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Re: Faith does not come from God; neither is faith a gift from God.

May 31 2016 at 11:09 AM
Michael  (Login tong2012)


Response to Faith does not come from God; neither is faith a gift from God.

 
Scriptures speaks of faith as such: "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).

Faith, as can be learned from this scripture, pertains to things not seen. It is the EVIDENCE of things unseen. This means, that, faith comes, when there is nothing with which man may see with his eyes, nor touch, smell, hear, or taste, that he may believe. As such, the man may have faith, which is the very substance of the things that he can't see, touch, smell, hear, and taste - the evidence of such things.

INCQUISITOR:

Can you tell us what are the "things hoped for" and "things unseen?"

ME:

Hebrews 11:1

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

This verse simply tells us what faith is as understood in the phrase "Now faith is". It does not talk or refer to anything but that of what in general faith is. The things hoped for and things unseen are the essential elements of faith. It means that, if someone speaks of having hope for some things and firmly believes its fulfillment as though these things are right before his very eyes as real, what he have is what faith is. Paul elsewhere said of hope, "but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" As you can see, hope is an essential element of faith, and since hope pertains to that which is unseen, as such, so it is with faith. And so the verse says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Hebrews 11:3
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

The verse says, "By faith we understand". This verse therefore tells us that by faith we understand. We understand what? Things that we ordinarily don't understand and could not understand. Like what? Let's take the example in the verse, such as that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

So, we learn here that we understand things that we ordinarily don't understand and could not understand by faith. And such things are, relative to scriptures, things about the invisible God.

Now, you ask "Can you tell us what are the "things hoped for" and "things unseen?"

There are many INCquisitor. One is, that Jesus Christ will come again. Another is, That Jesus Christ will give me eternal life. So, the things hoped for and the things unseen depends on what faith the person have.
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Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom.10:17). Not by anything else.

Now, faith COMES, it says. Here are some questions:

1. Where do you think it comes from?
2. Does it come from you, from someone else, or from God?
3. If you say faith comes from you, can you expound on that?
4. If you say faith comes from someone else, can you expound on that?
5. If you say faith comes from God, can you expound on that?

INCQUISITOR:

Your understanding of the word "come" is different from mine. By taking the verse as a whole, I understand the word "come" to mean that faith results from HEARING the word of God.

Apostle Paul makes this clear when he said, "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent" (Rom. 10:13-15)?

So then, faith can only result from HEARING the word of God FROM a preacher whom God has SENT.

God SENT Jesus into the world that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16; c.f. John 8:42; 17:3).

Jesus told his disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples into all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all the things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19). "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

ME:

"Faith cometh by hearing". It means that, for one to have faith, he must hear. And what is there to hear, except the words coming from someone. And if we are talking of faith in God, so we are referring to hearing the words of God. And so, then we must have to hear the words of God, not the words of anybody else. By such, faith in God can come to the hearer. And if the hearer believes God's words, then his hearing the words of God have resulted then to the hearer having faith, faith in God.

You said "So then, faith can only result from HEARING the word of God FROM a preacher whom God has SENT."

The Father have sent the Son to the world, and in time, the Son sent the HS to His apostles to dwell in them and be their paracletos, to teach them all things, and bring to their remembrance all things that Jesus said to them, and will testify of Him. The apostles were sent by Jesus to be His witnesses and preach these to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures clearly speak of as being sent to preach, but the named apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Himself to preach the gospel. But then, I praise God that, He have cause and inspired scriptures to be written. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard the one God have sent, that is, the Son, Jesus Christ.
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Scriptures clearly say, faith comes by hearing the word of God. By hearing the the word OF God, it says. As such faith comes from God. And if it comes from God, we need to hear God. And we can hear God through His words. And His words are written, in scriptures. If you can't read, faith can come to you by having somebody read it for you, or by listening to one who reads scriptures. If you can read, read scriptures and faith can come to you.

If somebody tells you that, you are not to read scriptures, then he is a deceiver and is against God.
If somebody tells you that, you can read scriptures, but must not interpret it, then he is a deceiver and is against God.

INCQUISITOR:

What you are saying is DIFFERENT from what apostle Paul says in Romans 10:13-15. Apostle Paul specifies from WHOM we should HEAR the word of God. And apostle Paul provides hints on how to know when a preacher is SENT or not.

In 1 Cor. 2:13 apostle Paul wrote, "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, COMPARING spiritual things with spiritual." A preacher SENT from God COMPARES spiritual things with spiritual.

In 2 Cor. 11:3-4 apostle Paul wrote: "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches ANOTHER Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it." A preacher SENT from God preaches the SAME Jesus, the SAME spirit and the SAME gospel that the apostles preached.

