I heard that C.S.Lewis, a very strong theologian and author, was also a nudist. Is this true and where is this information that we can pull this fact from?
Sorry, nothing from this side of the country. Did a quick search as you probably did long before me and came up with nothing. Consulted my pastor (wifey) and she hadn't heard that either, but doesn't eliminate it from the realm of possibility.
And there walking before him, as if on the other side of a brook, was the Lady herself – walking with her head a little bowed and her hands occupied in plaiting together some blue flowers. She was singing to herself in a low voice but stopped and turned as he hailed her and looked him full in the face.
“I was young yesterday,” she began, but he did not hear the rest of her speech. The meeting, now that it had actually come about, proved overwhelming. You must not misunderstand the story at this point. What overwhelmed him was not in the least the fact that she, like himself, was totally naked. Embarrassment and desire were both a thousand miles away from his experience: and if he was a little ashamed of his own body, that was a shame which had nothing to do with difference of sex and turned only upon the fact that he knew his body to be a little ugly and a little ridiculous. Still less was her colour a source of horror to him. In her own world that green was beautiful and fitting; it was his pasty white and angry sunburn which were the monstrosity. It was neither of these but he found himself unnerved. He had to ask her presently to repeat what she had been saying.
Excerpt was taken from Chapter 5 of: PERELANDRA - The second book in a celebrated space trilogy which begins in OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET and is concluded in THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH.
Copyright 1944 by Clive Staples Lewis ISBN 0-02-086900-2
This does not prove nor disprove Dr. Lewis's active participation in naturism. It does say some interesting things about his attitude toward nudity.
Re: Insight into C.S. Lewis's attitude about nudity
September 18 2008, 1:20 AM
I have never heard that Mr. Lewis was a nudist in any sense, but I read somewhere that he enjoyed an occasional skinnydip with men friends.
However, Perelandra is not the only book in which he speaks positively about nudity. From The Great Divorce:
"Long after that I saw people coming to meet us... Some were naked, some robed. But the naked ones did not seem less adorned, and the robes did not disguise in those who wore them the massive grandeur of muscle and the radiant smoothness of flesh..." (from Chapter III)
"I cannot now remember whether she was naked or clothed. If she were naked, then it must have been the almost visible penumbra of her courtesy and joy which produces in my memory the illusion of a great and shining train that followed her across the happy grass. If she were clothed, then the illusion of nakedness is doubless due to the clarity with which her inmost spirit shone through the clothes..." (from Chapter XII)
We may want to remember, though, that in both of these books the "ordinary moral situation" does not apply. Perelandra is a world before its Fall; The Great Divorce is staged on the edge of Heaven. So it would be hard to deduce from these passages whether Mr. Lewis were open to co-ed social nudity on Earth...
Re: Insight into C.S. Lewis's attitude about nudity
September 18 2008, 6:12 AM
Thanks. Joy was one of those things in which he sought after when he began to realize that joy and God were one and the same. We have joy from moments of excitement, but we have deep joy that comes from within and is everlasting, and that comes from God. We cannot manufacture our joy in a way that comes as it was described as "a great and shining train that followed her across the happy grass."
But all those examples, and I'm sure, a lot more in other books, would give the impression that humanity is missing out on something and that nudity is not something of itself, but a result of something greater and wonderful.
I had a feeling that it may be more of his writings than actual life that gave the impression of accepting nudity. But C.S.Lewis does write based on his view of God and humanity.
Re: Insight into C.S. Lewis's attitude about nudity
September 18 2008, 9:26 AM
Even Moses did not make it to the Promised Land, but God took him to the top of Mount Nebo and allowed him to see what lay ahead for the next generation of faithful.
I can't cite the text, but I recall another of Lewis's essays in which he discussed decency and said that a young woman from the tropics may be considered decent in the context of her society even if she wears just a few shreds of cloth here and there.
Lewis obviously had a firm grasp on the idea that nudity cannot be considered absolutely right or wrong. The context and content of the heart determined the morality of the situation. But a broader reading of Lewis's essays will readily show that he was NOT a moral relativist. It's just that Lewis knew that nudity was God's original plan and that it is not necessary to wear clothing in order to be "decent". Though he did not directly say this, Lewis seems to have implied that we do some things to maintain social harmony and wearing clothing consistent with our culture when we must is part of Christian duty. His remarks about sunburn may also be a tacit admission that our physical vulnerability to the elements may necessitate clothing for much of our daily lives outdoors.
In another essay, which I am unfortunately unable to quote verbatim, Lewis made a strong case for enjoying the innocent pleasures of life without guilt. He wrote that he richly enjoyed his daily baths, reveling in the warmth and comfort of it. He made it clear that we must eschew the aecetism of our Calvinistic and Puritan forebears. Embracing sensual joy is NOT license for self-indulgence nor abuse of the sexual urges.
