Me and Denice had our counselling session with our pastor today. It went smooth, but some pretty strong things were said. I still have that weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. I don't want to say to much about it, but you can [url=http://www.spiritfx.com/2007/11/10/its-not-just-me-anymore]read the blog[/url] I posted if you want. Oh, by the way, Denice reads this forum (Hi Baby). Feel free to jump in any time. We are all believers here.
I am not going to register on that other Web site just to post what I am writing here.
You talk about social nudity and nudity at home just between husband and wife. Those are two separate issues, even to most church folks who don't know beans about naturism.
I don't know any pastor with solid Bible training who would say that it is a sin for a man and wife to be nude in private. The Bible clearly teaches that they are one flesh.
If a woman is offended by nudity of her husband in private (or visa versa), it is a personal problem, not anything that he or she can justify by Bible verses.
However we should have compassion on people with phobias, emotional problems, etc.
You may be a little hasty in concluding that never being nude again at home except for showers, sleep and sex is helpful in the long run. Perhaps in the short run, but it seems to me more like avoiding personal growth than staying virtuous.
I would also be hesitant to put too much emphasis on the opinion of a pastor who is not a naturist and probably doesn't understand the dynamics of social nudity and its benefits. We see social nudity on a much grander scale in Europe and the Europeans as a whole have a lot healthier attitude about innocent family outdoor nudity than most Americans.
You are correct in saying that most of a naturist's freedom is a freedom of the mind.
I will keep both of you in my prayers for continued personal growth and greater harmony. Those are not mutually exclusive goals.
I had a wife who was dead set against nudity even in the home. I compromised and was miserable. Yes, I loved her--even after she stopped loving me. I still loved her when she left me. I still loved her after she divorced me. It took a while to get over her, but I finally did. Now I will live alone and be happy in my single and nude life. I hope it works for you; it didn't work for me. Of course, my wife had other issues with me--mostly that I wasn't perfect like she was. LOL!
Your desire not to offend your wife is very good and praiseworthy. However, if naturism is sinless, beneficial and holy, as we believe it is, then why should you be content with things as they are, with a beloved wife who still believes something we know to be false?
If it were possible, I'd suggest a second opinion. If that's not possible, then now is the time for prayer and extensive dialogue, just the two of you. (Maybe after a rest and period of restoration.)
Romans 14 is Pauls discussion of Weaker brothers (and sisters) concerned with eating meat offered to idols.
In there, Paul tells us to bend to the beliefs of the weaker one. Pastor Jeff Bowman talks about a couple of things related to your session with your Pastor & Denice (hi Denice).
Jeff preached a sermon a few years ago on "Good Nudity" which you can find (text) at that link. With regards to Romans 14, he also preached on "Stumbling Blocks", the term used to describe the action of your actions causing someone else's' relationship with Jesus suffer.
Pastor Jeff is a theologian (someone who studies God) and currently runs a clothing-optional resort. The reason I refer you to his site is not because of his approval of nudity but because he does present things with a quite balanced view. If you go to the main page, you can also get the audio of the Good Nudity sermon.
I can understand Denice's reservations as our society is quite sexually charged and, most of the time, the only time nudity is portrayed is associated with sex. Sex, in turn, has been largely ignored within the Church, except to condemn it. As a result, the Church also de-emphasises the good in sex within the confines of marriage. Then, on top of all that, there is all the emotional baggage that may come with sex.
As a result, without a Biblical balance, nudity is absurd and, at times, offensive.
(By the way Erick, I took the liberty to subscribe to SpritFX some time ago and find it interesting.)
I've actually read and listened to almost all of Pastor Jeff's material. I've learned a lot from him. Our pastor pulled most of the typical things on me that he discusses, like 'avoiding the appearance of evil,' and 'stumbling blocks.' I could have defended myself and my beliefs much more aggressively than what I did, but I was really trying to hear my wife's concerns in all this. I love her so much, and I really don't want to push her away from me. I suppose for now, I will pray that God will open her eyes concerning this subject, and allow her to have some breathing room. The Holy Spirit can do more that I can.