In Galatians 1:6-8, apostle Paul wrote: "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." A preacher SENT from God preaches the SAME gospel that Christ and the apostles preached.

ME:

It's not DIFFERENT INCquisitor, but is exactly what apostle Paul says. As I have explained, the apostles were the ones sent by the Lord Jesus Christ to be His witnesses and preach to the whole world. Now, today, Jesus is in heaven, and the apostles are dead. There were no other else, after the apostles, that scriptures speak of as being sent to preach, but the apostles. It is them who were commissioned by Himself to preach the gospel. But then, I praise God that, He have cause and inspired scriptures to be written. In them we can read the preaching of the apostles, which is tantamount to having heard the one God have sent, that is, the Son, Jesus Christ.

Let me pick up my point from the scriptures "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

This is a clear reminder and warning of Paul to the Christians in Galatia. That the gospel that they have preached to them in the beginning is the gospel, the true gospel I may say. He greatly emphasizes this to the point of saying that if anyone, even they (he and the other apostles) or even an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel other than what they have preached to them then, Paul said "let him be accursed". Now, what is significant about this? As I have pointed out, we should always go back to scriptures when somebody preaches to you and claims that what they are preaching is the gospel of Christ. For, in the scriptures, we can find the gospel that the apostles preached that they were commissioned and sent to preach. In short, we don't get to readily and easily believe what others preach, but rather, go to the inspired scriptures and read about what they say and preach if it is in keeping with the gospel that the apostles preached, and believe what is there in scriptures, and not be deceived because of our lack of diligence.
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Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

INCQUISITOR:

Most MISINTERPRET this verse to mean that "faith is the gift from God." Apostle Paul writes, "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is the "thing HOPED for" and the kingdom of God is the "thing unseen" for which "faith is the substance and evidence (Heb. 11:1) respectively.

ME:

Regarding the "thing hoped for" and the "thing unseen", read my discussion about this at the top segment of this post.

With regards to Ephesians 2:8-9, let's see here the correct interpretation by going through the verse:

"For by grace you have been saved". This phrase tells of the Christian that he have been saved. And how? By grace, Paul says.

What does Paul mean in saying that the Christian have been saved "by grace"? We get to understand that in the following phrase "through faith". Now, Paul says elsewhere to the Christians in Rome concerning God's promise that He have spoken to Abraham, "it is of faith that it might be according to grace". So, we can see that concerning grace, faith is in view, not anything else. The next that Paul says in the verse in conjunction to this, he said "and that not of yourselves". What does that mean? It means that the truth that the Christians have been saved by grace through faith, points to them, that their having been saved then, was not because of themselves, such as not because of works that they have done, which is of themselves. We can see this in verse 9, where Paul says "not of works". This shows us then, which is the point of this thread in the OP, that faith comes from God, so that, because it is from God, it is not from us.

Now, Paul said "it is the gift of God". What is the "it" referring to? From the verse, it can easily be understood that the "it" refers to the Christian's salvation ("have been saved"). It does not refer to faith, for it is not what is in view in the verse, rather, the salvation of the Christian is what is in view. So, what Paul is saying in the verse, is that, salvation is God's gift to the Christian. Now, we know that salvation means eternal life. We can see this in the statement of Paul, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.".

Thank you for commenting on Ephesians 2:8-9. It opened the door for me to show you that salvation is a gift. Do you know what that means?


 
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Responses

  1. Faith is the result of hearing, believing and obeying the gospel of Christ. - INCquisitor on Jun 19, 2016, 11:12 AM
    1. ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Jun 21, 2016, 9:25 AM
      1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Jul 17, 2016, 10:49 AM
        1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Jul 19, 2016, 1:43 PM
          1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 2, 2017, 6:47 PM
            1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 15, 2017, 4:51 AM
              1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 15, 2017, 10:49 AM
                1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 16, 2017, 8:13 AM
                  1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 16, 2017, 3:46 PM
                    1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 17, 2017, 2:02 PM
                      1. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 17, 2017, 7:10 PM
                      2. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 18, 2017, 4:27 AM
                      3. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 22, 2017, 4:08 PM
                      4. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 23, 2017, 3:28 AM
                      5. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 23, 2017, 2:39 PM
                      6. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on Apr 24, 2017, 4:36 AM
                      7. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on Apr 30, 2017, 10:35 AM
                      8. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on May 3, 2017, 5:50 AM
                      9. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - INCquisitor on May 7, 2017, 10:40 AM
                      10. Re: ara he pistis ex akoes, he de akoe dia rhematos Christou. - Michael on May 20, 2017, 3:50 AM
     
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