that area.
I think your brother would have to actually experience social nudity to see how we're not a bunch of sex fiends. If you saw how ordinary and everyday we all are, you'd know how un-sexual we are sometimes. Hey, walk around any mall and that's the mix of people in a club or resort. Nuff said? Welcome aboard.
It's wonderful to have you here! I'm a 24yo Christian woman, and I also choose to practice naturism here and there. I may not be nude as much as possible, but when I want to and it is not inappropriate, I get nude.
I live in Texas, and am quite a ways away from any fellow nudists that I have heard of in this area of the US. That kind of puts a damper on much social nudity, although I have been naked with a couple of friends from college in a social way.
You were speaking about having trouble differentiating between pornography and nude artwork and photography. I think you should ask yourself a simple question while looking at some nude photography. Ask, "Is the purpose of this photograph/painting/drawing, etc. to be sexual?" Obviously a nude picture of a mother and her child does not have a purpose of being sexual. The statue of David, in my opinion, is not meant to be sexual. Jordan Matter, a photographer in NYC, has a project called Uncovered in which his subjects appear topfree doing everyday things as they go along. You can see his work at http://www.jordanmatter.com - I find it very inspiring!
I hope that this helps you in your study of naturism/nudism! I look forward to getting to know you better as you post more! :-D
Laura
P.S. There is even a video on the Jordan Matter website in which an older woman condemns Matter and his subject for "sinning and making everyone else sin" - perhaps some were sinning, but with her gathering EVERYONE's attention and directing it toward the photography, she wasn't 'helping' matters.
Ahhh, yes, I remember seeing his work. Great stuff. I believe he took dozens of photos of topfree women around New York because its legal there even though many women catch alot of flack for it. I'm wondering if this trend could hopefully spread across the country.
Hi! Thanks for the welcome, and for the advice. I did take a look at that website, and I agree that it is not pornography -- like I said, rationally speaking, I'm fully able to tell the difference (though the question you posed, "is this meant to be sexual?" is definitely a big helper in that area).. it's just that I've spent the first twenty years of my life being taught that "nudity is sexual, and pictures of nudity are pornography" -- and it's hard to separate that -- for lack of a better word -- indoctrination from what I'm now recognizing as the truth.
Again, thanks for the advice and encouragement. Everyone here is so very helpful and friendly. I've spent many years on the internet (I'm a big computer geek), and it's rare to find a close-knit, open, friendly community like that. Definitely a good thing, though.
Thanks for pointing us to Jordans site. Those are some great photos. And they are not pornographic at all unless, like that woman, wants to make it pornographic.
I noticed the last picture in the group where a mother in the background was hiding her sons eyes and pulling him through the area quickly. Apparently, she thought is was a bad thing too.
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
I've sat in a Montagnard house made out of bamboo, through whose poles you could easily see outside and through whose poles enough light was let in to use ASA 25 film inside with NO FLASH to get pictures inside. As I sat there one day, I looked through the slots and saw Montagnard women working topless as they traditionally did. They'd quit going topless because they found they were leared at by the French and probably worse by the Americans.
Some day, we here in America will maybe be able to work in our gardens in suburban and urban settings without clothes when the weather permits.
Hi Kinorisuru and welcome. I've been a Christian since age 17 (nearly 44 years), and I enjoy the freedom I have in Christ to be natural. I can't understand how people who believe that God created the human body can also believe that He is offended by it.
I live full time in a nudist resort in Florida, and I'm active in a Baptist church. They don't know where I live, although they do have my address. I'm no more ashamed of being a nudist than I am of being a Christian, and I believe the two are quite compatible.
Hey everybody. Good to meet all of you! Thanks for all the welcome and good advice you've given me so far. Haven't had a chance to read anymore of the 205 Arguments yet (I think I'm still somewhere around #125).. I'm giving what I've read so far a bit of time to sink in. But other than that, I'm probably going to order the latest issue of Nude and Natural tomorrow, when is which I'll read the latest issue of the Fig Leaf Forum newsletter, also. Again, thanks so much for suggesting all of these things to me.. they're really informative, to say the least. For now, though, I think I'm done asking questions (at least until I read some more ), so does anyone have any questions for me? Haha.
It's really late, so I'll keep it short: Tell us more about yourself. First name? (if you are comfortable with sharing that, obviously)...married/single? Schooling? church that you attend (denomination, not specific location)? Favorite hobbies? Shoe size? (just kidding about the shoe size! )
Yea, it is pretty late.. I've been awake for nearly two days now. I should probably sleep after this. ^^; Well, like I said, I'm 20 years old and male. I am single, currently attending a local community college, this semester. Next semester I'll be transferring to a full university -- probably Ohio State or Ohio University.. but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, I suppose. In any case, I'm studying both Computer Science and Linguistics, and I am aiming to go for the long haul and get my PhD in either Linguistics or, perhaps if I'm feeling a bit daring, Computational Linguistics.
