I try to find a balance between freedom in grace, and living a sanctified life. I have heard many people on this site talk about different alcoholic drinks. I would love to know how you all feel about Christians and alcohol. I am really curious to see what all the different responses may be. This is not a set up for a preaching. I am just trying to work out where the line is between grace and rebellion. On some things I believe I am too uptight, and then sometimes I need to tighten up more. I would love to know where people stand on this topic and I look forward to hearing all the responses. I know this site is about Christian naturism, but if this helps link it together... I have seen a lot of drinking at the resorts. biggrizzlybare
Boy, you are correct. There is A LOT of drinking at clubs and resorts. But, to be fair, many people are away on vacation and may not normally imbibe that much at home. I know when we camp out and I don't have to drive home I will have beers throughout the day more than I normally might at home. If we are there for the day, then no, none for me. The clubs do have social activities and that tends to accentuate the use, too. I don't think drinking is a sin in itself, but the overuse of alcohol is. It makes us people that we aren't or shouldn't be. Much like the breaking of bread and drinking of wine in Biblical times, a sociable drink can open up a discussion of Christian nudism between friends.
I'll let the Bible draw the line then go from there.
It draws the line at being drunk. It also says to not be addicted (a drunkard).
What does that mean in todays society.
I believe alcohol can be healthy in moderation. Paul seems to support that. I also believe that the "legal limits" for driving are probably a little lower than what we might typically call "drunk".
That being said. We have a moral obligation not to drink and drive. Not to loose control and to not be addicted.
I also believe there are parallels between drinking and nudism in the way Christians should react and handle it. In this case, I think Boyd's motto on nudity applies here as well.
I have seen a lot of abuse when churches open up their minds and allow alcohol. Children have a disadvantage today because they are not allowed to drink alcohol until a certain age. In some states, as early as 18, others not until 21. Results are usually like sex. You cannot under any circumstances until that age, then you can have all you want. So you have abuse because of a lack of teaching in life.
I see too much alcohol and lying around like beached whales at these resorts and it disappoints me. I enjoy a beer or two, and usually, that is enough, but would not feel comfortable with much more.
If I have company and want a beer, I always offer it to them. If they decline, I always ask if it would bother them if I had one. Usually, they say no. (Maybe I should ask them about being nude!)
As for the biblical history of alcohol, wine was a very central part of services, even before Christ. Beer was created (probably not as good) by Egyptians and the Israelites carried the recipe with them. The use of "strong drink" was even encouraged by God on occasion. But never to excess or drunkenness.
The central part of the Passover and later, Communion, was the wine. I don't think a party was all that exciting if Jesus created grape juice out of water. Wine was a very serious business and you don't mess with it. And he ended up with the best wine of the party! Jesus used "wine skins" in his example of what would happen if you put new wine into old wineskins (Trying to mix the old covenant into the new). That was not a slip. Jesus meant wine. You don't put grape juice in a bag and expect it to last.
One of the main reasons wine and beer was so popular was not just it's taste and unique qualities, but for making grain and fruits last much longer. They had plenty of grain and fruits and found that along with drying and baking, you can turn it into something you can drink.
The bible never condemned the use of alcohol any more than nudity. But it does have it's cautions to anything abused.
The early church, even up unto the 1800's never condemned the use of wine (though a few minor splinter groups may have). It was not until the Prohibition that even practical use of alcohol was considered a sin. It went into extreme ideas to the point where we have "Blue Laws" today. If you grow up thinking and being taught strongly that the use of alcohol is a sin, then it does not matter what the history of the church is or what the bible really says. Many will swear on the same bible that it is sin, even though Jesus used it himself. Try telling the same people that Jesus was baptized naked and rose from the grave and left the tomb naked!
I actually meant to bring some beer to our last CNC just so I can show that we do not condemn the use of beer or wine. But forgot to bring it. Goes to show how much I was thinking about it. But, had someone at the resort offered me a beer, I probably would have said "Sure, thanks!" (even if it was Old Milwaukee Light...shudder) But I would not have made a big deal out of it or drunk to excess.
I agree that the prohibition movement seems to have been the impetus for the mantra, "alcohol consumption (even in moderation) is a sin". I remember one preacher who said that one sip of beer meant that you were not sober and therefore in a state of mortal sin. This same preacher asked all the teenagers to burn their secular music at a big bonfire in the church parking lot. (as an aside, some music has deplorable lyrics, but this pastor said that the rock beat was devilish and invited demon possession even if there were no lyrics).
Nudist camps historically banned alcohol on their grounds. Not sure of the exact reason, though nudist venues were essentially health resorts that happened to promote nudity as part of the overall health platform.
I am not opposed to a total ban (a few ounces is actually healthy), but think that it can clash with the family atmosphere if not handled properly both by the individual and by the resort.