Re: Insight into C.S. Lewis's attitude about nudity
September 18 2008, 2:56 PM
"I can't cite the text, but I recall another of Lewis's essays in which he discussed decency and said that a young woman from the tropics may be considered decent in the context of her society even if she wears just a few shreds of cloth here and there."
--from Mere Christianity, Book III, Chapter 5, "Sexual Morality."
The other principle you mentioned, Anudymous, is presented in The Screwtape Letters: "[God's] a hedonist at heart...He has filled His world full of pleasures. There are things for humans to do all day long without His minding in the least--sleeping, washing, eating, drinking, making love, playing, praying, working. Everything has to be twisted before it's any use to [demons]."
Perhaps, Boyd, it would be more accurate to say that, according to Lewis, evil is only twisted goodness. And he makes a convincing case for that view...
Thanks for the correction. And yes, since God creates only good, then only good is created. So all things are good. It's out views, our broken glasses, like what happened to Adam and Eve, is whats making goodness evil.
That is why we naturists understand in the light of who we are in Jesus Christ, that what God calls good, we cannot call evil. That is why God does not like sin. But fortunately, according to 2 Cor 5: 19, he does not hold our sins against us.
It's our views we have according to the flesh is what gets us into trouble.
I wrote this on a Christian forum recently:
The more I read 2 Cor 5:18-19, the more sense it makes for our mission on earth.
“18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.”
All things are God’s anyway, and it was God who reconciled all to himself through Jesus.
He gave us the ministry of reconciliation.
And that message is (ver 19)
1. God and Christ are one.
2. He reconciled all things and humanity to himself.
3. He is no longer holding the sins of humanity against them.
4. He told us to go out and tell these people this great news!
Simple!!
We must live a reconciled life that has already been given to us, because our sins are no longer being counted against us! Why are we living as if we are still under the sin of Adam?
Take off those fun house glasses along with our clothes!
Telling sinners that they have no sin and no need to come to Jesus, that they are worry-free and heaven-bound is possibly the greatest lie Satan ever told mankind.
Reconciliation does not mean that our sins were forgiven, it merely takes salvation from a condition of impossibility to possibility
Don't forget the Parable of the Sower. Not all seed will bear fruit!
I'm not saying that we don't sin. We do. But Jesus is more about "taking away the sin of the world" than punishment.
Take another look at the Parable of the Sower. From out perspective, 90% of the world are the weeds. From God's perspective, it's Jesus Christ who takes away the sin of the world.
Read where it says, "The Kingdom of God is like...." what does that mean? Is the Kingdom of God here? If not, then that verse does not apply. But if that does apply, then we will have to assume God is planting in his own field, the Kingdom. Some are good seed, some are not, some fall to the side, some grow abundantly...actually, MOST grow abundantly. God is not finished with this world, and we do not need to worry too much. Spread the good news of his Kingdom and humanities part in it. They can be the weeds or grow good fruit.
I think what confuses people is that we are waiting for the Kingdom of God when Jesus returns. The question is, when does the Kingdom start? Or has it started already?
Jesus overcame the world, he is the King right now, but a King with no kingdom and subjects? We have no problems singing, "This is our Fathers world" but take it out of his hand and say it's Satans world. Either it's Gods world and Satan is still living on this earth lying to people about their participation in God's kingdom, or this is not Gods' world and Jesus has not over come and is not our King.
Perspective, it's all about perspective. We have been seeking the kingdom of God "in the future" instead of right now in our lives and the lives around us.
C.S. Lewis told a story of a village that was beautiful, filled with all kinds of good things, but there were trolls who looked at everything as bad. The good food they ate, according to their perspective, were dung, straw, and the wine was dirty water. They had such a negative view of the world around them that they looked at everything as bad.
We Christians tend to look for the devil in all the details of this world. Remember, God is the only one Omnipresent. Satan is not. So Satan cannot be everywhere. Only good can come from God, so if we see goodness and say "Thats only the devil trying to trick us", we are no better than the trolls who complains about the food saying it's straw and dirty water. 2Cor 5:18, "All things are of God..." (more of the verse below)
Sure, we can be tricked into some trap if we are naive about bad character, and we have to realize they are taking goodness and twisting it into evil. But that is our opportunity for telling them about the good news, that they do not have to live in this darkness, under the bridge with the trolls.
The kingdom of God is like... not will be like. Yes, the world sin, but we can point them to the One who takes away the sin, and has taken it away. Christians often sin worse by denying the power of Jesus. We tend to make Adam stronger than Jesus, or the devil as Jesus' equal.
If you scattered seed in the field, you would scatter it, tend to it, then gather in your OWN field, not someone else's. And then you would scatter it where it will do the most good, with lots of preparation and tilling. Then if any do not grow or got scattered to the wayside, or on rocky ground, it would be far and few in between. 99% of our seed will go to good ground.
BTW, I never said that they do not need to go to Jesus. You read into that.
Jesus DID forgive us all our sins, we just don't believe it and create our sins all over again. Sometimes us Christians are the worst about that.
Thankfully, 2 Cor 5:18-19 "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."