I have attended a non-denominational Christian church (though I think the designation of "non-denominational" is somewhat silly) since about 1995, though recently I have been attending an discussion group aimed at college-age kids which is off-shoot from the main church (we meet at a local coffee house).
As mentioned above, I'm studying Computer Science and Linguistics, and there's really only one reason for that: those are the two things which I enjoy, as hobbies, most. I've been working with Computers and the internet for many years, and have been doing web application development for nearly 7 years (got started early! ), along with database design and development for almost as long. My interest in languages is a bit newer.. it's only come around in the past 3 or 4 years or so. I study Japanese, as mentioned in my first post, as a hobby.. unfortunately, I haven't had the privilege of being able to take any real classes yet, but despite that I spend some of my free time translating Japanese comics into English for a couple different online communities I frequent.
Oh yea, and, I don't think that giving out my first name is a problem. It's Matthew. Again, nice to meet you all, and I hope this gives you a little insight into who I am.
And U no how 2 spel! Not bad for a 20 yo on the internet!
Anyway, sounds like you got a lot going on! I'm a Computer support technition for large offices but my first career was in sign painting which includes truck lettering to billboards. I have done cartooning as a hobby and have created my own strips, but never published. I suppose I was afraid I would never quite "finish" it and drop it if I do publish. That is one thing they always worry about is getting a good cartoonist who never gets the work out there. I did not want to commit and then run out of material after a dozen strips.
Now I am thinking of doing nude cartooning and publish it on the internet. Loxie and Zoot is the latest and greatest continual comic going on right now. I already got the characters, just need to get it out there.
My BIL had learned Japanese because he was the VP of Motorolas development department for a long time in Atlanta. Spent about 25% of his time in Japan it seems. He is doing something else now, but great valuable stuff he took with him!
I only know two languages myself. English and Southern. Still learning the English stuff.
Definately work on the Data Base design. Seems there is plenty of work for that. But computer cartooning and animation is strong too right now.
A lot of churches, especially startups, are taking the "Non-Denominational" route since it is less restrictive and less political. You can stick with the basics and branch out in the direction of the holy spirit.
May you "Live Nude and Prosper"
Boyd Allen "May the Lord protect our nudity from the sight of those who will not benefit, and may he allow us to be seen by those who will."
Haha, yea, I know the feeling that so few people on the internet seem to be able to spell. It's really bothersome at times, especially when you know the offender personally, and know that they are actually an intelligent person (my oldest brother and many of my good friends are this way).
I took a brief look at Loxie and Zoot.. looks pretty good at first glance, though I'll have to get used to reading left-to-right again. While English reads left-to-right horizontally, Japanese reads right-to-left vertically. It takes a bit to get used to, but after you do, it's hard to switch back and forth. ^^ Hopefully, after getting my Bachelor's degree, I'll be able to stick to my plan of going to Japan for a few years to teach English in an elementary or middle school.
I wish I had any form of actual artistic skill. That'd be nice. I've tried my hand at several different instruments (drums, harmonica, guitar, and a few others), to no avail, and I'm very bad at drawing, too. The closest thing I have to art is computer programming. All I do with comics, really, is translate the text from Japanese to English, which I can do at about a middle school level if I try really hard.
In regards to starting your own webcomic, though, I say: go for it! Comic Genesis, which used to be known as Keenspace, is a good, free place to host webcomics. I look forward to reading yours if you ever do start it.
It's amazing how many of us naturists are artists of some sort or another. I'm a musician myself; play flute, oboe, several other woodwinds, and some keyboards. I've hypothesized that arts people tend to be more open to nudism; we look at the world a little differently anyway, and aren't afraid to question "traditional wisdom."
When I was first researching naturism, some six years ago, one of the things I did was to seek out naturist photos on the Internet, making sure I got the real thing and not pornography labeled "naturism." :rolls eyes: I saturated myself with them until I could look at them all day with no sign of arousal. It worked well enough, along with Scripture research and going naked in my own apartment (I live by myself), that when I finally experienced social nudity myself, 3 1/2 years ago, it took me about as long to get comfortable in the nude as to take off my clothes.
We're glad you're here, where you shall learn the truth about nudity that will set you free from clothes-bondage.
Boyd and others have pointed you in the right direction with good publications and sources to read. I started off with Clothed With The Sun magazine, which is now "N", published by the Naturist Society. This year, my wife should let me rejoin because I'll be 65, and the membership fee drops a lot.
We have an adopted daughter who's now living in Blacklick and teaching kindergarten in the Columbus school system. She was recently converted and worships at one of those non-demoninational churches on the east side of Columbus, just SW of her condo she bought. It's the Graham Road church of Christ. Really great group. Wish our congregation was so dynamic. Met one of our college kids from UVa who was working over there this last summer when we visited there. Katsumi gave him a ride back. He didn't have a car.
Yeah, she's Japanese. She was our host daughter in Baton Rouge for 5 years. She got hooked up with a fellow Christian kindergarten teacher who was largely instrumental in getting her converted. Like to think we had some effect, but Valerie is really a good Christian lady.