For instance, my favorite resort used to have open keg right next to the pool on Saturday afternoons, even on days when lots of kids were there. Nothing untoward ever happened, the keg and drinking guests were closely monitored, but they eventually stopped the keg parties. A few guests overindulged in the beer. The beer was free, but guests were strongly encouraged to pay to help defray costs. However they did not forbid BYOB.
When I see chain-smoking, hard-drinking, sunburnt couch potatoes talking about how healthy naturism is, all I can say is "Huh?"
This ain't your grandpa's nudism. Can't we take a few steps back toward the common sense and good health that represented the nudist movement of other years?
"(as an aside, some music has deplorable lyrics, but this pastor said that the rock beat was devilish and invited demon possession even if there were no lyrics)."
Yeah. I read a book once, "The Day Music Died" by Bob Larsen, that made the same point, even going so far as to say that syncopation and the emphasis on low frequencies were demonic. I wonder what he thought about J.S. Bach's organ music?! lol
As for alcohol, I agree with everyone else who's weighed in that the Bible does not condemn drinking, only drunkenness. I enjoy a glass of wine occasionally, and have even been known to taste stronger drinks and cocktails. (Gotta be careful with those mixed drinks, though; you never know how much is really in them. Once at a post-concert orchestra party I drank my usual glass of wine, then after a while picked up something that looked like green lemonade. It was a margarita pitcher! oops! Fortunately, I didn't have to drive myself home. lol )
Alcohol is like a lot of other things--unhealthy if done to excess, and OK if done moderately. When a person consistently drinks him/herself into a stupor and can't remember anything the next day, drinking has become a problem. Too many drinks affect one's ability to think reasonably, affects their coordination, affects their disposition. I've seen some mean drunks, and some nice ones. The only time my dad treated me good was when he was drunk. Unfortunately, that was only on Friday nights, but my sweet, loving mother would get mean and impossible to be around.
Before I had to give up alcohol after developing diabetes and because of the sugar content, I would have an occasional glass of wine. I nearly destroyed my stomach back in 1970 with vodka, and I wouldn't use strong drink any more if I could drink. I totally dislike the taste and small of beer. That leaves only wine, but unfortunately there is no sugar-free wine as far as I know. I'm sure it would taste odd if there was. I also like wine coolers, but again, they have sugar.
A related question: What about marijuana? I know it's completely illegal in the US now, but in the last several years I've been around a lot of people who did it regularly--one of the bands I'm in "passes the peace pipe" before every rehearsal!--and it seems to have no worse effect on them than moderate drinking. Here in Denver we've passed several pro-marijuana initiatives, including a statewide medical-marijuana law and an initiative that requests the Denver police to make marijuana possession their lowest priority. And I've come across some research, admittedly pro-cannabis, that suggests that cannabis has been around about as long as alcohol, with even fewer negative side effects. I've never done it myself, and have no interest now--but what if I were suddenly to develop terminal cancer of some type?
(Please! That's the only drug I'm asking about; I have no interest in liberalizing our laws and views about any other drug, so don't accuse me of Trying To End The War On Drugs. )
Sailors used to smoke their rope when they get a chance. Rope was made of hemp (thus hemp rope) which is..you guessed it...
But we do have to set the right example and if someone doesn't want to drink alcohol, then no problem. But in a group like CNC, we would allow it, but with moderation.
I like to encourage Communion at at CNC event, and I usually prefer wine. Seems grape juice doesn't quite cut it for me, but I cannot make that dicision for others. So we make grape juice available as well. So far, everybody took the wine.
I'm sure if the early church saw our services today with grape juice and little pieces of white bread, would look at us like we were naked or something! In fact, they would probably tolerate us being naked than see us take the communion the way we do today!
Legalizing supervised use of medical marijuana is a separate issue from total legalization of recreational marijuana.
My nurse administered an opium product (morphine) last year after surgery when the pain became too great. It was a one-time use and I have no desire to go back to it legally or illegally.
There is no level of consumption at which inhaling smoke (marijuana or otherwise) is beneficial. Regular consumption of a couple ounces of red wine are proved to be beneficial.
It could be argued that we should ban both tobacco and pot or legalize both.
Boyd, smoking hemp rope won't give you a buzz. The THC is simply too low to have any meaningful effect. The variety of cannabis that is used for getting high has been selected through many generations of careful breeding.
Might as well eat poppy seed muffins til you bust! The opium in food-grade poppies is enough for you to fail a drug screen, but not enough to get you high.
From a moral standpoint, Christians should oppose consumption of any substance in harmful quantities.
Taking a stance from the pulpit against harming our bodies is a very different matter from insisting that there be laws against such things.
