I watched the movie the other night called sicko by Michael Moore. During the course of the movie, I wept and I got angry. I was shocked to see how many other countries do not pay for Health Care. We're told not to request it because of the long lines. Most of the debt I have is because of medical bills. A 911 hero who needs a inhaler pays 120 twice a month. In Cuba the same inhaler cost 5¢. It breaks my heart to SEE so many Americans drowning in medical debt. I think the American people are being used by the medical community. You can find this attitude in the book of Job. Satan tells God that a man will give all that he has in exchange for his life. As I watched this movie I became so angry I couldn't sleep for hours. Has anyone watched this?
Big grizzly bare
Everyone has a right to their own political views. That being said, I would encourage you to do some independent research before swollowing Michael Moore's propaganda. He has an extreme left wing axe to grind and isn't merely presenting "the facts." In other words, he radically slants everything to fit his vision for a socialist world. In conclusion, please remember that this is a Christian naturist web site devoted to this particular subject and not a political forum. Michael
I saw Sicko too. My sense is that even though Mr. Moore might not have had all his facts right, he encouraged the dialogue that's now happening. And I wonder if, in a more reasonable medical system, doctors and nurses and other medical professionals might be less concerned about "incidental" nudity...?
I read this the other day and didn't want to be the first to respond.
One of the attractions of the Obama election was his promises around health care. There are, however, a lot of dynamics involved in health care.
Doctors pour a lot of money into education. Their fees are built so that they can get some of that back. Yes they probably live a better lifestyle than many of us...
Drug companies pour a lot of money into research for the latest drugs and charge Americans more than anywhere else to recoup their investments.
Insurance companies are tasked with keeping health care costs down for their subscribers. At the same time, they get frivolous claims for unnecessary treatments.
None of these entities are non-profit organizations so while doing their jobs, they are trying to keep stockholders happy.
On top of all this, my health care costs keep rising.
Michael, while you are correct in mentioning that Moore is not unbiased in his views (is anybody?) as Joch states, he does get the conversation going.
Maybe along with this movie, we should also watch "Supser size me".
"Michael, while you are correct in mentioning that Moore is not unbiased in his views (is anybody?) as Joch states, he does get the conversation going.
Maybe along with this movie, we should also watch "Supser size me"."
I would agree that we should keep political agendas off this board. Boyd has done a stupendous effort to keep this going over the years and drifting off into other topics just dillutes his work. I will say that as humans because of the Fall its impossible to be comepletely free of prejudice and bias in anything we do such as documentaries. This person is too liberal, this person is too conservative, etc., etc. I'm sure some viewers thought the old "White Papers" documentaries that CBS used to air were communist propoganda. Yes, there are alot of problems in the world and Michael Moore at least gets a debate going, but I'd prefer it was a debate on another board. There's enough problems in discussing petty doctorine issues going on here.
Michael
I disagree with you, when you said this is not an appropriate topic for the site. I will give two reasons.
Good health was once a strong theme in naturism. This is a attitude that naturism has drifted away from. I believe one of the reasons why America needs the presence of naturist is to pull the country back to a better place. As evidenced in this movie, America is on the fast track to the most unhealthy state in history. I think this is a topic we should be concerned with, as a matter of fact it should be one of the things that we use to pull people to our way of thinking.
Second, I also refer to scripture in my post. I believe Health Care in this country represents a spirit of bondage. Out of the mouth of Satan, he said, "a man will give all that he has in exchange for his life". In America, a man works his whole life to save some retirement. When he gets older he is diagnosed with cancer. Eventually the hospital owns his house, his land, and his money. One the marks of Christianity has been to fight for the right of the individual. It was Christians that had slavery abolished. I think it is the job of the Christian naturist to change the way America sees health, and the body. I also believe that Christian naturist should be the voices crying out against the bondage of high fashion, porn, eating disorders, ECT.
