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The true Church is more inclusive than your church.

June 27 2009 at 1:51 AM
Tomas  (Login TomasSedlacek)


Response to Tomas, your fundamental error is that you have become a church unto yourself.

 
It includes many denominations, not only your RCC, but also Lutherans, Baptists, INC, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., also many non-denominational Christians, it includes all who have repented and believe correctly all beliefs necessary for salvation. That is my church and that is hopefully also your church, if you are saved.

Beatrice:
You have rejected the church founded by Jesus and made yourself a church.
You reject the magisterium or teaching authority of the church Jesus founded and reserved for yourself the authority to interpret the scriptures yourself.

Who gave you authority to interpret the scriptures? Nobody.

Tomas:
I am in the church founded by Jesus. RCC is just one of the splinters of the church.
God gave me the authority to interpret the scriptures. All Christians have the authority. But of course nobody interprets the Bible perfectly, we just have to try our best. Look at the Bereans. They searched the Bible, interpreting it of course. They too had the authority, not led by the apostles yet, but already led by God to understand and enter the church.
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Beatrice:
If you are to be one with Christ, you must also be one with the Catholic Church. (John 17-22). For one to gather in the name of Christ he must also gather in the name of the Church. Christ not only gave the power to bind and loose, He also commanded a oneness with Him and His Church, “ And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one.”

First and foremost, Christ established a Church, not Scripture. Scripture is the product of God's inspiration at work in His Church and so it cannot be divorced from her and understood properly outside of her. To the Church belongs the authority to teach what Scripture means to us, there is no authority granted to individuals to do this.

The Scripture itself is but a dead letter calling for a divine interpreter; it is not arranged in systematic form like a creed or catechism. It is often obscure and hard to understand, as St. Peter says of the Epistles of St. Paul (2 Peter 3:16, Acts 8:30-31). It is open to many a false interpretation. Moreover, a number of revealed truths have been handed down by divine tradition only.

Tomas:
The tradition was temporary, until Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 4:6 not to go beyond what is written. After that, church tradition was no longer guided by God, so it kept changing over the centuries. Current RCC tradition is very different on many issues from the tradition of 2nd century. But already the 2nd century tradition was different from the original tradition, as they forgot they are to be guided by the Bible alone, and started making new traditions.
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Beatrice:
Luther once stated that the Bible could be interpreted by everyone. But when others denied his teaching, the Bible became "a heresy book" most obscure and difficult to understand. Finally he said "There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads."

Tomas:
That is normal, because nobody interprets the Bible perfectly. But some parts of the Bible should be clear to everyone.
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Beatrice:
Here are some of your misinterpretations Tomas:
"Call no one father on the earth." So what do you call the man who contributed his seed to your mother?

Tomas:
Naturally Jesus was not talking about biological fathers, but about spiritual fathers. But the RCC ignores that. Tell me, how do you obey this commandment? Or do you think it is irrelevant? Or not for today?
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Beatrice:
"Someone who is blameless, husband of one wife." Does Paul himself have a wife? Was John the Apostle married?

Tom:
Paul was not married, but he was not an elder. The command is for elders, not apostles. I don't know if John was married, if he was not, he never became an elder. Elders have to have one wife, also deacons, and bishops. Peter was eligible to become a bishop, because he was married. Paul was not eligible.
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Beatrice:
"But we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood." Jesus says "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." The council of Jerusalem prohibited eating of meat and blood "polluted by idols" meaning offered as sacrifice to idols so as not to scandalized Jewish Christians. Therefore if they were not sacrificed to idols, they are not prohibited.

Later on Paul relaxed this rule too because idols are nothing anyway. (1Cor 8:4; 10:19)

Tomas:
It does not say blood polluted by idols. It says "from things polluted by idols... and from blood". So only the first of the four commandments is about idols. And Paul did not relax this rule, he just explained it, we don't need to inquire if it was sacrificed to idols. But if we know it was, we have to obey this commandment of the Jerusalem council.
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Beatrice:
"You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow to them or serve them." What God prohibits is idolatry. But God wants his house to be decorated. See the statues in the Temple of Solomon, God instructed to be built. http://www.templemount.org/solomon.html Statues are visual aids and representational arts that aid in devotion.

Tomas:
The Temple statues were not for bowing to them, they were just symbolic. But you bow to your statues. That makes them idols.
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Beatrice:
So Tomas, you think you know better than Jesus. You think you can interpret the Scripture better than the church authorized by Jesus to teach?

Tomas:
Jesus knows better than me, but also better than you. The church is authorized to teach doctrines necessary for salvation, it is infallible on these. But on other issues we should try our best to interpret the Bible, and not let anyone cloud our minds with human tradition.

 
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  1. Following the logic of your argument, the bishop must have a wife and children too. - Beatrice77 on Jul 3, 3:10 AM
    1. That's right. So your Benedict is not a valid bishop. - Tomas on Jul 4, 2:05 AM
      1. Where does it say that Peter had at least two children? - Beatrice77 on Jul 4, 2:20 PM
        1. It is proven by the fact that he became a bishop. - Tomas on Jul 9, 3:52 PM
      2. St. James was bishop of Jerusalem. How many children did he have? - Beatrice77 on Jul 4, 2:40 PM
      3. St. James was bishop of Jerusalem. How many children did he have? - Beatrice77 on Jul 4, 2:40 PM
        1. At least 2. - Tomas on Jul 9, 4:03 PM
      4. Bishop must have children to be qualified? If his wife is infertile, - Beatrice77 on Jul 5, 6:16 AM
        1. If she is infertile, then he cannot become a bishop, - Tomas on Jul 9, 4:10 PM
      5. So even Jesus cannot qualify as bishop for he was not married and had no children. - Beatrice77 on Jul 7, 3:50 PM
        1. Jesus had titles much superior to bishop. - Tomas on Jul 9, 4:18 PM
      6. For that matter even Paul and unmarried apostles like John could not qualify - Beatrice77 on Jul 7, 3:58 PM
        1. That's right, Paul was not a bishop. - Tomas on Jul 9, 4:25 PM
     
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