I am opposed to legalizing the harder drugs for two reasons:
Firstly they are currently manufactured under unsanitary and unsafe conditions. Government would be legally and morally obligated to regulate these products from the point of manufacture to their sale on the street (to avoid the product being cut with dangerous fillers).
So if this condition of government supervision is met, that puts us, the citizens of our country in the position of regulating the self-administration of toxic substances. Some countries have seen fit to do this. I am not comfortable with it.
Personally, Boyd, although I've never had wine at communion, I would prefer it--depending on the wine. I've had some really good ones and some not so good, and still others that were down right nasty tasting. I don't like grape juice (although I love grapes--especially the seedless green ones) and have to force it down.
Joch,
I won't even smoke regular cigarettes since I care too much about my body--such as it is. Besides, I can't get past the putrid, foul stench. I wouldn't use marijuana even if it was legal. I wouldn't use it even if I had cancer, and my doctor prescribed it.
I'm pretty much in agreement with the trend here - basically "...all things in moderation" and I'm the first to admit that I've gone beyond moderation in the way of food and non-alcoholic drinks. I just never developed a taste for alcohol and though I used to try things on occasion just in an effort to "fit in" I rarely bother anymore and just say "no thanks" and leave it at that.
One thing I will point out though in regards to alcohol (and the principle applies to other areas as well) is that when we make it too easy and too available I believe we take on some additional responsibility for those who lack self control or worse should not drink at all. I believe that one tangible example of "the sins of the father" being passed on is in the area of alcoholism. Some folks are predisposed to alcohol abuse (or gambling problems, kleptomania, and any number of other disorders) in part because of ancestral problems. That's not to say that we all should abstain because of the problems of a few any more than we all need to be dressed because of the problems of a few - we just need to be aware of the potential abuses and be prepared to deal with them.
Hi, thanks for all the great replies! I have began to feel the same as all of you. Sometimes it's hard to understand the grace of Christ. All the lists of do's and dont's accomplish nothing to bring us closer to Jesus. biggrizzlybare
I agree with most of what has been said here. As long as it's used in moderation, alcohol can be benefitual, it's when it's used in excess that problems arise. Yet, that same thing can be said about most if not all things in life.
As far as the marijana question brought up by Jochannan, here's how I feel about it. This is only my personal feeling, although it is influenced by my study of natural health, my opinion is not neccassarily held by natural health practitioners/researchers/students at large.
I do take issue with lighting any substance aflame to inhale the smoke that it sets off. Smoke in the lungs, no matter what the source, damages lung tissues. Marijana in it's natural plant state should be catorgorized as an herb, and thus it's use should be (as you would any other herb) as an ingredient within a larger food item. If used in that way I have no issue with it's use, and the properties that marajana brings to the food item would be preserved in as close to it's natural state as possible, without going through the chemical change reaction that smoking does. Although I have done no studies whatsoever on marajana, it seems to me that marajana muffins would be at least as much as, if not more effective with medical concerns than smoking marajana provides.
With any substance that can be consumed by humans, we should always remember:
Moderation in all things, excess in nothing.
I do take issue with lighting any substance aflame to inhale the smoke that it sets off. Smoke in the lungs, no matter what the source, damages lung tissues. Marijana in it's natural plant state should be catorgorized as an herb, and thus it's use should be (as you would any other herb) as an ingredient within a larger food item. If used in that way I have no issue with it's use, and the properties that marajana brings to the food item would be preserved in as close to it's natural state as possible, without going through the chemical change reaction that smoking does. Although I have done no studies whatsoever on marajana, it seems to me that marajana muffins would be at least as much as, if not more effective with medical concerns than smoking marajana provides.
I agree with most of what you state here Daniel. In fact, I've heard that smoking marijuana puts more tar into your lungs than smoking similar amounts of tobacco.
I do not, however, have issues with smoking marijuana for medicinal use. Here are my reasons...
Inhaling is a much more effective way of getting the chemical into the body than ingesting it. The chemicals take effect much more quickly
Many of the uses around medical marijuana are for cancer victims. Under chemo and radiation treatments, often the patient can not keep food down long enough for the body to digest this. Marijuana is supposed to help with this as well as raise hunger level (munchies?).
Most medications have side effects (just listen to the disclaimers on the pharmaceutical ads). The trick seems to be balancing the positives with the negatives. Take even "harmless" ones such as aspirin. Large doses is, of course, not a good thing. Normal doses relieve pain, thin the blood (good for heart patients). Long term use can cause problems with ulcers, bleeding, etc.
Inhaling smoke sounds like it would have way too many side effects for someone already in fragile health.
I fully expect that a derivative product taken sublingually or by injection would be superior to inhaling smoke.
Tobacco was never intended for daily use. It was strong medicine to be administered by a medicine man for a set purpose and set time or for ceremonial use during the sealing of a treaty, the proverbial "Peace pipe".
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