I am sorry I offended you. This is something I'm very passionate about. My family has no insurance, it has hurt us greatly. I have carried my wife in my arms into an emergency room, only to be turned away. My family and I have suffered through sickness that could have been healed with a $9.00 antibiotic, but we could not afford the $150 Dr. visit. I do not agree with Michael Moore's agenda, as I'm very conservative myself. But if things are going to change, it will have to be a grass roots effort. The medical community will not change it, neither will the government. There's just too much money to be made.
If I was wrong in bringing this up, I apologize. When we talk about so many frivolous things on here, and I was so upset about the movie, I wanted to share this with my friends.
Big grizzly bare
"In conclusion, please remember that this is a Christian naturist web site devoted to this particular subject and not a political forum."
Something has bothered me ever since I read those words, and I finally realized what it is: It almost seems as if the poster was trying to cut off a dialogue that looked as if it wouldn't fit with his political views. To my shame, I've done similar things, and here and now I repent of them.
On this forum we have enjoyed, and sometimes suffered, debates that had little or nothing to do with Christian naturism. I think if we were to limit our topics too severely, it would make this a much quieter and sadder forum.
Look everyone. First of all, this is a Christian Naturism Forum. It can be about Christianity and about Naturism and about both.
Something The Church has just about forgotten is that we are responsible for taking care of the fatherless and widows. The Social Security has all but taken this responsibility out of our hands, and we allowed it.
WE need to repent and take responsibility back where God can work through us (we work alongside God) in taking care of our own.
Remember in the book of Acts where everyone wanted in on what the Church was doing. They took care of one another, and nobody was lacking. They were not rich by any means, and they were not trying to be "Church Socialists" either.
It is very unfortunate that the Socialist countries ruined the name and image of Social Community and turned Communism into a political trash heap.
I am not saying we should all be in a Commune by any means (lest we really become a "colony") but we should bring Christianity out in the open for the world to see. If Nudists can do this, so much the better! Can you imagine how nudists can "shame" The Church into doing what it was meant to do?
This is a fine example of Reconciliation in Action. We reach out to the world and let them know that God is including us in His work. And we begin with our naturist community.
We forget that when we are on this board, we are Christians carrying out a mission, and one of the major ways we do this is by naturism. We help new naturists come out and be what they feel God is calling them to be.
On other boards, they tend to get very strict about "naturism" vs "everything else". Christianity is so part of our lives that everything else is included in Christianity. There is no "my job" apart from, "Christianity" or naturism apart from Christianity. We cannot speak of enjoying a good dinner without knowing God is sharing that with us through Jesus Christ. It is not a separate thing. Our fellowship on this board IS Jesus in fellowship (Communion) with us.
So if we see a brother or sister hurt by our social issues, it's because Jesus is hurt about them too, and is sharing that with us. We are responding to the holy spirit, and any good that is done in this world is because Jesus is sharing his life with us. Good can only come from God, so any good in this world is because God has shared his love through those that are expressing it.
Now, we do need to have temperance when it comes to how we carry out the work of God. So to start condemning and making an ugly scene about things we see wrong may not be the best way to approach a situation. But we do need to be angry about these social injustices, but not at the expense of love and mercy. Be angry, but do not sin.
We will never know what you (the participants of this board) are going though in life if nothing else is said but naturism. "Speaking of naturism, I lost my job and home" or something like that? Lets get real here.
At the top of the Forum I left a note to the readers that we are Christians first, so Christian topics are discussed here. And to be socially conscious is very important to Christianity as long as we are doing so with Christ (with reference to Gal.5:22).
Mother Teresa once said that we should not pray that God walk with us, for we may not be walking the right path. We should pray that we walk with God, for he is always on the right path.
I second the notion of the value of a variety of topics within the umbrella of community. In the New Testament (I believe it was Acts) the early church was described as "having all things in common" and I doubt those things only consisted of "stuff". I have no doubt that they poured their hearts out to one another and shared comfort on multiple levels as Jesus was lived out in their lives.