You made the reference to your wife being the weaker beleiver. What are you two doing together to bring you both up to the same page spiritually? And growing from there? As important as being on the same page in regards to naturism is, it fails to compare at all to being on the same page spiritually is. I encourge you both to sit down together and do some indepth Bible study (something I need to do more of myself) and draw closer to God and each other through the study of God and praying together. I been through what you are going through, only in my case it wasn't naturism to be the offending factor. I tried for several years to make it work, but unfortunatly, my wife did not have the same desire. No matter how much I tried myself or how much I gave into her issues, I could never be pleasing to either one of us, and I was less than what God had called me to be. Although she called herself a Christian, prayer, Bible study, and church attendence was/is not a priority for her so I could not draw closer to her through Bible study because she had/has no desire to grow in the grace of the Lord. Without, coming together in prayer and study, I don't think anything can hold a marriage together when there is a difference of opinions stressing it.
As you do the Bible study together, don't just seek out your own agenda, but let her needs dictate where to start your study and go from there. As you come upon scripture that means something to you in one way or another, go ahead and discuss why you believe that scripture to say thus and so to you and give her the same chance to speak on her beliefs. Then go on, it's not your job to correct her beliefs if they're wrong, but your job is to simply lead her through the study so that her beliefs will become formed by what she has studied, prayed about, and knows without a dought to be true. It's time that Christians become "United in Christ" (especially in our marriages) But that only comes by becoming 'ONE' in developing our relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, our Creator and Redeemer. Set aside some time every day together for this, even if it's only 15-30 minutes, but be consistant in coming together for study and prayer.
Absolutely great advice! We used to read the Word and pray together all the time. I guess we fell out of the habit of doing these things together a while back. We both still pray and study, but rarely together. We use our busy schedules as an excuse, but we know what we are supposed to be doing. I have thought for a while that this is really the root of our problems. We need to put Jesus first again, where He belongs. I'm going to make it a point from now on to have some spiritual development time together with Denice every day.
I just wanted to thank you all for your advice and prayers. It has all helped a lot.
One of the things that was brought out in our counselling session was the fact that all of my friends who are Christian Naturists are people that I have not met in person, but only online. What I wanted to say (but didn't) is how I would love to meet you all in person, but I can't because they think it would be wrong for me to do so. They think I would be setting myself up for temptation by going to a naturist resort to study the Bible and have fellowship with like minded believers. I don't allow lust into my mind, clothed or unclothed! That's probably what hurts the most. I have never given my wife a reason to doubt my intentions, but yet she doesn't trust me. I know she has been hurt before, but I would rather eat a bullet that hurt her. (sigh)
Well, I don't know if I will ever be able to meet any of you all in person. However, I still consider you all to be my friends.
(with deep respect to the book of that title, which is a very good book)
Your intentions, yes, but has she considered our intentions? Does she take the time to get to know who we are?
People with bad or wrong intentions cannot run a forum this long without going off track to their real intentions. You can start back to the very first post, and you will see people with wrong intentions over the years, but you will also see a team of Christians, including yours truely here, putting it down and keeping this forum on track.
And you also see our intentions with the success of CNC and our potential growth.
The resorts cannot live a lie for very long. The public is constantly watching. We cannot live a lie for very long. Even you have not shown anything less than a Christian attitude, even while a naturist, to your wife, family and church. But can they see that? Or do they see only what they perceive as wrong?
Do they not see people sinning and wearing clothes? Using clothing for their sinful life and proudly show it off with their clothing? Yet we show nothing but what God himself created and called "Very good" and people see the opposite.
So I ask you to take some more time and view the evidence with prayer.
If you do see us going of the path we started out with, and using it to our selfish and non-Christian way, then by all means, let us know.
If that's not possible, then now is the time for prayer and extensive dialogue, just the two of you. (Maybe after a rest and period of restoration.)