Our ministry is reconciliation, not condemnation, good news, not bad news.
You raise some points worth discussing, but you made so many points that I will have to comment a little bit at a time to them.
Let's imagine that you walk up to someone at CNC or someone you meet in a city park, doesn't matter. Just suppose you find yourself talking to someone and he opens up a bit and reveals that he doesn't believe in Jesus, has no interest in God, that he's basically looking out for number 1 (himself) as much as possible.
So if you follow the principles you outlined, you would simply pat the guy on the back and say, "You'll be fine, God has saved you whether you believe it or not, just keep on living like the devil and God will give you even more of his grace and forgiveness. See you in heaven, buddy!".
Then, as you both walk away, he'll say, "I don't even want to go to heaven. I don't like God or Jesus. I want to go to hell where all my buddies are".
So it's unfortunate that he doesn't know he's a disciple of Christ and heaven-bound, but we'll just let it go because God saved the whole world and he'll eventually be just fine.
One of the problems I find with the "typical" evangelical view of salvation is that it is saving from "Hell".
The challenge is much of the focus of salvation in the Bible is not on "hell" but on God. Not on being saved from "hell" but being saved to follow God, further the Kingdom of God (or Kingdom of Heaven).
Bornnude,
If I did not stress the need for relationship with Jesus in that previous post, I intend to stress it more in subsequent posts. It is equally wrong to presume that God has created relationship with Jesus (salvation)with the unknowing or unwilling.
I spent a long time in Calvinistic type churches and their track record is mixed on the issue of preaching hellfire vs. "taking Jesus as your personal savior". Each church is different and from time to time all of us put the wrong emphasis on things. Thanks for reminding us to turn our eyes upon Jesus!
What's wrong with it, Ramblinman, is that that's not the story Boyd is telling. I do not see Boyd diminishing the need for reconciliation to be saved, both from Hell (including the hell we make for ourselves) and to Heaven (including the heaven God creates in and around us). Yet, sometimes without any words, "planting the seed" may often mean to let the light God refracts through you shine to such a man as you describe, so that he may see there is an attractiveness and a joy in the Gospel of Jesus our Anointed King.
Regarding the parable of the Sower, we often need to "break up the fallow ground;" to plow and harrow the path, dig out the rocks, and root out the thorns. Or even better, to show such a life, either through actions or words, that the "fallow ground" will begin to plow and dig and root out itself--for no one can be hauled against his/her will into God's truly present Kingdom. To do this we may sometimes need to paint a vivid picture of Hell; but the Gospel's heart must always be Love, which God is. Fallow ground has before now longed to be fruit-full, and God has granted the desires of its heart as He promised. (Why do you think I've cultivated the musical gifts God has lent to me? Music is a great way to break up fallow hearts gently.)
I am all for making the gospel message as compelling as possible, as well-reasoned and as loving as possible. However, I simply cannot find biblical support for the following points that Boyd wanted to make:
3. He is no longer holding the sins of humanity against them.
4. He told us to go out and tell these people this great news!
Telling the lost that they have no sin is the work of Satan no matter how pleasant and compelling this lie is.
Telling them that they have the possibility of salvation through what Jesus did is the heart of the gospel.
Whoa buddy!!! You wrote:
"I am all for making the gospel message as compelling as possible, as well-reasoned and as loving as possible."
So sorry to make God compelling! I had no idea we were supposed to do anything less! No wonder Christianity is not very popular in many parts of the world with that kind of outlook!
Then you wrote:
"I simply cannot find biblical support for the following points that Boyd wanted to make:
3. He is no longer holding the sins of humanity against them.
4. He told us to go out and tell these people this great news!"
Here is the biblical support right here:
2 Cor 5:18-19 "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."
And read this one carefully:
Colossians 1:20-22 "...and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—"
First of all, all things have been reconciled, both in earth and heaven, even while we were still alienated and enemies. Jesus did it all on the cross BEFORE we accepted him! Where is our part?
Then Jesus told the disciples what our "Work" is.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
I am NOT saying that all is well and we can go hunky dory into heaven. I have said OVER AND OVER AGAIN I am NOT Saying that!
I am saying that we cannot spend out time in hell so much unless you want to go there to bring people out of it! Heaven is our message, hell is where we preach it! Humanity is already in hell so to speak, so lets not spend time tossing people into hell! It's time to give the good news!
In your example the person in the park who says he doesn't want to go to heaven or even like God, may have that opinion about God because of people who keep telling him that is what God is like. And your not helping here!!
Why should I make it compelling? It already is!!
Is that good news or what?
You find no biblical support? If not there, then there is no salvation for anybody!
You know, I think that part of the confusion comes from the old question of Heavenly time vs. Earthly time. Remember, "...one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (II Peter 3:8) God, from his viewplace in Heaven, might well say that "we were always saved" and ALSO say "we will yet be saved" and "we were saved at a certain time." And in Heaven or Hell, it probably won't matter for a moment or an eon.