As for the health care industry pretty much everyone agrees that a bunch of stuff is broken but there is a lot of contention about how to go about fixing it. There are just so many interconnected problems and the fact is that the quality of health care will always be about money as it has been for many, many years.
Socialized medicine certainly isn't the answer - it just "dumbs down" the quality of health care and the rich will still find a way to get better health care somewhere else. Folks these days are living longer and longer but it comes at a price in terms of expensive drugs and expensive equipment. In the old days most folks didn't live long enough to die of cancer - life was too hard and health care wasn't that good. Other complications include excessive litigation requiring expensive malpractice insurance and of course a medical education is atrociously expensive. There are exceptions but I believe that most practitioners are just trying to make a decent living and aren't out to gouge people. I could go on and on but I think you get the drift.
Here's one group that is trying to do some sort of cost sharing that uninsured folks might want to look into: http://medi-share.org/
There may be other similar outfits and I haven't really investigated this one so don't take this as an endorsement. It's just an example of a concept I heard about years ago. The insurance companies are out to make a profit and statistically if enough folks banded together and contributed those premiums towards cost sharing they would come out ahead and be able to keep average costs down a lot better.
I love the concept as shared on the home page but when I dig further into the site they've got a much fine print as an insurance company without any of the guarantees. It would be nice if someone could implement the concept with a bit more faith.
At least this topic has brought active discussion to this board.
Several good points have been made.
Healthcare in the US is expensive. The US bears the burden on much of the research and development of medications and procedures in the world. We also set the highest standard in the world for safety not only through government regulation but through litigation.
Healthcare in the US is available. I have lived in and commuincate with people who still live in countries that have socialized healthcare systems. I do not hear complaints about the quality of care but I do hear constant complaints about availability of care. One of the reasons the Canadian system works it because they can send patients to US hospital for emergency and necessary proceedures. When I lived in FL the Canadian "Snow Birds" would have elective procedures done there and send the bill back to Canada. They chose to do this because there were multi-year waiting lists to have the same procedure done in Canada, the Canadian health care system outlawed this practice in the 1990s. I work with many veterans in our area, the care they receive is good but many experience complications because of the long waits to get through the system.
There is a need for the Christian community to respond. I live in a very rural area but within a 45 minute drive there is a free or low cost clinic set up by the Christian community to provide health care for those in need. Through our local churches we also help many people in our area with health care costs and try to find affordable assistance for them, with some success. We are often criticized for this because we help many people that some in our community label as outsiders and unworthy. These same people will refuse help because of pride.
There is need for personal responsibility. The Naturist community can be linked to an interest in health. The number one cause of physical sickness in the US is obesity. In most all cases this is a self inflicted condition. I live in the state with the highest smoking and the highest cancer rate. Smoking is a choice.
YES, Our system has its problems, BUT we need to continue to bearing the costs to keep safety and availability at high levels. As Naturist we become more aware of or bodies, this should motivate us take personal responibility to keep ourselves as healthy as possible, both by avoiding the bad habits and by staying active. As a Christians we need to continue helping those in need where we can.
WalkingBare wrote: There is a need for the Christian community to respond. I live in a very rural area but within a 45 minute drive there is a free or low cost clinic set up by the Christian community to provide health care for those in need. Through our local churches we also help many people in our area with health care costs and try to find affordable assistance for them, with some success. We are often criticized for this because we help many people that some in our community label as outsiders and unworthy. These same people will refuse help because of pride.
That brought up some interesting thoughts. I was listening to some messages about the "Ancient Future" from Liquid Church in New Jersey. In the message, he was mentioning why Christianity grew so quickly in the early centuries. One was healthcare.
He said that as a plague would spread through a town or city, people would leave... Except for the Christians. They would stay and nurse the sick back to health.
They were also the ones who would pick up the babies left to die (mostly young girls) and raise them.
This caused a lot of growth from those that were shown compassion but, in the case of the baby girls, also had the effect of having most of the marriageable women as followers of Christ.
I wonder what the churches would do today if a plague hit... The rumors I've heard for a bird flu pandemic is localized containment through quarantine. How would Christians react? Would we share our resources with those that didn't have any? Would we nurse those who were sick back to health? Too often, I am not sure.
I also have witnessed weight gain as a side effect form medications. This is one of the reasons that I avoid the modern medical community whenever possible.
I am one who struggles with my weight, not at the appearance level as much as the health level. I have experienced the symtoms of type 2 diabetes and the negative affects on my joints. While I understand that in some cases people have glandular problems and I can empathize with them.
Our modern lifestyles lead more of us into this problem. We come home mentaly exhausted from sedintary jobs and instead of going for a walk to regenerate, we turn on the tv. We run the kids to basketball, soccer and baseball, then we sit and watch them play or practice, we started a parent walking program at our soccer practices. Our modern diet is calorically dense with small snacks having as many calories as full meals. I cannot find an nutritional positives associated with soda yet I talk to people have developed their tastes so that is the only thing they drink.
One of the worst places I visit are church dinners where the person stuggling with weight issues will be encouraged to have some more or to try this, "we'll just bless the calories out of it". The diabetic will be offered the piece of pie and is told "it doesen't count if you eat it at church". I have witnessed these things on many occasions at several churches. Many of these same people will condemn others for drinking one beer on a hot day or with a pizza. They will claim that a glass of wine will keep you out of heaven, to the point of having to use grape juice for communion. They either ignore or ignorant of the fact that gluttony is also discouraged in the scriptures.
"The number one cause of physical sickness in the US is obesity. In most all cases this is a self inflicted condition."
In the last two decades or so a network of "fat activists" (that's what they call themselves, so I'm not insulting anybody here) has developed, and begun to challenge statements like those. First, they have directly challenged the statistics behind these attitudes as lacking in scientific accuracy and not accounting for correlating factors. Second, even if the physical facts about obesity and poor health are accurate, they theorize that it's mostly because of prejudice and discrimination against obese people; they point out that minorities--people of color, with "alternative" sexual orientations, etc.--suffer similar poor-health statistics. And finally and most convincingly, they assert that whether or not obesity itself actually does result in poor health, diets, especially some of the radical ones like Adkins that deliberately unbalance food intake in one way or another, are far worse on one's physical and psychological health. (Information from "Women En Large," a book by Laurie Toby Edison and Debbie Notkin.)
I don't think we who aren't obese can understand just how much physical, emotional and spiritual stress our larger brothers and especially our larger sisters suffer. I've known a number of them, and believe me, they suffer more than we can imagine, nor are they always responsible for their own conditions. (Several common psychotropic drugs induce massive weight gain as a side effect. And before you ask, I've seen it happen to people I know.) It's past time for a call to show God's grace, mercy and love toward them and, as the Cherokee proverb says, for "walking a mile in their moccasins," or at least going the extra mile with them.
"The number one cause of physical sickness in the US is obesity. In most all cases this is a self inflicted condition."
In the last two decades or so a network of "fat activists" (that's what they call themselves, so I'm not insulting anybody here) has developed, and begun to challenge statements like those. First, they have directly challenged the statistics behind these attitudes as lacking in scientific accuracy and not accounting for correlating factors. Second, even if the physical facts about obesity and poor health are accurate, they theorize that it's mostly because of prejudice and discrimination against obese people; they point out that minorities--people of color, with "alternative" sexual orientations, etc.--suffer similar poor-health statistics. And finally and most convincingly, they assert that whether or not obesity itself actually does result in poor health, diets, especially some of the radical ones like Adkins that deliberately unbalance food intake in one way or another, are far worse on one's physical and psychological health. (Information from "Women En Large," a book by Laurie Toby Edison and Debbie Notkin.)
I don't think we who aren't obese can understand just how much physical, emotional and spiritual stress our larger brothers and especially our larger sisters suffer. I've known a number of them, and believe me, they suffer more than we can imagine, nor are they always responsible for their own conditions. (Several common psychotropic drugs induce massive weight gain as a side effect. And before you ask, I've seen it happen to people I know.) It's past time for a call to show God's grace, mercy and love toward them and, as the Cherokee proverb says, for "walking a mile in their moccasins," or at least going the extra mile with them.
My insurance pays at best 90%. That might sound like a lot until you figure that on just one medical bill alone I owe nearly $2,700, and I have at least 15 different medical bills. I stopped counting when I reach $13,000 and have no idea how much I own on just my medical bills. I do know I'm not able to pay them all, and some have been turned into collection. I went bankrupt about 4 years ago and can't do that again any time soon. Besides, the laws on bankruptcy have changed for the worse, and it's a lot more difficult to get out from under a huge debt.
Jon-Marc, your situation demonstrates just how badly we need to fix the health-care system in this country, or at least fix our attitudes about health care. You need the medical help; you can't pay for it; something needs to be done. If nothing else, those of us able to help you should, as much as we can, and the rest of us can pray for you.
Father God, I believe we all agree that our US health-care system is imperfect, and some of us know how it can add its own burdens to already sick and stressed people. Please, Father, show us all, especially our political and corporate leaders, how we can make our system work for everyone, including those who can never afford the excellent health care that should be available to all Your children. In Jesus' name, Amen.
I don't know how the original post of this response got posted out of order. before the post that it was responding to. I am trying a reposting to get it where it will make some sense.
I also have witnessed weight gain as a side effect form medications. This is one of the reasons that I avoid the modern medical community whenever possible.
I am one who struggles with my weight, not at the appearance level as much as the health level. I have experienced the symtoms of type 2 diabetes and the negative affects on my joints. While I understand that in some cases people have glandular problems and I can empathize with them.
Our modern lifestyles lead more of us into this problem. We come home mentaly exhausted from sedintary jobs and instead of going for a walk to regenerate, we turn on the tv. We run the kids to basketball, soccer and baseball, then we sit and watch them play or practice, we started a parent walking program at our soccer practices. Our modern diet is calorically dense with small snacks having as many calories as full meals. I cannot find an nutritional positives associated with soda yet I talk to people have developed their tastes so that is the only thing they drink.
One of the worst places I visit are church dinners where the person stuggling with weight issues will be encouraged to have some more or to try this, "we'll just bless the calories out of it". The diabetic will be offered the piece of pie and is told "it doesen't count if you eat it at church". I have witnessed these things on many occasions at several churches. Many of these same people will condemn others for drinking one beer on a hot day or with a pizza. They will claim that a glass of wine will keep you out of heaven, to the point of having to use grape juice for communion. They either ignore or ignorant of the fact that gluttony is also discouraged in the scriptures.
Hi every one Im back on line again.
I am a nurse, speciallizing in Mental health rehabilitation. My clients have the problem of negative symptoms of their illness and then on top of this their medication also causes teir metabolic rates to become low. This means they put on weight faster than the average person. Some also have damage to their parietal lobe in their brain. This means that they are allways hungry even when they are full!! They eat to the point of throwing up if not stopped. The other difficulty is that they are also driven to the point of breaking into others' kitchens to steal food.
Away from work!! A few years ago I found out that I had an intolerance to many foods and as a result I stopped eating most breads, all potatoe, Chocolate and any thing with cows milk. The only thing I can have of cows milk is fetta cheese and yoghurt. As a result I have lost a lot of weight, would you believe 30 kilograms!!! Now I feel a lot better so I can do much morer physically so I am loosing weight even more!! Soon I will be down to just over what the insurance companies say my weight should be for my height.
We do have a universal health systen here in Australia as well as a private health system and this seems to work reAL WELL.
Tevita
